Hobby Laser Machine

[kgstakes]

I've been looking at laser cutting machines lately, and I'm not sure I'm ready yet for one but would like your comments on any laser cutter that you have used, wouldn't use, no way you would buy, etc. 

 

I would be using this machine for myself, no business, just different projects I would like to do.  Mainly used for making structures and parts for building miniature furniture to scale horse drawn vehicles and possibly parts for boats or ships I might like to build.

 

Let me know, one, are they worth the price for a hobbyist to own one and/or two too much money for not using on a day to day operation.  Or even weekly for that matter.

 

Like to see and hear what you think about owning a laser for building scale miniatures.  Whether it be ships, buildings, RC, etc.

 

Thank you for your time and look forward to any comments you may have.

[tmj]

21 hours ago, kgstakes said:

Let me know, one, are they worth the price for a hobbyist to own one and/or two too much money for not using on a day to day operation.  Or even weekly for that matter.

That is subject to your own personal feelings. Some folks would say it was worth it while others would disagree. What it is worth to 'YOU' is all that really matters. 😉

[Desertanimal]

I’m not very versed in lasers but the main thing is the thickness of material. After you know that, you can look at machines that can cut it squarely. Underpowered machines will wander vertically in the cut. You may find machines that can cut the thickness of material you want to cut will be expensive.
You might want to consider farming out the work, hopefully locally. That way you don’t have to maintain the machine. Just pick up you cut material from the guy that has the giant, fast machine you wouldn’t want to afford. 
Chris

[sheepsail]

I have been working with laser for six or 7 years (pre pandemic.)  If one counts sending stuff out then the number is closer to 25 years.

 

One reason this laser was doated (loaned to the makerspace) was it was in the owner's garage prior to downsizing.  Even in the light industrial space it has to have a fairly significant exhaust system.  Newly cut parts usually have a burned smell.   This one has about a 1 meter square bed.  It only can cut up to about 1/4 plywood.

 

Lasers have a focal point, so there will always be a taper to the cut.  I did have some fairly thick parts cut for a smallish Calliope Pipe organ decades ago.  The largest thickness about an inch and a quarter.

 

Most CNC machines are only as good as the lead screws and bearing.   There are fiber lasers what are optical, and use galvonomiters they have lens distortion and only cut small things that are less than about 3x3 inches.

 

Small crafting lasers show up from time to time.  I found a couple in e-Waste recycle.  Not much use, they used old floppy disk/Cd drive plates for the axis.  These do not do vector cutting, only rastering.

 

My recommendation.  (which is basically what I did.) Is to seek out a shared workspace like a makerspace or library that has the equipment.  Often these are underused.  The local one gets used a lot before the winter holidays.  

 

I find it helps to have my own copy of the software (Lightburn.)  Which works a bit like Adobe illustrator, and can trace over the illustrations.  That way I can work on the designs, and have them ready to go.   This also has the option where one can send them out should something more be needed.

 

At the moment I am working on seeing how well this works to create some basic ship parts.  So this is an interesting area to explore.  It does however become a whole side focus (pun intended) and can vacuum up time with ease.

 

I have made everything from watch parts to plush toys to photographic equipment.  They can be versatile.

 

Edited Friday at 02:27 AM by sheepsail
typo and spelling corrections.

[paul ron]

the question is how much use will it get? i considered getting one, but after some scrutiny, i realized it will just sit next to the tredmill that has several winter coats hanging on it. 

 

the once in a blue moon i want something done... id put out a call to the guys in here that have lots of experiance and wouldnt mind making some extra gas money. besides, if i were to do my own, it would take me a long learning curve and plenty of wasted material figuring it out. 

 

then consider which machine you want... go cheap or go all out for a top of the line? go cheap usually means poor results and frustration. go over the top, great quality but a big outlay for a first time starter you may not like anyway.

 

so is it worth the efforts?... unless you plan on doing alot of design n printing as a new hobby?

 

a parallel experiance... photography printers. i bought a top of the line printer to make large prints. special roll paper, big tanks of ink.... and lots of waste, expensive waste. i sold it at half price when the ink ran out because a set of inks was just way to expensive. instead, when i need large prints, i go wo wallmart up the block which prints on million dollar printers. if i dont like the quality, they redo it at no extra cost.

 

as said before, its a personal choice. 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 10:29 PM by paul ron

[tmj]

I too considered a laser, but opted to purchase a tabletop CNC router instead. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to repair and takes up way less space. No laser char to deal with either! You can also carve 3D objects with the router where you can't with a laser. The below CNC router, on Amazon, also sells a 4th axis accessory that rotates like a lathe for carving round items. I think, for the money, a good CNC router is a lot more versatile than a laser.

 

[kgstakes]

I’ve thought of a cnc router also mainly because my profession is woodworking and I could use it there also.

 

 But I always see kits that have been laser cut so I just figure the laser was the better way to go.

 

 Thank you all for your input more I have allot of thinking and questioning myself is it worth having either a laser or a cnc router at this time.

 

 

[Gregory]

I think a laser would be great for your miniature work.

Browse through my Rattlesnake and Resolution builds to see how I have put a laser to use.

To show you can make some fairly small precision parts, here is a link that shows how I made some fiddle blocks.

I would highly recommend LIghtBurn for driving the laser.

 

I have an older 20W Xtool  that serves me well but If I were buying today I would go with the xTool S1 20W.

 

Ventilation is a primary concern and with the Xtool all you need is a vent hose to get the smoke and fumes outside.

 

Let me know if you have other questions you think I might answer.

[paul ron]

12 hours ago, tmj said:

I too considered a laser, but opted to purchase a tabletop CNC router instead. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to repair and takes up way less space. No laser char to deal with either! You can also carve 3D objects with the router where you can't with a laser. The below CNC router, on Amazon, also sells a 4th axis accessory that rotates like a lathe for carving round items. I think, for the money, a good CNC router is a lot more versatile than a laser.

 

what are the computer interface requirements? 

[tmj]

14 minutes ago, paul ron said:

what are the computer interface requirements? 

Either connect to computer 'or' transfer files via flash drive.

[kgstakes]

16 hours ago, tmj said:

I too considered a laser, but opted to purchase a tabletop CNC router instead. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to repair and takes up way less space. No laser char to deal with either! You can also carve 3D objects with the router where you can't with a laser. The below CNC router, on Amazon, also sells a 4th axis accessory that rotates like a lathe for carving round items. I think, for the money, a good CNC router is a lot more versatile than a laser.

 

Do you have the have the 3D option on your router?  I've looked at these for years and thought I could do so much with one but never pulled the trigger.  Then lasers came out and thought that would be cool to have too.  I'm up in the air with what I want to do.  I've been building my miniatures with the tools I have and just thought a laser or like you said a cnc router would be cool to do some of the things I can't really do well by hand.  Like carve the intricate details on some miniatures that I would like to build.

 

Examples: These are all 1/12 scale

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 03:51 PM by kgstakes

[tmj]

Most all of the CNC routers are 3D. The one shown in my picture is CNC 'plus' has that 4th axis (the horizontal lathe like thing in the foreground). Fox Alien and Genmitsu are popular brands. 3D capabilities are the main reason I went CNC. 

[wefalck]

As in the case of purchasing any kind of machine tool, it is useful to make a list of fundamental specification and capabilities needed:

 

- Which are the maximum dimensions of parts I want to produce?

- What is the maximum thickness of materials I want to work with?

- What kind of materials do I want to work with?

- What sort of operations I want to do, i.e. cutting out 2d-objects or sculpting 3d-objects (2-axis router vs. 3-axis milling machine)

- What is the spatial resolution needed?

- Do my objects have have to have sharp corners or can I live with or hand-treat rounded corners?

 

Then also a list of possible constraints is helpful:

 

- Do I have the surface space to permanently accomodate the machine ? (moving it around may cause alignment issues)

- Do I have the possibility to vent out fumes?

- Do I have connections for cooling water? (needed for some types of lasers)

- When do I want to work with it re. nuisance due to noise produced by routers

- How can I manage dust?

 

'Sculpting' with a laser in principle is possible by modulating the power and/or the lengths of pulses and the number of repeated passes. However, it always will result in charred surfaces and removing the charred wood form small intricate parts can be difficult, particularly when one wants to have the 'real' wood surface in the end.

 

On the other hand, the laser works 'contact-less', which is particularly useful for very small and delicate parts.

 

[Gregory]

Good info from @wefalck. 

 

Laser is not your best option, if at all, for detailed carving.

[Cleat]

I bought a Genmistu 3018 PROVer several years ago.  It can be configured to use a laser or a spindle motor; I bought a package that included both.   I had a project that could use the laser to burn graphics in wood (a fancy wood burner).  I upgraded my machine with an expansion kit to increase the work envelope of the machine. The Genmistu is a good learning machine and they also have good support.

 

I discovered the spindle configuration is helpful in model ship building.  The first thing I made was stairway sections to replace broken pieces.  I took measurements, drew it up in CAD software, converted the file using CAM software, and ran the G-code file using controller software to operate the machine; I was able to duplicate the original parts.  I made a jig by routing a shape for railings, I used the jig to bend brass wire and made railings that all turned out the same.  I scanned a plywood piece and created pieces to cover the plywood by cutting walnut veneer with the spindle. 

 

Learning a hobby CNC machine requires that you learn a variety of software.  I found the laser configurations with Lighburn software was easy to learn, Lightburn is probably the preferred laser/machine control software; it can be used to design and control your machine.  For the spindle configuration I used free software but you need to know how to troubleshoot different software working with each other (I experienced frustration until I figured it out).  Based on my experience with the Genmistu I bought a Onefinity CNC router for my garage, a bigger, more powerful machine.  I also got VCarve software to produce G-code files for my Onefinity. it is a complete product like Lightburn except it is for routers (I can use it for both of my machines).  VCarve can also produce carvings using clipart.

 

I wrote manuals to operate and service industrial CNC machines so I have the basic knowledge of how G-code works and how CNC machines work.  This is useful knowledge but it isn't necessary if you have good software like Lightroom or VCarve.   I bought my first hobby machine to perform a specific project but I knew there is potential for other uses.  I considered the cost to be tuition to learn CNC software and processes.  Manufactures often have forums that I've used to help solve problems.  I use my garage CNC router more often than my bandsaw now. 

 

 

[thibaultron]

For really small detailing, you might want to check out the 

3030-PROVer MAX CNC Router Machine with Linear Guide & Ball Screw Motion, Achieve ±0.05mm Accuracy for High Precision Metal Aluminum Copper Acrylic Engraving, Supports 4th Axis Rotary Kit

It has ballscrews for the axis feedscrews. The stated accuracy is + .05mm or 0.002 inches.

[paul ron]

21 hours ago, tmj said:

Either connect to computer 'or' transfer files via flash drive.

i was refering to OS compatability, formats, subscriptions, software, blue tooth, internet... etc. can i hook it up to my DOS compter?... how about XP?... see what i mean?

 

not the physical wiring to the computer which would probably be USB these days. my 40 year old comercial cnc had a board you installed in the computer, another was a stand alone unit or i could use a printer port.

 

 

 

 

[kgstakes]

Thanks for all the information.  One of my past jobs (for 10 years) I was operating a laser and a waterjet to cut out metal parts.  We would import the customers project into a computer program (sigmanest) and then send it to either machine and run the program.  

 

One down fall of this job is that only one person really knew G code and how to fix any problems with the machines.  So as for knowing G code or M code, nope not much.  So a program and manual is definitely a must and tech support a plus as well.

 

For what I would like to do - miniature work as well as larger items (gifts, signs, etc.) a larger cnc router that can still do the fine delicate work would be great.

 

As for space (someone mentioned that) I have a wood shop and I can easily find a spot for it and hook it up to air and my dust collection system.  Noise would not be a problem either because the shop is in a separate building from the house.  Bonus, the shop building is actually considered commercial property so even starting a business with the cnc router would have no affect (noise) to the other surrounding area just because that building is a commercial building.

 

It really all boils down to dollars and cents.  How much am I wanting to spend on a machine that to start would be a hobby machine and then maybe later put to work making some money with it.  To me, start small and then upgrade.  But then again, my thinking has always been buy the best you can for the project or projects that you have to do.  I've bought many woodworking machines due to the fact I needed them to complete a customers job and then I had the machine to continue making me money with that particular machine added to my shop of tools.  Hope that all made since.

 

Anyway, thank you for your ideas, comments, etc. and I just need to take a good hard look at what I want to do with a particular machine and is it worth buying a rather expensive "tool" to just do hobby stuff at this time. 

 

With all the comments and suggestions I'm leaning more towards a cnc router just because of the bigger projects I might want to do down the road with the machine.  

 

Thanks again.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  My Admiral has an ETSY shop that does generate income, but she started with a hobby many years ago.  Then started making things for a few people here and there, then started selling at craft shows - all the time increasing her skill and expertise making historical costumes.  The ETSY platform had a slow start, but clientele and reputation were successively built so that it h as become an effective 'side hustle'.  See what happened with Syren products, and then with Ropes of Scale.  Its all about finding a niche market and supplying it.  Its what free enterprise is all about.

Best of luck mate, at whatever you do !     Johnny

[kgstakes]

22 hours ago, tmj said:

Most all of the CNC routers are 3D. The one shown in my picture is CNC 'plus' has that 4th axis (the horizontal lathe like thing in the foreground). Fox Alien and Genmitsu are popular brands. 3D capabilities are the main reason I went CNC. 

Yeah that’s what I was asking don’t know why I said 3D.  Anyway thank you for clarifying that for me.

[tmj]

5 hours ago, paul ron said:

i was refering to OS compatability, formats, subscriptions, software, blue tooth, internet... etc. can i hook it up to my DOS compter?... how about XP?... see what i mean?

Hmm... I'm not sure about that one. 

[thibaultron]

For CNC machining , as far as software, you will need at least windows 10, for compatibility with the other software. UGS software (free) is used to drive the CNC router directly from your computer, with newer CNC machines, via an USB cable. Some of the newest machine can use a thumb drive directly, to cut the file.

 

To create the cutting files you need a "Creator" program to generate the cut files. The general ones are Easel (a very basic program, with limited 3D object usefulness). It requires an on going subscription. Carbide Create, better but not full 3D object machining and limited 3D model creation) also a subscription based program, with a high monthly fee. VCarve, Desktop ~$350 to purchase, no monthly subscription. For modeling you will still need to use some type of 3D CAD program to create the original scale model. The typical two used are both subscription based SketchUp and Fusion 360. I have not tried it but Blender is supposed to also be able to create 3D files that you can use to send the the CNC programs previously mentioned, and it is free! Others will have to chime in on the Blender option.

[mnewsholme]

Fusion 360 is free for personal use.

 

[tmj]

12 minutes ago, mnewsholme said:

Fusion 360 is free for personal use.

That is true. I have the free 'personal use' version myself.

[paul ron]

3 hours ago, thibaultron said:

For CNC machining , as far as software, you will need at least windows 10, for compatibility with the other software. UGS software (free) is used to drive the CNC router directly from your computer, with newer CNC machines, via an USB cable. Some of the newest machine can use a thumb drive directly, to cut the file.

 

To create the cutting files you need a "Creator" program to generate the cut files. The general ones are Easel (a very basic program, with limited 3D object usefulness). It requires an on going subscription. Carbide Create, better but not full 3D object machining and limited 3D model creation) also a subscription based program, with a high monthly fee. VCarve, Desktop ~$350 to purchase, no monthly subscription. For modeling you will still need to use some type of 3D CAD program to create the original scale model. The typical two used are both subscription based SketchUp and Fusion 360. I have not tried it but Blender is supposed to also be able to create 3D files that you can use to send the the CNC programs previously mentioned, and it is free! Others will have to chime in on the Blender option.

thanks for the info...

 

dont laugh... i once had an old monster of a 3d cnc router that ran on an ibm XT with a special board and a dongle. 3d printing machines were uv cure epoxy extruders. man that was space age technology back then.