What About Pavel Niktin Models?

[Bill Jackson]

Does anyone have experience with Pavel Models? I am thinking about buying one.

[vossy]

They look fantastic! I so want the San Bartolme. But be aware that postage (not his fault), may be extremely expensive. I know it is here to Australia.

From the super excellent unboxing of the San Bartolme on here the packaging and overall kit looks just so outstanding. I am currently following a 

build of it on FB and so far all is going to plan. I obviously can't recommend them personally as I have never built one, but from what I have seen

online they get my vote for sure.

 

Chris

 

[Bill Jackson]

Chris I am looking for authernticity. Many of the models I see, in this era and Spanish galleons or naos are not accurate. This one looks very fancy for a ship built in 1589 or so. Back then they didnt even have electric saws. Hahahah

[vossy]

Hey Bill, well you could argue authenticity about a lot of models. My favourite vessel of all time is Santa Maria. Has been for 50 odd years since I was a kid.

But, there is no definitive pictorial evidence of what she ever really looked like. Same for Columbus for that matter.

Apart from maybe, Victory and a few other super well known and documented vessels, you will find different model companies produce differing designs of

the same vessel. Bounty etc. 

I just think that the San Bartolme from Pavel Niktin looks outrageously good. Is is accurate? Maybe not, but was the Mona Lisa? 

I still want it!

 

Chris

 

[Bill Jackson]

I hear you Chris. Thanks

Bill

[DelF]

1 hour ago, Bill Jackson said:

This one looks very fancy for a ship built in 1589 or so.

Hi Bill

 

She actually looks quite plain compared to many ships of the era, for example some of Henry Vlll's fleet such as the Mary Rose and Henry Grace a Dieu. They were actually earlier vessels, both built in the 1510s.

As you say, shipwrights at that time didn't have electric saws. Neither did they keep plans nor (until much later) did they produce accurate dockyard models. So unfortunately the evidence for most ships of the period is limited to paintings, drawing, written accounts and archaeology/wrecks, none of which can provide sufficient information to guarantee a totally accurate model. I think the word authentic can have a slightly less strict interpretation. For example, the painting of the Mary Rose above is modern, but it is based on a contemporary 16th century painting of the original ship. Furthermore it is by a marine artist, Geoff Hunt, who understands ships and how they are sailed. He would also have had access to information from the wreck of the ship which is now preserved in Portsmouth. So I would argue that the painting is an authentic representation of the Mary Rose as it is based on the best information currently available on the real ship.     

 

For me, one of the pleasures of this hobby is research. So much is available online now it might be worth doing some digging on the San Bartolome to see if you can answer your own question on the authenticity of the model.

 

Derek

[Bill Jackson]

Thanks Derek. I habe good sources but, as usual, only about hull length and beam dimentions, ratios etc. After building the San Martin and the San Marcus (same era) I doubt if the San Bartolome was built that fancy. Spain had money issues and were building 11 other ships, so money was "kinda thin".

Bill

But I will keep looking for sure.

[mtdoramike]

Ships back in the day were built more extravagant than you would think , due to ships representing countries and their kings and queens. This is true even from poor countries. There were also drawings of ships earlier than people think, unfortunately a lot were lost in time. If you as a builder want authenticity in their model, then do as much research as you can on the particular subject you want to build. It's true model ship kits authenticity are questionable, but that is where you the builder come in. Kits are really only here to help you get started, but not necessarily the end all be all.

[Roger Pellett]

Many Naval Architects (the professionals in the boat and shipbuilding business) were and still are enthusiastic ship model builders.  Two of the best known, L. Francis Herreshoff, and Howard I. Chapelle have written that the basis of a good ship model is an accurate set of “ lines” that define the shape of the hull.  Chapelle further argues that models based on other than known hull lines “should not be built.”

 

Archaeology has now provided us with accurate hull lines for two previously undocumented vessels.  One is of course, Mary Rose.  The other is the less well known Spanish vessel San Juan.  This medium sized Nao or Galleon was crushed in the ice at Red Bay in Newfoundland in about 1580.  An extensive report including hull lines has been published by Parks Canada with copies supposedly on line.

 

This should provide you with an objective standard to evaluate your kit.  
 

Roger

[Chuck Seiler]

    I have the 'John Smith SHALLOP".  It appears to be a good representation based on the reproduction in the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum.  I have ordered, but not yet received, the Oseberg Drakker.  The laser etchings on the bow and stern look superb.  So far, I am happy with the quality of the SHALLOP.  The instructions are a bit light on verbiage, but oherwise complete.  Email responses from "Pavel" have been quick (although so far I have only dealt with Denis...not Pavel).

 

    As noted above, shipping is pricey.  Another issue is that it takes a long time to get the package,  It took over a week for them to send the package and several weeks to arrive.  Part of this is due to the war.  IIRC, this is a small operation so they only crank out a few kits at a time.  It is even slower when bombs are dropping around you and knocking out your electricity.  Also, it is my understanding that there is no commercial air currently in Ukraine, so everything has to go by ground until it gets to a place with air.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Chuck Seiler

[Roger Pellett]

After finishing my post I realized that a the review of the kit was posted above.  After looking at the photos IMHO the kit bears little resemblance to a real working vessel of 1580 or any other time period. It appears that the kit mfgr is intentionally trying to offer an updated version of the mass produced “decorator models” of the past.  
 

The large sailing warships of the 1500’s had “boatlike” hull lines with separate lightly built upperworks above. The model built from this kit appears to lack these characteristics.

 

Roger

[mtaylor]

To answer the original questoin... I did a quick search in the kit area.    It can be modified to cover all of MSW including the review areas.      https://modelshipworld.com/search/?&q=Pavel&type=forums_topic&quick=1&nodes=130&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

[Bill Jackson]

8 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Many Naval Architects (the professionals in the boat and shipbuilding business) were and still are enthusiastic ship model builders.  Two of the best known, L. Francis Herreshoff, and Howard I. Chapelle have written that the basis of a good ship model is an accurate set of “ lines” that define the shape of the hull.  Chapelle further argues that models based on other than known hull lines “should not be built.”

 

Archaeology has now provided us with accurate hull lines for two previously undocumented vessels.  One is of course, Mary Rose.  The other is the less well known Spanish vessel San Juan.  This medium sized Nao or Galleon was crushed in the ice at Red Bay in Newfoundland in about 1580.  An extensive report including hull lines has been published by Parks Canada with copies supposedly on line.

 

This should provide you with an objective standard to evaluate your kit.  
 

Roger

Thanks Roger. I have read Chapelle's articles, and I agree with him and you. The San Juan is one of the Manila Galleons that I plan to build. Its on my list.) Right now my research is focused on San Francisco (1597). But I happened to see the Pavel model and thats why I asked. More later.

Bill

PS I still have my doubts about the appearance of Pavel. But I'll keep an open mind.

[Roger Pellett]

Hi Bill, different San Juan.  In the late 1500’s Newfoundland’s Red Bay was a Spanish whaling station.  It was adjacent to the migration route for a particular species of whales.  Whaling was done from shore.  Small boats, remarkably similar to later American boats were launched from shore to capture  whales.  Rendering was done in triworks erected a onshore.

 

Archeology has revealed much of the onshore infrastructure.  In addition the wreckage of two galleon type vessels, a whaleboat, and a longboat has been discovered.  The whaleboat has been reassembled and is on display at the visitor’s center.  One of the Galleons, thought to be named San Juan was completely recovered.  The pieces were each measured and the ship was virtually reassembled.  The pieces were then preserved by burying them offshore in a stable environment.

 

While this might seem far removed from the Spanish Armada, a squadron of these Basque built whaling vessels did sail in the armada, as they were prized for their sturdy construction.  If you google Red Bay you should be able to see the model of the vessel that Parks Canada bult.  It is the best example that I know of a real Spanish Galleon.

 

Roger

[thibaultron]

I bought the series of books on the San Juan whaling vessel, a great read!