Sphinx Question: What is this for?

[Goodshipvenus]

Getting close to finishing Sphinx. Originally planned to do a full-rigged version, then realized I don’t have the ambition to do another fully rigged three master.

So, what is this spar attached to the taffrail? Is it a flagstaff? Can I mount a flag on it or will it look silly? Also, should it be tapered? It’ doesn’t appear on any of the plans (Version 1) or photos.

[druxey]

It is the ensign staff. Certainly it should be tapered and have a small cap on top with a sheave cut through for the ensign halliard. Look at contemporary models and paintings to see examples of these.

[GrandpaPhil]

Here is the ensign staff on my Victory:

Here is the sheave:

Edited July 4, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Goodshipvenus]

Would you hang a flag from it?

[GrandpaPhil]

Yes.

 

Adding flags is typically my last step in a model.

Edited July 4, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[allanyed]

There are examples on the RMG Collections site. Several contemporary model examples   https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66300 and https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66359,  https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66325, https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66357  

From Lee's Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, page 184, the length of the ensign staff was 1/3 the length of the main mast above the taffrail and the diameter was 1/2 inch per 3 feet of length.  The ensign staff tabernacle looks to be a bit thin in your photos in post #1 above.  Looking at photos of contemporary models the tabernacles look to be closer to 10 or 12 inches deep.  Not a big thing, just curious if anyone knows if there was some kind of standard for this.

 

Are you going to rig the staff and hang an ensign?  

 

Allan

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by allanyed

[Goodshipvenus]

Excellent. Just what I wanted to know. Yes, I have an ensign so I'm going to hang it.

Thanks

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Goodshipvenus said:

Yes, I have an ensign so I'm going to hang it.

Which one are you going to rig?   She is possibly best known for being part of the squadron in the battle of Sullivan's Island.  As a single squadron, I suspect she carried a red ensign at least at that point in her history.  You probably already found this in your research, but if not the only pic I could find is the watercolor attributed to James Peale and it appears it was a the red ensign rather than the white or blue that the squadron carried.  Note the Sphinx is third ship from the right.

Allan

[Goodshipvenus]

I'm going to have to make my own flag, so I'll see which will be easiest.

[chris watton]

In the parts list, they are are described as:

403         Stern Ensign Staff Upper Bracket                      1.5mm Wood                1

404         Stern Ensign Staff Lower Bracket                      1.5mm Wood                1

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, Goodshipvenus said:

I'm going to have to make my own flag, so I'll see which will be easiest.

GSV

I have the red ensign and white ensigns drawn if you want them. (see below)  Just let me know which one and what size and I can PM it to you or you can try to copy and use these.  It is printed so you can fold it over as it obviously needs to be done on both sides in mirror image.  If I go with silk span I triple print one side only as the ink soaks through and the flag is not so thick having only a single layer.  If you have any kind of CAD program you can do this as an alternate method rather than do two sides and fold it over.  I also like to use silk span as it can be draped properly very easily.  From what I have researched the  white ensign is appropriate for second squadron vessels and the red for first squadron vessels.  The white ensign design below was used between 1707 and 1800.    The last photo shows the draped flag, & in this case it happens to be a US flag on a newly designed schooner.   

Allan

'

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by allanyed

[Thukydides]

@allanyed I am not sure I understand what you mean by first vs second squadron. Can you elaborate?

 

Also how do you print on silkspan, do you attach it to another piece of paper? By triple printing one side you mean you would only use a single layer of silkspan for the flag?

 

 

[allanyed]

Thukydides

From what I researched, when there was a fleet sailing,  the red squadron was headed by the senior most commander/admiral and carried the red ensign, the second (white ensign) was lead by the second most senior commander,  and the blue by the least senior.  I believe single squadrons would carry red squadrons if not part of a fleet.  Hopefully some member has more details on this or correct things if I have it wrong.

 

I tape silk span to a standard sheet of paper when printing flags.  When I do the drawing in CAD I copy in place twice so it will print exactly the same three times.  I use the print command from the CAD program to be sure it triple prints. 

 

Hope this makes some sense.

 

Allan

Edited July 10, 2023 by allanyed

[Chuck Seiler]

IIRC, British admirals were graded by seniority (Rear, vice full) and within grade (red, white, blue).  At Trafalgar, Nelson was vice admiral of the white.  Ships directly under the command of that admiral would fly the admiral's colour.  Since ships operating independently and squadrons under command of a non-admiral worked for a particular admiral or area commander in chief, they would fly his colour.

[Roger Pellett]

Since you don’t plan to rig the model IMHO an ensign would be out of place.  There are, however, examples of unrigged models decked out with flags flown to celebrate the vessel’s launch.  There was a fascinating article in the Nautical Research Journal several years ago about the detective work required to sort out the launch flags for a model in the Naval Academy’s collection.

 

Roger

Edited July 9, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Goodshipvenus]

I use a method of making my own flags that Gus Augustin came up with.

 

Cut a piece of quality white paper to the right size.

Wet and crumple it. Dry it. The paper will retain all the creases,

Paint the flag on both sides. You don't have to do a perfect job of painting since the finished flag will hang down with all the creases just like a real one and you won't be able to se if the lines are not all straight.

Mount the flag and crease it as desired.

 

It actually works.