Frigate Diana by RossR - OcCre - 1:85

[RossR]

I have recently completed my first model ship, HMS Beagle by Occre.  I am now starting my second, Frigate Diana, also from Occre.  I have decided to document this build with a build log.  I am hoping to get feedback and advice from more experienced modelers and to hopefully be a source of information to other beginners.   Some of the members that post on this site are meticulous about being as historically accurate as possible.  While I respect the time and effort that they put into researching and building their models, I am less concerned with this aspect of the hobby.  For me it is about the relaxation and satisfaction I get out of building the model and the aesthetic of the final result. 

 

While I am pleased with the overall result of my first model, I am looking forward to improving on my second build. One area that I am focused on is the first layer of the planking.  I am planning on installing the first layer of the planking using some of the techniques that I have read about on this web site.  This may be overkill since I am still planning on adding the second layer of planking, but I am viewing it as practice for someday building a model that only has a single layer of planking.  

 

I am also hoping to be more precise on items like the trim on the deck railings and the masts and other deck features.  My rigging got better as I progressed on my first model, and I hope to make all of the rigging better on this model.  I am also hoping to learn more about the proper terminology for the various parts of the ship, especially the rigging.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this build log and please add comments and questions about my work.   

 

 

The parts were in great shape except for one of the ship's wheels had two broken spokes.  Occre is really good about replacing broken parts and makes the process pretty easy.

 

The laser cut parts are all in good condition and nothing is warped.  

 

 

Occre provides over 100 pages of instructions and plans including detailed rigging plans.

 

 

I hope the have be basic frame assembled in a few days and will post on my progress.

 

[RossR]

I have the frame assembled.  I used some Lego blocks clamped on to the false keel to keep each frame piece square while the glue dried.  I used regular wood glue to glue the frame pieces together.  

 

I find that Occre does a really good job with their laser cutting.   I didn't have any issues with pieces fitting together properly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The hole for the bowsprit on the front frame piece is not contoured to properly accept the bowsprit.   The instructions say to use a 10mm drill after the hull is planked to drill out the hole properly.  I found this difficult on my HMS Beagle, because it was difficult to know if you were drilling into the slot on the false keel without making it bigger.  I chose to simply use a file to create the proper contour on the frame piece so the bowsprit will fit properly.  I will need to also file the hull planks after they are installed.

 

 

 

Next step is to plank and install the deck pieces.  I enjoy this step.  It is the first step that completes a part of the ship that will be seen on the completed model, so if it feels like progress as opposed to just prep work assembling the frame that won't be seen.   Hopefully I have something to post soon on my  progress with the deck.  

[RossR]

As I start to plan the planking of the decks, I am trying to decide if I want to include treenails on my deck.  The plans from Occre instruct the builder to simply use pencil marks to represent the treenails.  I do not care for the look of that am considering other options.  The plans also call for a single strip of planking to run the length of the deck with a pencil line to indicate were one plank board ends and another begins.  I am planning on not using the pencil marks for this either and will cut the plank pcs into smaller strips so there will be an actual line between the plank pieces.  At a scale of 1:85 I am a little concerned that anything I add will be too big.  I know there will be other things that are out of scale such as the belay pins and the thickness of the linen sails provided with the kit, but I worry that due to the large quantity of treenails on the deck they would be too much of a focal point if out of scale.  Does anyone know what diameter the treenails would have been on a ship in this era.  If they were an inch in diameter that would mean they should be about .3 millimeters on my model.  I can get drill bits close to that size, but what material would I use to fill the holes.  Would it look good to fill them with wood filler? Has anyone tried this?

 

I am not opposed to skipping the treenails on the deck if I don't think I can add any that look good.  

 

I would love to hear other's thoughts on this and what you have done on models of a similar scale.

 

Thanks

[OllieS]

I have used a black fine liner pen .1mm

You just lightly dab to make the smallest of marks. And it is quick and easy, 'dab dab dab dab' where two planks meet.

To me this looks fine but I don't actually know how accurate an approximation it is.

I also worry about the width of planks, the standard 5mm strip seems too wide to me and I have experimented with cutting them in half.

[RossR]

Thanks for the info.  The planks on this model 3 mm wide.  I agree that 5 mm seems too wide, well over a foot at this scale.  

[RossR]

I have completed lining the deck pieces.  The instructions called for gluing a single strip the entire length of the base and then using a pencil to create the appearance of caulking along the length of the boards and across the boards.  I didn't care for the look of this technique and opted to cut the boards into shorter pieces and I used a pencil to darken the edges of the boards.  I think this creates a more subtle look for the caulking. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I used contact cement to attach the lime wood pieces to the plywood bases.  Prior to my first model I had never used contact cement.  Occre has a series of instruction videos on YouTube for the HMS Beagle and I used the method they showed in the video.  I wrapped two pieces of painter's tape around a piece cardboard with the sticky side out.  Then place the deck boards on the tape taking care to butt them up against each other tightly.  Contact glue is applied to both the deck boards and the plywood base.  After about 10 minutes the glue feels only slightly tacky to the touch then the deck boards can be attached to the base.  Care must be taken  not to apply pressure to the deck board until it is in the exact right spot.  Then some pressure is applied and the pieces stick together.  After a few rows I use the round handle of a pin pusher to apply more pressure on the boards to ensure they are secured to the bases.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I stained the decks using Minnwax Golden Oak stain and then applied two coats of shellac.  I used a fine steel wool after each coat of shellac.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I use shellac made from flakes and denatured alcohol using a 2 lb cut.  I received the advice to use shellac on this website after posting about problems I had with using polyurethane.  I am thrilled with the results I am getting with the shellac.    It's great to have a place to ask questions and get feedback.  I have the decks installed and will post about that process soon. 

 

 

[allanyed]

19 hours ago, RossR said:

I used a pencil to darken the edges of the boards.  I think this creates a more subtle look for the caulking. 

Good choice at this scale.  At 1:85 any caulking is really not necessary and more often than not, it is out of scale and obtrusive looking.   Still, your choice is a good one.   Black tissue paper glued to the edges also does a very nice job of it as it is thin enough to be to scale and is much cleaner looking than pencil.  You can find this on-line and at most craft stores.  One package will last for many many years.

 

Your planking looks very neatly done.   You mentioned lengths.   The lengths you chose are hard to tell in the photos. The lengths of deck planks near the center line of course varied a lot with the deck furniture and openings, but the longest "straight"pieces would be in the neighborhood of 3 1/2"- 4" at your scale.   It is too late now, but they were normally laid in a three or four butt shift. (see first drawing below)  It appears in the photos that you used a two butt shift pattern.   I assume this is a kit error, but something to keep in mind for future builds.  Regardless of kit or scratch, maybe consider getting a copy of Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War or other book that covers an array of items.   Much/most will apply to ships of other nationalities.  There are dozens of other books as well, but this one covers a lot.  An example is the deck planking of decks carrying cannon.  The four or so outboard most strakes were often anchor stock or top and butt pattern for the added strength on decks that had cannon rather than straight pieces.  See second drawing below.

 

Both drawings below are from Goodwin's book.  The first is on page 58 and the second is on page 52.

 

Is there a reason you are not using PVA glue?  I don't think there are many fans of contact glue in ship modeling, but may be wrong on this.

 

Allan

 

[RossR]

I used the contact cement only because that is what Occre has in the instructions.  I had good results using it on my first model, so I stuck with it.  I appreciate the info on the plank layout.  I will use that in the future.  

 

 

[RossR]

I ran into my first issue while installing the lower deck pieces.  There is a tab on the deck pieces that fits into frame piece number 4.  See picture below.  With all of the frame pieces glued into place there is no easy way to get this piece installed.  I ended up breaking the piece free and re-installing it after the lower deck is in place.  If you are building this kit consider waiting to install frame piece number 4 until after the lower deck is in place. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After the deck pieces were installed I re-attached frame piece number 4.  I also installed the supports for the upper deck.  The two closest to the bow should be finished as parts of those will be visible through the opening in the upper deck.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next I installed the bases for the partial cannon barrels to be installed.  I added some bracing behind the bases to hopefully keep them from breaking free when the holes are drilled into them for the cannon barrels.  The instructions do not call for this, but I decided it might be a good idea.  

 

 

 

Next I installed the upper deck and painted the bases black.  The instructions do not say to paint the bases black at this stage, but it seems easier to do it now rather than wait and try and do it through the gun port.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next up is shaping the frames for the bulwarks.  

Edited December 26, 2022 by RossR

[RossR]

The holidays didn't allow much time to work on the ship.  I have spent some time thinking about additions / improvements to the kit that I may want to make.  I have a list of possible items, I probably won't incorporate all of these but right now and considering the following:

 

Scratch build the two small boats that are mounted on the deck - The kit came with cast metal boats, they look pretty good, but I thought scratch built might be fun.  I received some great information from some other members of MSW on scratch building some boats.  I think I will attempt this, as a separate build but use the kit supplied boats on this ship.

 

Adding  blocks and lines to the gun carriages.  I like this idea, but I am worried that at the scale of this model the blocks will be too big.  Need to do some research on this, but I am leaning towards adding these.

 

Occre supplies what they call "composite" deadeyes.  I am considering upgrading to wood so I can stain them black.  I have seen that some people paint the composite ones, but I worry it will be difficult to keep the holes open and don't want to re-drill them.

 

The cleats that are provided need to be painted a wood tone.  I may attempt to see if I can carve some actual wood cleats.  Not sure if I will be successful, but don't need to invest much in the wood, so I may give this a try.

 

I am going to use a brass blackening solution on most of the brass components.  I like the black appearance better than the bright brass.  

 

I don't like the chainplate provided with the kit.   It is just a brass wire that you paint black.  I will  do something different, but not sure what.  Been looking at some other posts and I may try to fabricate something, but I have never soldered before, and would need to figure that out. I may just purchase some black chain and use that.   

 

I would love any thoughts or advice anyone has on these items.  Hopefully I get the bulwarks added soon and will post about that process when I do.

 

[rcmdrvr]

Just read your build for the first time.  You are doing a great job building and I am very impressed with the quality of your photos.  They are sharp and well composed.  Makes it very easy to follow.  Becoming proficient in soldering is good skill to acquire.  There are some good you tube videos you can learn from.

[RossR]

4 hours ago, rcmdrvr said:

Just read your build for the first time.  You are doing a great job building and I am very impressed with the quality of your photos.  They are sharp and well composed.  Makes it very easy to follow.  Becoming proficient in soldering is good skill to acquire.  There are some good you tube videos you can learn from.

Thanks.  I am a long ways from working on the chainplate, but I really want to improve that area of the kit.  Do you have any experience with products such as Solder-It?   It is applied from a syringe and only needs the heat from a lighter to melt it.  I saw some YouTube videos of it being used.  

[rcmdrvr]

I have not used that product.  I use jelied flux, silver solder and a small pencil torch that runs on butane for lighters.  Works great.

[RossR]

I have the bulwarks installed.  When I built my first model I didn't have great luck using an iron to bend the plywood bulwarks.  I decided to use a jig after soaking the pieces to bend the bulwark.  I soaked in hot for about an hour then clamped to my jig for a day.   I used a 4 inch PVC drain pipe coupler as the jig.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The instructions said to use quick drying glue and to start at bow.  I had a really difficult time getting and of the nails inserted quick enough with the quick drying glue.  I deviated from the instructions and used wood glue and started from the middle and worked my way back to the stern then forward to the bow.

 

 

 

Next up I need to shape the frame pieces below the bulwarks and start adding the hull strakes.  

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by RossR

[DavidG]

Ross, it is very nice and clean work you do with the Diana. I definitely agree with your plan to make the chain plates right - the kit design really falls short in this area. The omission of proper links by simple wire is easier to address by making your own or use aftermarket parts. The bigger problem is, the arrangement of the gun ports prevent setting the proper angle for them (they should follow the line of the respective shrouds and backstays). 

Occre bypasses this by the omission of the problematic links (see below). If you want to make this right, do some planning before second planking, temporarily fit the channels and dummy mast rods, check the run of the shroud lines and adjust for your liking. Apart from the chainplates, there are countless other possibilities to improve the accuracy of the model. My build log may show some ideas (like the chain plate issue in post #31), but I'm also happy to follow your log and share my experience.

 

[RossR]

Thanks for the feedback.  I will check out your build log.  I am not sure how I will handle the issue with the chainplates and gun ports, but I know I don't like the idea of skipping it like the instructions show.  

[RossR]

I have the bulkheads shaped for the installation of the planks.  This is a step that I didn't do a great job of on my first model.  I was too aggressive and removed too much of some of the bulkheads.  As I result, after planking I needed to build up some areas with wood filler and did a lot of sanding work to get the shape of the bow right.  This time I was careful to only remove enough material to get the angles set right for the planks to lay properly.  I find this part of the building process to be a little stressful.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next step was to add the first three planks below the bulwarks.  I used the same technique to curve the bow portion as I used for the bulwarks with good results.  I did have some issues with the second plank on one side.  That plank needs to twist about 20 degrees near the stern.  On the port side I was able to get this amount of twist without any soaking.  However, on the starboard side the plank cracked from the twisting.  Since this is a first layer of planking and there will be some sanding and filling before the final planking goes on, I decided to leave the cracked plank in place.  After the glue dried it was very secure.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had one other mishap with the first three planks.  I didn't catch that one of the bulkheads should have been shimmed a little bit below the bulwark.  When I add the planking over the bulwark there will be a large step that will be too big to sand out and I will need to use some wood filler.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of my goals on this build was to do a better job on the first layer of planking to hopefully prepare myself for a kit that only has a single layer of planking.  Not sure I am getting the result I hoped for, but at least I am learning some things.   Occre kits aren't designed to cut a rabbet in the false keel so I can't completely follow some of the tutorials from MSW.  I will be planning the planking using some of the techniques from the tutorials, and add the stealers and drop planks as needed and not follow the Occre instructions of using planks that come to a point.  

 

I suspect this process will go pretty slow for me.  I will post on my progress from time to time, but the posts could be a little sparse for the next couple of months.  

 

[RossR]

I am starting my second try at lining the off the hull.  I wasn't satisfied with my first attempt.   I have been watching Chuck Passaro's YouTube videos and and reading about his edge bending technique for spiling the planks at the bow, and this seems like the way to go since the kit I am building does not provide extra wide planks that can be used for spiling the planks by cutting them out.  Chuck is able to get the planks to fit well enough that he can glue them with CA and not have to clamp or nail them into place.  I really hope I can learn this technique well enough to not have to nail my planks.  While he uses a travel iron for his edge bending, chapter two of his HMS Winchelsea tutorials says he uses a hair dryer for twisting and other bending.  I haven't found a more detailed description of this process on  MSW or on YouTube.  

 

Is anyone aware of any instruction on using this technique for the twists and curves that are required on the stern of many models?  I would love to read or see how this is done.  Currently I am soaking and then clamping into place while the plank dries, then fine tune the fit and glue and nail the planks.  Slow and the end product doesn't look great.  

 

 

[Esap]

I am a newbie so take what I say with a grain of salt. Chuck's method with the hold-down works well for edge-bending planks, but the same 'apply heat' concept works well for bends in the natural direction too, including the sharper bends at the stern, with some effort. I have seen people use a specialist plank bending tool that is kind of like a modified soldering iron, but i've got away with just using a normal soldering iron for the heat - I do soak first but not for hours. I then just rub it across the soldering iron repeatedly in the target area while applying gentle pressure. Repeatedly re-wetting the strip is important if you don't want to burn it given the high heat involved.
I believe a crimping tool is another option for those sharp bends but haven't seen much about that.

For twists I have personally found just short-term soaking and then manually twisting and holding the wood with my hands for a short while is often enough to get it to stay permanently twisted, but does depend on the wood and how big of a twist you need. I assume heat treatment would help here too, but haven't done that yet.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Esap

[RossR]

I have been making an attempt at edge bending the planks for my hull following Chuck Passaro's methods.  I built the jig for shaping the planks and used an iron, but I can't seem to get the planks to bend enough to laydown properly.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The planks are 2mm x 5mm.  I assume I need to get more bend on the planks, but the picture above is the most I can get them to bend without breaking.  Is this an issue with the type or thickness of the planks.  If anyone has any thoughts I would love to hear them.

 

[allanyed]

Try soaking them in water for an hour or so then follow the methods you are using again.   I find it easier to use a cheap hot air gun than an iron.   Just be sure the temperature is set so it does not scorch the wood. Mine has 7 settings.   The hot air is easier to maneuver than an iron.    

Allan

[Ondras71]

Hello. Bending the wood should be tested so that there is not too much or too little heat. I dip and stroke with solder, still wet, otherwise the wood burns. At some point, the wood softens and behaves like rubber. You shape it, or clamp it, and it hardens into shape. I create a paper pattern with the angle of the bend, I shape accordingly. Stronger wood bends better, very weak slats collapse.
Here are my observations.

 

[RossR]

Thanks for the tip.   I was considering soaking first to see if I could get more bend.  I don't have a hot air gun, but will look into buying one. 

[allanyed]

If you have a hair dryer in the house, it works almost as well if turned on high.   The downside is you need to make sure it is yours, not hers!     Hot air guns have a higher end range and usually come with a variety of tips that are more useful than the hair dryer attachments.

Allan

[Esap]

You can sometimes get better results bending the middle of a strip of wood rather than out near the edge as your picture appears to show. You then need to trim it of course so can be more wasteful, but might help if you need a particularly bendy bit if you are not already doing this.

[Kyak]

Hi RossR,

Youre going fast! I 'm buiding the Diana too but at a much lower pace...

 

I' far from an expert, but it turned out pretty good for my Diana's hull. 

 

I used Chuk's method too.  For the first layer, i soaked the planks in hot water for 10 minutes. fix them on the hull and let it dry out.  For me it worked fine.

 

The second layer wasn't that easy. The planks are very thin and therefore the planks tend to buckle up during the bending proces.  I used an old iron to make the curve.  Some planks needed the proces up to ten times to make the curve.  Check my buildlog. There are some pictures about how i planked the hull.

Keep up the good work!

Gr.

Kyak

[allanyed]

I realize it is very easy to say when it is not one's own money, but assuming the second layer is the open grained brittle walnut or faux walnut many kits provide, you might want to consider setting it aside and getting some good quality wood for the second planking such as Alaskan cedar, castello, Swiss pear, holly et al.    If you are going to wind up with the yellow ocher, black wales, and copper bottom, the wood color is not as important as the quality and ease in which it can be shaped.  Basswood, or even poplar, which is cheap by comparison, is easier to work with than the crispy walnut some kit makers include.  

Allan   

[RossR]

One of my goals in this build was to do a better job on the first layer of planking.  I have tried to spile the planks using the edge bending technique, and found it difficult to get the planks to lay correctly.  This model is not designed with a rabbet joint and planks need to curve at to bow to a 90 degree angle to the centerline of the ship.  I think this was maybe too much of a bend for the technique I was trying to employ, at least with my level of skill.  I have decided to move forward following the Occre instructions.  This will require a lot of sanding and some wood filler before the second layer is added.  

 

Despite not succeeding at creating a better looking first layer, I think with the right model I would be less intimidated by building a single layer model than I would have before this attempt.  Thanks to allanyed and others for their tips and encouragement.  Really appreciate all the help from more experienced modelers.

[RossR]

I have also, been adding the planks over the bulwarks and cutting out the gun port openings.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The gun port frames and hatches that are provided with the kit appear to be a brown anodized aluminum.  The detail of the wood grain and the hinges are very crisp in the cast part.  I don’t know if I am crazy about the anodized look of the metal and have considered painting the parts, but I am worried that the paint will cover the details cast into the parts.  Not sure what I will do right now, but have at least a few months before I need to decide.  I do plan on at least painting the hinges at a minimum.

 

[RossR]

It has been awhile since I posted on my progress.  I am close to finishing the first layer of planking.  Not the result I had hoped for when I started, but I am confident that I will get a good surface to install the second layer too.  When I have the first layer finished I will post pictures.  

 

I have been working on several other aspects of the build as I have been planking.  Items such as assembling the gun carriages and ladders.  I have been taking pictures as I go, and will post about them as they are installed on the ship.  

 

I have also been studying the rigging plans.  When I built my first ship, I followed the plans start to finish and didn't think about what items were for as they were installed.  For example, I installed blocks on the yards and masts where the instructions told me to without really understanding thier function at the time.  I made a lot of mistakes by not really understanding what each item was for.  Such as installing blocks on the top of a yard instead on the bottom it that is what was needed for it's purpose.  I also didn't spend any time leaning the terminology used in the rigging.  

 

One of my goals on this build was to understand more about the terminology and the purpose of all the rigging components.  I have looked at quite a few online items and have made some progress.  I have a good handle on most of the items that deal with the square sails, but have found it harder to nail down the names of the lines on some of the other sails.  

 

First item I can't seem to figure out is the name of the triangle shaped sail that is attached above the driver on the diagram below.  I am also struggling to determine the names of the lines used on the stay sales.  The diagram shows two lines that start at  the upper corner.  One goes up through a block on the stay and then down to the deck the other goes down along the stay through a block on the mast and to the deck.  I am not sure what purpose the second line serves.  It would seem to me to make more sense if it was attached to the sail near the top forward corner.  The remaining lines are at the bottom of the sail, one forward and two aft.  The purpose of these lines makes more sense, but I still would like to know what to call them.  

 

The other question I have relates to a system of blocks used near the deck to secure some of the rigging lines.  In the image below the halliard runs through a set of double blocks at the yard and mast and then at the deck there is another set of single blocks used to hoist and secure the yards.  This seems like a very ackward way to raise and secure the yard.  My limited knowledge of simple physics also tells me that the same mechanical advantage could be achieved with a set of triple blocks instead of doubles at the yard and mast.  I would love to understand what the purpose of this arrangement was and what it is called.  I have seen this on models of other Spanish ships, but not from other nationalities.  

 

 

If anyone has the any info on these items and wants to share, I would appreciate it.  

 

Thanks.