ratlines,tarred or not?

[pirozzi]

On actual ships, the rattling was left without tar, but the shrouds that they were tied to were indeed tarred.

 

Vince P.

[popeye2sea]

The following is excerpted from Steel's Elements and Practices of Rigging.

 

Ropes should be made of nothing inferior to Riga or the best Petersburgh hemp, well hatchelled, to clear the ends, which else, in spinning, would run in with the long hemp. One pint or more of oil, according to the quality of the hemp, should be used to every hundred weight, to oil the ends, (which is done with a wad of hemp,) that they may pass free in hatchelling, and from the sides of the spinner when spinning.

After the hemp is properly cleaned by the hatchell, it is spun into yarn. In spinning, the spinner must be careful to hold his hand close; otherwise the yarn will be neither round nor smooth. The spinning-wheel must be kept turning a constant regular pace, that the yarn may be spun with a regular turn or twist; for, if slack-spun, it will break in warping or straining up.

 
60
  In general, every yarn or thread for cordage should be spun the length of one hundred and sixty fathoms, and weigh from three and a half to four pounds; it should then be wound upon winches, and warped into hauls for tarring.

The yarn for tarring has a slight turn put into it,* and is laid by the side of the tar-kettle: a piece of rope is then tied to one end of the haul, and carried under the step in the tar-kettle, through the nipper and round the capstern, which, being turned, draws the yarn through the kettle, from whence it is hauled off and placed in the yarnhouse.

The tar must be well boiled before used, and kept gently boiling while the yarn is in the kettle. (Some think a brisk boiling makes brighter yarn.) If too hot, and the yarn not kept clear of the bottom, it will burn; if too cold, it will make it overweigh and clog. That all parts of the yarn may be equally tarred, the capstern should be kept regularly going; for if, by accident, it should stop, the yarn would burn; to prevent which, the step that keeps the yarn down must be instantly raised, and the yarn taken out.

Yarn for cables requires more tar than for hawser-laid ropes. For running and standing rigging, the less tar the better, provided the thread is well covered.

After yarn is tarred, it is laid in the yarn-house, for a day or two, to harden, before the hauls are opened, for making into ropes or strands for cables.

 

-end-

 

Ropes made up from tarred yarns were considered to be stronger than untarred.

 

Perhaps there were exceptions, but I think that all rope was tarred to some degree or another.  I also think that people are assuming that the tar was applied after the rope was laid up.  It was actually applied to the yarns before twisting into strands.  I also think that is why the standing rigging is darker.  I believe that those ropes were tarred again after being laid in order to make them more impervious to the wet.

Edited August 3, 2014 by popeye2sea

[jud]

popeye2sea; Thanks for that post! It makes perfect sense to me and is something I had suspected was done when making rope. The details of the hows and whens I hadn't worked out.

jud.

[geoff]

that was some reply Popeye! Thanks a lot ! All this is very interesting and I suppose when it comes down to it, it is a matter of interpretation & personal preference. More research may be required!  Geoff

[dafi]

Thank you Popeye, that was the part I had in mind and could not find any more.

 

I think there are even contemporary sources that mention the tarring, I believe there was another mentioning in a log entry while the time of Glorious 1st of June or on the road to Trafalgar.

 

Now come the second interesting question: What colour did a tarred ratline show?

 

My personal guess is that it was a light brownish drab darker than the running rigging but much lighter than the shrouds. Is there anybody who has knowledge upon the old craftsmanship of rope making? Any experimental archeologist?

 

Cheers, Daniel

Edited August 3, 2014 by dafi

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

2 treenails tar covered

1 from 1950

1 from 1750 at least that is what the  paper says

[dafi]

Some picture I found years ago on the net, if I remeber well from the "original" rig of the Batavia replica. Unfortunately no idea who to give the credits for ...

 

From a stay

 

Tarred twine

 

XXXDAn

Edited August 3, 2014 by dafi

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

We had the same talk in MSW 1.0 about the lanyard.  ‘’Because lanyards are often adjusted, they were left untared’’. I respect this understanding, and I did read similar facts. I understand that nobody want to have tar on his hands.  I also understand today’s practice with more resistant ropes.

I cannot envision shrouds tar, ratlines and lanyards untared, the end of the lanyards and the ratlines wind around the shrouds.  I think that cross-contamination also existed in that period. I find that strange that they would protect shrouds but not ratlines and lanyards. I do not think that salty waves saved more untared ropes.

 

Here is how I see the color difference in standing and running rigging; this morning.  A ship freshly coming out from the factory would have 1 color in the rigging. After few times at sea, moving rigging passing through the sheaves with high tensions caused by weights they lift surely had a faster abrasion rate and for this reason discolored faster. If I wanted to represent a model after few months at sea, I would use 1 color for fixed ropes and 1 shade lighter for the moving ropes.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

some are some are not depending the reason you want to use

[AndrewNaylor]

This is fantastic

What a bucket of TAR has been opened and some members of "Great depth" have added there thoughts and very educated opinions

John Harrison ( who made the odd pocket watch ) knew that if you added OIL to a moving part, it collected dust/ grime/ filth therefor making a rubbing compound rather than a lubricant. I am sure that lines used regally  where Not tarred but standing rigging would have been.  Running rigging was inspected daily, as where the blocks. the standing rigging had to be relayed on as it was protected from ROT with Swedish oil etc

The standing rigging on the yacht that I drive is inspected every 5 years Rig out and all wire /rod inspected, But every day I use running rigging Sheets, halyards etc I check them as they pass through my hands and report to "OH" yes me.

Andy

[JerryTodd]

They're tarred, like it or not.  Get up there and try to slop the shrouds and NOT do the rats.

 

BTW: The lanyards are tarred too.

Edited August 4, 2014 by JerryTodd

[Tadeusz43]

Sometimes they are tarred and sometimes not.

Fot.1,2 HMS Victory

Fot.3 VOC Amsterdam

FOt.4 VOC Batavia

 

Tadeusz

[JerryTodd]

Vicky is a static model, not a working ship

[dafi]

On top of it the Vic has synthetic fibres. All references should show natural fibers to give a comparison.

 

The colour of the synthetics is a pure design-thing, I do not think that they are tarred or any other substances applied. Perhaps they are still served to avoid chafing, but no reason to protect them against rot ;-)

 

I think the biggest challenge for us is to come away from the thought that tarred means greasy-sticky-thick-black stuff around the rope. Look at the second picture of my entry #38 and you know what I mean. I think that there should be still lighter tarred versions available. 

 

Cheers, Daniel

Edited August 4, 2014 by dafi

[geoff]

I apologise unreservedly for opening this "can of worms"! Nevertheless, it is certainly very interesting & I don't think we will ever find a definitive answer because I don't think there is one!   Geoff

[dafi]

Do not apologize Geoff, that is the interesting bit. We model makers are very traditional - means stubborn - and once a thought is set, it is difficult to get it out. 

 

But it is worth rattling*** on those believes, or we would still use shrouds with differnt twists for starbord and port as mentioned in Mondfeldt´s "bible".

 

Funnily we have a similar discussion about the color of the ropes in our german forum triggered by the brown ratlines of my build and also there the discussion goes away from the black and white thinking to a renewed written book: 50 Shades of Brown :-)

 

It does not solve the initial question yet about the color of the ratlines. Even if tarred - what color does that mean, most probably not black ...

 

XXXDAn

 

 

PS: *** no pun intended ;-)

Edited August 4, 2014 by dafi

[geoff]

thanks Dafi ,I feel much better now!!      Oh by the way, the Indian Ink has gone in the bin!! :D

[dgbot]

Many years ago at N.R.G. Conference one of the directors has a good argument with another member on certain topic. They both told the same thing over a beer. Nothing like asking a known question to get a new view on the facts in history. In this case if memory serves me was on how much did the US Navy gain from French shipbuilding practices during the war of 1812 or was pure Yankee invention. Stir the pot every now then and you will find something else in it,

David B

[AndrewNaylor]

Geoff

A great discussion topic never apologize look at the interest its caused

Andy

[trippwj]

Just to liven things up (so to speak), here are two excerpts from Alexander D. Fordyce: Outline of Naval Routine (1837) http://books.google.com/books?id=vPANAQAAMAAJ

 

RATLING RIGGING (pages 45 - 46)

 

Girt out the Rigging with a Fore and Aft Swifter, but not very much out of the straight line; then spar it down with spare Spars, Studding-sail Yards, Boat's Oars or Hand-spikes, all seized on carefully square.

 

Nettle-stuff made from Bolt-rope Yarns, or something equivalent, is very necessary for seizing the Ratlings with; and, if new, it ought to be well and carefully stretched previous to cutting. The best Seizing-stuff should be preserved till the new Ratlings have been a little worn.

 

Fourteen or sixteen inches is a good distance between the Ratlings, and their places should be calked off all the way up and down before commencing. Each man employed should have a measure within his reach, and special care should be taken to make the Ratlings of the one side correspond in parallel direction with those of the other. This can only be seen from outside.

 

Make the Hitches neat, Eyes small, and Ratlings square one with the other. Few things tend more to snug appearance.

 

If the Rigging is to blacked after Ratling down, it is best to leave the Spars on till that is done; but if the Rigging is not to be blacked, the Spars may be taken off as the new Seizings are finished and blacked.

 

BLACKING RIGGING. (pages 46-47)

 

When blacking new Rigging for the first time, the best mixture will perhaps be found to be Stockholm Tar, Coal Tar, and Salt Water, in equal proportions, and heated up in the Fish Kettle, over which a Sentry should be placed. After the first blacking, half the quantity of Stockholm Tar is sufficient; Coal Tar alone being always used for the Yards and Bends.

 

The most convenient method of Blacking Rigging is with Top-gallant Masts on deck, but Royal and Top-gallant Rigging placed at Mast-heads; for the men who ride down and black the Topmast Stays, can then at the same time black the Topgallant and Royal Stays handily; or, what is handier still, men at the Mast-head haul over and black these small Stays, and pay them down forward when done; the men, also, who black down the Topmast Backstays, can carry on at the same time with Topgallant and Royal Backstays. In addition to all which, the Masts are kept clean.

 

If, on the other hand, Top-gallant Masts be kept up when Blacking, the Small Stays and Backstays must be let go, in order that they may be got at by the men on the Topmast Stays and Backstays; consequently, the Masts must be adrift, and exhibit a specimen of slovenliness unbecoming a Man-of-War. The Masts will, moreover, be daubed over with Blacking; and if it come on to blow so as to render it necessary to get Topgallant Masts on deck before the Rigging be dry, much injury must result to the Blacking.

 

Previous to commencing, the Decks should be well sanded, and the Paint-work and Figure-head carefully covered with old Canvas and Hammocks. The Quarter Tackle should be clapped on one side of Main Yard, and a Burton on the other, ready for Provisioning and Clearing Boats.

 

The Hammocks should also be covered, and the Quarter Boats lowered out of the way.

 

The finer and warmer the day, the better. The Blacking will lay on so much the smoother and thinner; but commencement should be delayed till the dew is well dried off.

 

Topsail and Lower-lifts should be blacked first; the men having to stand upon the Yards to do them.

 

A smooth, calm day is required for the Bends ; for the Blacking will not take effect, unless the surface it is laid upon be dry.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Few words from; Traité de construction by Blaise Olivier, 1736, book I am using for the construction of Le Fleuron; this book is written as a dictionary:

 

White ropes

 

Ropes with no tar like the rope for the flags and the wheel rudder

 

Tarred ropes

 

Ropes passed in hot tar. All the ropes entering for the ship are tared excepted for the white ropes

 

Tar

 

Used in few harbors to coat the sculptures of ships.

Ropes are passed in hot tar so they resists to water hot sun

[geoff]

thanks for that Wayne,they certainly knew how to explain things in those days, why use one word when ten will do! I have been reading "The Warship Mary Rose" by David Childs & some of the letters sent to Henry VIII are almost illegible! There are so many conflicting explanations that I don't thing there really is a definite answer, but all the more interesting for all that!

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I saw that:

 

Hello

I work at the  Swedish East India Man Gothenburg, all our standing and running rigging is made of hemp, therefore we use a lot of Stockholm tar to preserve the ropes, stays, shrouds ect... to prevent them from rot.

Stockholm tar is quite thick and if you paint it on a rail served with rope it will just be thick layer of tar on the outside of the rope that does not impregnate extremly well and it more or less never dries.
You want the tar to impregnate the rope thoroughly to prevent it from rot. What we do at Gothenburg is that we have a small electrical stove which we put a pot full of water on and then we put the pot with tar in in the water. We heat up the tar until it is not thick at all, like water (about 60 degrees celsius i think, for the tar). Then we paint the tar on the rope, since it is like water, you do not get a thick layer, instead it impregnates the rope and when it dries it forms a very thin black layer on the rope which is no problem to tuch and it will not be sticky. This black layer might not from the first time you tar the rope but the rope will not be sticky anyway once it has dried.

The one thing that makes the tar dry best and fastest is the sun, if you use heated tar on a rope an leave it out in the sun it will dry in a few days, however it is important to paint thin layers if you want it to dry. Of course tar never completly dries but the sun  makes it dry enough so that you can tuch it without getting dirty.

All this is based on our experience with our ships rig and natural fiber ropes ropes.

Concerning the smell, in my experience, if you tar a small rail with a thin layer of tar and it is outside, the smell will not take over and you will get use to it. Others who are not use to the smell will most likeley notice it but I do not think they will be bothered by it. Once again this is based on my experience, and I do walk around a ship daily that has all its rigging soaked in tar and therefore my sense of smelling the tar might be a bit "damaged".

I hope this helps

[geoff]

thank you Gaetan for that very interesting insight. I think that myself & others tend to fall into the"Trap" that Tar is black & this is not necessarily so !  It just adds to the confusion!    Geoff

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Geoff, here is how I see it,

Tar has been used for centuries.  Fabrication naturally has been improved and the process became more refined. Tar was black up to let’s say 1750. After that with a more refined distillation(photo 1), the color changed to dark brown with variations, because of time and provenance of fabrication, pine family, quantity applied, different recipes in different harbors where it was used and sun effect. Basically, it is as easy as this. The application changed a lot. In the 1600 period, ropes were immerged in a hot tar bath and then steamed. In 1700, every strand is tarred before to turn a cable.

Variations in color are also known

Jean Boudriot in the ship of 74 guns shows the color photo 2). He also says that the color varied up to a reddish brown (photo 3).

Stockholm tar is the most refined quality tar produced. If we buy it today, it will be black, but it is surely not the 1780 recipe. The best tar came from Scandinavian forest. It is clear, fine and a bit red. Moscovy tar had a clear yellow color and darkens when cooked.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I'm reading Moby-Dick again and today I saw this, another of Melville's many digressions from the narrative. Chapter 60 starts off with a description of the whale line used in the boats, its the line attached to the harpoon. Since he mentions tar and the coloration I thought it would be nice to post it here:

CHAPTER 60. The Line.

With reference to the whaling scene shortly to be described, as well as for the better understanding of all similar scenes elsewhere presented, I have here to speak of the magical, sometimes horrible whale-line.

The line originally used in the fishery was of the best hemp, slightly vapoured with tar, not impregnated with it, as in the case of ordinary ropes; for while tar, as ordinarily used, makes the hemp more pliable to the rope-maker, and also renders the rope itself more convenient to the sailor for common ship use; yet, not only would the ordinary quantity too much stiffen the whale-line for the close coiling to which it must be subjected; but as most seamen are beginning to learn, tar in general by no means adds to the rope's durability or strength, however much it may give it compactness and gloss.

Of late years the Manilla rope has in the American fishery almost entirely superseded hemp as a material for whale-lines; for, though not so durable as hemp, it is stronger, and far more soft and elastic; and I will add (since there is an aesthetics in all things), is much more handsome and becoming to the boat, than hemp. Hemp is a dusky, dark fellow, a sort of Indian; but Manilla is as a golden-haired Circassian to behold."....

 

Golden haired Cirassian indeed. You can read the whole chapter (or the whole novel) here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2701/2701-h/2701-h.htm#link2HCH0060

Edited August 12, 2014 by JerseyCity Frankie

[JerryTodd]

The Manila he refers to isn't the garbage sold under that name today.

[geoff]

thanks Jersey City & Jerry. I do not really think we are anywhere nearer to the "Definitive" answer because there are so many conflicting answers that make topics like this so interesting!!  Long live the MSW& NRG!!