USS Constitution by Der Alte Rentner - Model Shipways - 1/76

[GGibson]

7 minutes ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

 

...here are the Syren Ship Model Company 1/8" double and single blocks (left) compared to their equivalent(?) versions as supplied by Model Shipways (right)....

 

Attaching the hooks to the Syren blocks is going to be an interesting proposition.  Pin vice and drill baby drill?

 

I haven't used Model Shipways' kit-supplied blocks since... my first Norwegian Sailing Pram and then I learned better.  I love Syren for their blocks, and have already forewarned Chuck that, whenever I get to my Constitution carronades and rigging (haha, seriously?!?), I'll be placing an order.

 

Attaching hooks to the blocks should be an easy task, Peter.  And there are plenty of posts here on MSW regarding stropping techniques.

[Unegawahya]

4 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

 

Hmmm,  I never thought I'd be back this soon...

 

 You won't see the blocks installed anytime soon, but here are the Syren Ship Model Company 1/8" double and single blocks (left) compared to their equivalent(?) versions as supplied by Model Shipways (right).  Yes, I'm sure those are the correct ones from Model Shipways. This was verified by the count of the blocks compared to the parts list that came with the kit.

 

 

Attaching the hooks to the Syren blocks is going to be an interesting proposition.  Pin vice and drill baby drill?  Looks like it will work.  I opened up the eye of an eye bolt and trimmed the bolt to fit the hole I drilled in the block. Only 79 more of these to go for the tackle.  

 

 

I had hoped to be able to wrap one of the Jack stays completely around the block but there's not enough material there to cover the circumference.  And frankly, experimentation has shown that it's too difficult to do anyway.

 

 

I found that I needed to hold my hemostats with my soldering stand to be able to tie on my hooks to my blocks. I also ended up making all of my own hooks for the blocks.

[Der Alte Rentner]

10 hours ago, Unegawahya said:

I also ended up making all of my own hooks for the blocks.

Got any left over you care to sell?   😁

[Der Alte Rentner]

15 hours ago, GGibson said:

 

Attaching hooks to the blocks should be an easy task, Peter.  And there are plenty of posts here on MSW regarding stropping techniques.

Judging by what I've found searching for "Stropping" everywhere on the site, I'm not convinced that this will be anywhere as easy as you suggest.  I am compiling a list of techniques and may post those later, after I've tried all the methods.  

 

Say, can anyone save me the time of digging this up and tell me the thickness of the threads used for the block and tackle, and breeching rope on the carronades and cannons?  Thanks to all..

Edited Thursday at 01:18 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[GGibson]

11 hours ago, Unegawahya said:

I found that I needed to hold my hemostats with my soldering stand to be able to tie on my hooks to my blocks.

 

I need to find some slightly "weaker" hemostats, as many of the smaller blocks on my Santa Maria rigging were getting crushed by the hemostat I have, so I was just using the clips on my helping hand to hold the blocks while stropping.

[Unegawahya]

4 minutes ago, GGibson said:

 

I need to find some slightly "weaker" hemostats, as many of the smaller blocks on my Santa Maria rigging were getting crushed by the hemostat I have, so I was just using the clips on my helping hand to hold the blocks while stropping.

I’m sorry. I forgot to say that the hemostats were being held closed by the spring clips on the soldering stand.

[Der Alte Rentner]

This all comes up under the rubric of rigging block and tackle for the cannons and carronades.  Somehow, I would have thought that the loose end would be wrapped around a belaying pin somewhere.  Evidently not.  Here are some methods I've seen employed.  Not even the Constitution is consistent in this.  Why the difference between forward and aft rigging?

 

 

Other modelers:

XKEN

 

Unegawahya

 

Mustafa

 

and this.  Sorry, I forgot whose build I saw this in.  Obviously someone working on the cross section.

 

 

Jon, I'm sure you're going to chime in with the "correct" rigging diagrams (at least I'm hoping you will 😁)

 

Edited Thursday at 02:28 PM by Der Alte Rentner
added content

[Der Alte Rentner]

11 minutes ago, Unegawahya said:

I’m sorry. I forgot to say that the hemostats were being held closed by the spring clips on the soldering stand.

So you didn't engage the lock on the hemostat, letting the spring clip do the actual clamping, yes?

[GGibson]

1 hour ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

Say, can anyone save me the time of digging this up and tell me the thickness of the threads used for the block and tackle, and breeching rope on the carronades and cannons?  Thanks to all..

 

Will be interesting to hear others more knowledgeable than me chime in on actual rope sizes being used on the Constitution's carronades, but... Ropes of Scale, which is my favorite model rope vendor, has their smallest ropes at 0.25mm (0.009") and 0.35mm (0.013"), which are generally the sizes I use for rigging... The 0.35mm for the running rigging and the smaller 0.25mm to tie or strop the ropes at the blocks.  So, If I'm doing my scale conversions correctly, 0.013" x 76.8 scale = 0.9984", or just short of a 1" diameter rope.  That seems about the right scale, doesn't it?

[Unegawahya]

1 hour ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

So you didn't engage the lock on the hemostat, letting the spring clip do the actual clamping, yes?

That is correct! I’ve had great success this way.

[Der Alte Rentner]

2 hours ago, GGibson said:

 

Will be interesting to hear others more knowledgeable than me chime in on actual rope sizes being used on the Constitution's carronades, but... Ropes of Scale, which is my favorite model rope vendor, has their smallest ropes at 0.25mm (0.009") and 0.35mm (0.013"), which are generally the sizes I use for rigging... The 0.35mm for the running rigging and the smaller 0.25mm to tie or strop the ropes at the blocks.  So, If I'm doing my scale conversions correctly, 0.013" x 76.8 scale = 0.9984", or just short of a 1" diameter rope.  That seems about the right scale, doesn't it?

Interesting.  Comparing size options between Ropes of Scale and Syren Ship Model Company, there seems to be a slight difference.  

Ropes of Scale's two smallest diameter ropes are: .25mm and .35mm.

Syren's Ship's  two smallest diameter ropes are .20mm and .30mm.   

I'll have to check to see what Model Shipways sizes are in the tan, as well as Constructo's, potentially rendering the point moot, but does anyone besides Gregg (and the DIY crown with rope walks) have a preference between Ropes and Syren?  

 

[JSGerson]

First off, I'm not nautical expert, have no military experience (except army ROTC), let alone any naval experience. What I know is from model builders I've followed on various sites and books. So my two cents: As near as I understand it, if the guns are rigged for sea voyage but not battle, the tackle and guns are rigged fast so as to not move or be in the way of the sailor's activities, the gun is pulled up to the bulwark and the gun port is closed and the loose ends of tackle are made snug against the guns. When the guns ae on display for the public or inspection, the guns are pulled through the open gun ports and the loose rope may be coiled "pretty" or remain snug to the gun. If the guns are posed "ready for battle," everything is loose so the gun can recoil freely and the tackle can be manned for loading and pulling back through the gun port. In other words, it all depends on how you want your model to look.

 

Jon

[Der Alte Rentner]

How about it.  The instructions for the kit show this.

 

[JSGerson]

That looks like your standard ready for battle setup: the gun is pull through the gun port, the tackle is loose, and not coiled.

 

Jon

[Der Alte Rentner]

It looks I may(?) be shopping for aftermarket cordage.

 

The plans call for .016 in (.41 mm) line for the tackle and .029 in (.74 mm) for the breaching rope. The kit provides .008 in (.20 mm) and .021 in (.53 mm) tan line.  The only other tan thread that comes with the kit is so thin it must be intended to be used for seizing.

 

 

For grins, I tried the thicker line on for size for the breaching rope.  Unsatisfactory..

 

 

However, the Constructo kit comes with what measures to be roughly the correct sizes. No sizes are actually provided, so I'm going with what my Vernier caliper delivers by way of measurement. Here is the same cannon with breaching rope from the Constructo kit. It's a small thing, but I like the color  and finish better of the material that came with the MS kit.

 

 

Funny, in the photos, the difference doesn't appear to be all that great. I guess I'll order some properly sized cordage from the vendor that Gregg suggested and compare.  

 

While I wait, I'll start mass-producing blocks with hooks.

 

Edited Thursday at 09:21 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[Der Alte Rentner]

50 minutes ago, JSGerson said:

That looks like your standard ready for battle setup: the gun is pull through the gun port, the tackle is loose, and not coiled.

 

Jon

For what it's worth, because I failed to note the Hunt misdirection(?) for the waterway early on, my carronades will NOT be pulled through the gunports. I will therefore be coiling the tackle, or doing whatever it is they're doing with the Constitution today. See above.

 

[GGibson]

42 minutes ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

I guess I'll order some properly sized cordage from the vendor that Gregg suggested and compare.  

 

 

I have always had great success with Ropes of Scale with my rope purchases and, like I mentioned with the blocks and using Syren exclusively, I haven't used kit-supplied rope in several of my past ship builds.  Although I hear great reports about Chuck's rope at Syren, I have stuck with Ben at Ropes of Scale.  Chuck will always get my rigging blocks and deadeyes business, though.

 

With that said, do take into consideration that Ropes of Scale is a Canadian-based company, so not sure how the current tariff situation might affect pricing and shipping.  If that might become an issue, I wouldn't hesitate to go with Syren.

Edited Thursday at 09:38 PM by GGibson

[Der Alte Rentner]

As it turns out, it may be that the holes in the syren blocks are so small that the .008" (.20mm) line that came with the kit is all that will fit through.  

 

Before I go much further, I order some .25mm line to see if that works.

 

In terms of looks and scale, I might get by with the MS .20mm.

 

Either way, this is going to take a LONG time..

 

Edited yesterday at 01:59 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[Der Alte Rentner]

16 hours ago, GGibson said:

 

I have always had great success with Ropes of Scale with my rope purchases and, like I mentioned with the blocks and using Syren exclusively, I haven't used kit-supplied rope in several of my past ship builds.  Although I hear great reports about Chuck's rope at Syren, I have stuck with Ben at Ropes of Scale.  Chuck will always get my rigging blocks and deadeyes business, though.

 

With that said, do take into consideration that Ropes of Scale is a Canadian-based company, so not sure how the current tariff situation might affect pricing and shipping.  If that might become an issue, I wouldn't hesitate to go with Syren.

Given that Syren seems to be out of stock in the .30 mm and .45 mm sizes in tan,  Ropes of Scale just got my order. I ordered an assortment of sizes in the tan ranging from the .25 mm up to the .7 mm. I'll see how these compare to what I have from both MS and Constructo.

Edited yesterday at 02:14 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[GGibson]

1 hour ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

I'll see how these compare to what I have from both MS and Constructo.

 

Will be interested in hearing your opinion. 👍

[Der Alte Rentner]

I think I've figured out the processes of making hooks and attaching them to the blocks.  

 

 

Next up, figure out how to rig the breaching rope.  Of all the builds that I have studied, I like the looks of Mustafa's the best.  

 

I can't decide if I like how skinny these tackles look. I should probably hold off until the order of new materials arrives before I go into mass production. In the short-term, I'll be attaching hooks to the double blocks, which requires no rope at all.  Just a lot of patience. 🙄

Edited yesterday at 09:00 PM by Der Alte Rentner

[mtbediz]

10 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

In the short-term, I'll be attaching hooks to the double blocks

Everything looks good and correct. I'm just wondering how you attached the hooks to the double blocks.

 

My summer vacation has started but as you can see I am still here and following

Edited 14 hours ago by mtbediz

[Der Alte Rentner]

12 hours ago, mtbediz said:

Everything looks good and correct. I'm just wondering how you attached the hooks to the double blocks.

 

My summer vacation has started but as you can see I am still here and following

 

It's funny that you ask.  I couldn't stay up long enough last night to watch the overtime of Edmonton Florida Stanley Cup game, so I decided to watch the rest of the game at my Shipyard while doing some busy work. The busy work is fashioning the hooks and double blocks.

 

The steps follow:  

 

Clamp the block in a sturdy vice.

 

Do the absolute best you can to center the drill, which in this case a .48 mm drill, on the end of the block.  No, I am not using the Proxxon mill to drill the hole. I'm using a pin vise.  

 

 

Open up the hole in the standard kit supplied eye bolt.

 

 

Trim the bolt.

 

Glue the hook into the block.

 

 

And now for the tricky bit. If you didn't Center the hook well enough, you won't be able to get the thread through the holes nearest the hook. Even if you do center it, you will need to clean out the holes. So, I used the same drill and very carefully reamed out those two holes.

 

Ta da...

 

Note: I tried using some .30 mm brass wire wrapped around the block then twisting the ends to fashion a hook, sort of like this:

But the brass kept breaking.  

 

I've made a grand total of four of these so far, and only screwed up once, where I didn't get the drill centered. 

 

For what it's worth, had I used the blocks that came with the kit, this would have been a piece of cake. Given that they are oversized and the holes for the line are in the center of the blocks not at the ends like with these from Syren.  Note to Syren, perhaps you could offer up blocks with one pre-drilled hole?

 

Since you're already done, Mustafa, this is all academic for you. But it's going in to my hard copy build log, so the details needed to be posted.

Edited 2 hours ago by Der Alte Rentner
Typos, and more typos. Removed duplicate photo.

[GGibson]

47 minutes ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

I couldn't stay up long enough last night to watch the overtime of Edmonton Florida Stanley Cup game, so I decided to watch the rest of the game at my Shipyard while doing some busy work.

 

I, too, watched the Stanley Cup game last night... through both overtime periods... in my shipyard... but didn't get any busy work done... and today I am tired from lack of sleep.  Go figure! 🤷‍♂️

 

Ingenious way to create those hooked blocks, Peter!  What size/length are those hooks you created?  Syren does sell some 3mm, 4mm & 5mm-sized hooks, as well.  In my previous builds, I have frequently been a "if I can find it somewhere rather than create it, I'll buy it" kind of guy.  I am sure I will have to change that attitude once I get deep into this Constitution.  Good work, sir!  Carry on!  

[Der Alte Rentner]

57 minutes ago, GGibson said:

 

I, too, watched the Stanley Cup game last night... through both overtime periods... in my shipyard... but didn't get any busy work done... and today I am tired from lack of sleep.  Go figure! 🤷‍♂️

 

Ingenious way to create those hooked blocks, Peter!  What size/length are those hooks you created?  Syren does sell some 3mm, 4mm & 5mm-sized hooks, as well.  In my previous builds, I have frequently been a "if I can find it somewhere rather than create it, I'll buy it" kind of guy.  I am sure I will have to change that attitude once I get deep into this Constitution.  Good work, sir!  Carry on!  

 

Hi Gregg,

 

What a finish to that hockey game! I can hardly wait for the next one.  (I'm glad to see that 2 ex-Blackhawks are in the finals, which gives me a reason to root for one team over the other.)

 

As for the hooks, I'm using the standard Jackstay eyebolts that model shipways provides with their kit.

 

I did look at Syren for hooks, but they didn't come in brass, and they needed to be stropped to the blocks, which struck me as being more work than the method I'm using now. On the other hand it took me 2 hours to make six of them today. I did lose two in the process, however. Trust me, if I could find these in brass, I might consider doing the stropping.

Given that I've got eight of 40 already done, starting from scratch would mean I'd be doing those eight again. (Two of the eight are deployed on the spar dack at the moment.)

 

[Der Alte Rentner]

Gregg, after seeing your list of resource materials, I ordered the anatomy of the ship by Karl Heinz Marquardt. The timing couldn't  have been much better. I see in the diagrams for the armament, that the hooks should in fact be stropped to the blocks. Maybe I'll just make my own brass hooks and get to stropping after all. (maybe no one will notice that the eight I've already made will look different..)

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Der Alte Rentner