Santos Dumont No. 18 Hydroplane 1907 by Greg Davis - Scale 1:16

[iMustBeCrazy]

10 minutes ago, Greg Davis said:

The engine that you are examining here looks different to me, in how fuel is delivered. I was under the assumption that there were two carbonators on the No18's engine that were fed by the rear portion of the conical tank. I thought the air/fuel mixture was then delivered through the spider-shaped manifolds. The engine you are showing here appears to have air intakes for each cylinder with fuel being injected separately.

I certainly can't say for certain, they could have changed anything.

 

The engine was designed with 'fuel injection' I put that in quotes as it was a continuous spray system spraying all cylinders at once, when the inlet valves were sucked open fuel and air were drawn in. I assume throttle was by controlling the amount of air.

 

[Keith Black]

17 minutes ago, Greg Davis said:

If so 10 min of run time should be quite sufficient! But again - all conjectural!

 This is why I'm having trouble with a water pump being thrown into the mix, early water pumps were sketchy at best. I know those 16 cylinders are going to produce heat but the designer is adding a sketchy pump for a ten minute ride? As long as there was enough external water and room for expansion ten minutes is nothing. It's a whole other kettle of fish if we're talking hours but ten minutes? I just can't see trying to invent the wheel for ten minutes. I've seen guys run V-8's without any water (testing after a rebuild not wanting to add coolant in case they had to pull the heads etc etc) for almost ten minutes. You guys say water pump, okay, but I gotta tell ya I'm a bit skeptical. 

[iMustBeCrazy]

13 minutes ago, Greg Davis said:

made it appear the coolant pipes go below that long tube

You can see that in the shot above.

I think William nailed it.

 

Now, the only other shot of the tube I can find appears to have a narrower tube coming out the front then up.

Tilting the head to the left when viewing helps.

[iMustBeCrazy]

Ok, lets try this again:

 

In this photo we see lots of oil pipes, we see the oil pump (or is that pumps?) at the rear of the engine with pipes coming out the top and bottom, we see an oil line running under and going into the front of the engine and into the prop shaft.

 

In this photo we see a crankcase vent (fuzzy closest to the camera) and a junction block (mid engine) connecting a fuel line, coming from the rear of the engine, with the fuel lines going to the cylinders.

 

This photo showing the crankcase vent tied it all together.

 

This photo shows the oil pump (rear right, note the wide belt) better and a water pump (front right).

 

EDIT: I think it shows the oil pump and fuel pump (together) and the water pump.

Edited April 15 by iMustBeCrazy

[Greg Davis]

Today I felt the need to make something and take a break from understanding how Antoinette engines work. The project was the propeller components: blades, shafts, and spinner / big pulley assembly. All of these parts I made from aluminum.

The three blades were simultaneously cut using a scroll saw. I had sandwiched 3 sheets of 0.032" aluminum between 2 sheets of 1/8" plywood and cut the together. The shafts are 1/8" aluminum tubing. The spinner / pulley took the most time. I milled it using a rotary table, thinking I would get a better result than turning it on a lathe. 

 

Here's what the parts look like in a trial fitting:

Time to guess the pitch and then permanently fix the shafts into the spinner.

[Jim Lad]

Looks good!

 

John

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, Greg Davis said:

Today I felt the need to make something and take a break from understanding how Antoinette engines work.

I don't blame you. I've spent about eight hours trying to draw a plug lead. 🤬

 

[Greg Davis]

Starting to add components to the engine. Added aluminum funnels to the tanks and then permanently connected the tank structure to the engine. Made a small structure to represent the front coolant pump and connected it to the coolant funnel with copper wire that represents tubing. Made and added a pulley to the pump - currently the pulley has the same depth as the big pulley on the propeller shaft.

 

'If' I can learn what the off-to-the-right front pulley did, then I will add it in and replace the coolant pulley with one half as deep (already made if this happens) and run a pair of belts off the big pulley. If not, then the coolant pump will get a single wider belt.

[Greg Davis]

Coolant return piping in place:

Still need to connect them to the tank above. Not a lot of space left to work fuel lines in below the tank! Trying to make sure there remains some room to have the exhaust pipes pass across the engine block.

[Greg Davis]

Last bit of work for the day - the connections from the coolant pipes to the tank.

Glad to have these two pieces in place. I had worried about being able to make and install the returns so that they looked similar to those on the boat. I also was worried about drilling holes into the tank and the upper level of the coolant return since they were already in place. Same fear as cutting through planking for gunports! 

 

 

[amateur]

Looking almost real. I’m a bit strugling with respect to size. How long is the engine?

 

Jan

[Greg Davis]

7 hours ago, amateur said:

Looking almost real. I’m a bit strugling with respect to size. How long is the engine?

 

Jan

The engine block is 3.5" long - nearly 4" if you go to the front of the spinner.

[Greg Davis]

The radiators are now permanently connected to the model as are the copper air / fuel intakes.

Next up will be the exhaust pipes. Having them in place will make fitting the front radiator piping easier and is almost necessary before adding the coolant intake manifolds to the exterior of the cylinders.

[Jim Lad]

Greg, this is worse than rigging a sailing ship model! 😀

 

John

[Greg Davis]

18 minutes ago, Jim Lad said:

Greg, this is worse than rigging a sailing ship model! 😀

 

John

This is really stretching my skill set, and I am learning a lot - so that is good. At the same time, the project is reinforcing my like of ship models from about 1750 to 1850!

[Greg Davis]

Now the coolant can make it into the radiators! The front half of exhaust pipes are made and attached as well. The remaining eight exhaust pipes have a slightly different shape; while the front eight point down, the rear eight have a bend and point aft. They will be a little harder to form.

In retrospect, I should have attached the exhaust pipes earlier as now there is a reduced amount of work space and it seems my depth perception has been reduced as well! 

 

By the way, I fell back on soldering a short piece of brass tubing to a piece of soft brass wire to form the basis for each exhaust pipe. The wire was bent and cut to shape and black shrink tube was put over the wire to finish.

 

[Jim Lad]

Stick to it, Greg, it's coming along beautifully!

 

John

[Greg Davis]

14 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Stick to it, Greg, it's coming along beautifully!

 

John

Thanks for the encouragement! Definitely going to see this through - the finish is in sight.

 

Half of the remaining exhaust pipes formed and in place:

[AON]

What an interesting use of electrical wiring heat shrink tubing!

Now that is thinking outside the box.

[Greg Davis]

All the exhaust pipes are in place. The next big project will be getting coolant intake piping / etc. in place.

 

As a small diversion I have started building a case for the model. I've cut this trapezoidal piece of wood to serve as a base board / raise the model up a bit. For the final presentation, I am looking for something remininsent of the picture of the No 18 that was taken in Santos-Dumont's workshop:

 

[Greg Davis]

More engine work today - added the coolant intake manifolds and the lower coolant pump together with the connections between the two. I'm using one of the castings from the Model Airways engine kit for the magneto and associated gearing. I've drilled 16 holes into the magneto to accept the ignition wires. I also added the lower half-round connection between the radiators. 

Besides installing the ignition harness and adding some piping from the lower radiator connection going back and up to the engine, I think this will be the end of the propulsion system (short of installing the propeller). I think I'm now at the limit of what I can reasonably do on this part of the model.

 

Some rigging will be coming soon to wrap the project up for now - at least until additional relevant information on the Santos-Dumont No18 Hydroplane surfaces!

 

P.S. Yesterday's requested side project:

[iMustBeCrazy]

Greg, I found some bigger/better photos of the V8, https://muzea.malopolska.pl/en/objects-list/650

 

 

[Greg Davis]

3 hours ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

Greg, I found some bigger/better photos of the V8, https://muzea.malopolska.pl/en/objects-list/650

 

 

Thanks for sharing - this looks like a later model than was used by Santos-Dumont on the 14bis. Those copper water jackets must have been a joy to produce! Also, quite a different air intake than the 'spider' version!

[Greg Davis]

Here's what the model looks like with the propeller unit in place:

Return piping for the coolant to make it back from the radiators was also added today. I'm waiting on some resin spark plug boots to see if they will make the ignition harness wiring look better than what I could do on my 14bis model. Then some rigging...

 

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

1 hour ago, Greg Davis said:

Also, quite a different air intake than the 'spider' version!

Well this version is fuel injected and has no way of controlling the amount of air ingested. The fuel injection pump timing adjustment (both coarse and fine) is interesting and the untimed pump will be oil. The water pump is hiding in the housing below and all three in this case are gear driven.

 

As far as I can see Alberto didn't use fuel injection so yours should have a couple of carburettors, but I suspect you don't have any space left.

[Greg Davis]

5 minutes ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

Well this version is fuel injected and has no way of controlling the amount of air ingested. The fuel injection pump timing adjustment (both coarse and fine) is interesting and the untimed pump will be oil. The water pump is hiding in the housing below and all three in this case are gear driven.

 

As far as I can see Alberto didn't use fuel injection so yours should have a couple of carburettors, but I suspect you don't have any space left.

You are right - space is tight, but I did include use couple of pieces of aluminum under the spiders to represent the carburetors!

[Greg Davis]

On 5/2/2025 at 9:07 PM, iMustBeCrazy said:

As far as I can see Alberto didn't use fuel injection so yours should have a couple of carburettors, but I suspect you don't have any space left.

Here's a picture that came from an October 19, 1907 Scientific American article where the intake spider is not in place, but you can see the carburetors. I guess one would need to be reversed to accept fuel from the tank funnel that is between the two carburetors on Santos-Dumont's No 18 set-up.

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

Alberto must have owned a worm cannery, there are more worms here than in Bounty's small cutter.

 

1 hour ago, Greg Davis said:

I guess one would need to be reversed to accept fuel from the tank funnel that is between the two carburetors on Santos-Dumont's No 18 set-up.

No worms here, just run the fuel line to a 'T' and from that to each carb, no need to turn anything around.

 

On to the worms.

I was going to say you were lucky as on the Demoiselle the carburettor was under the wing wrapped in a piece of cloth which means I can't see it to draw it.

When looking for a photo I realised that was on the 19 not the 20 I'm doing.

Then I noticed the fuel tank with the associated plumbing, can of worms number one, this engine is air cooled, what's the plumbing for? The oil tank looks to be at the front of the engine.

 

On the 20, the plumbing to the fuel tank is definitely coolant (it comes from the water jackets around the cylinders) which opens can of worms number two, why would you heat the fuel to above it's boiling point?

Problems raised (for me) neither the coolant hose from the tank (there must be one, right?) or the carburettor (of the 20) are shown in any photos.

 

 

[Greg Davis]

15 hours ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

Problems raised (for me) neither the coolant hose from the tank (there must be one, right?) or the carburettor (of the 20) are shown in any photos.

What is the conical structure behind the pilot seat on the No20? Could that be fuel and the double cone on top just coolant? I like the radiator piping along the wing panels!

[iMustBeCrazy]

12 minutes ago, Greg Davis said:

Could that be fuel and the double cone on top just coolant?

On the 20, yes (brain fade) the big one behind the pilot seat is fuel.

But on the 19 there should be no coolant so it looks like he's using the fuel tank as an oil cooler or he's using the oil to heat the fuel (the oil tank in front of the engine would also act as an oil cooler).

The piping appears to pass through the fuel tank.

I don't know if there was a problem with something like wax in early fuels but I can't imagine why you would heat your fuel to the point it starts boiling off. 😟

 

On the 20, you're right, it's a coolant header tank. I assume it's unpressurised so the 'conning tower' out the top is to allow steam to condense and/or water to settle or perhaps not slop out when turning?