Newsworthy updates from Chris Watton

[chris watton]

Hi Chris

Your Victory will be a marvelous work of art.

Concerning sails - I prefer to have some on a sailing (!) ship. Out of laziness I showed them furled on my last 2 builds (and will do the same on Pegasus). Therefore I appreciate any help with the sails included in the kit.

I was wondering about the coppering on your Victory. Believing that the point of those left and right copper plates was to put them on overlapping (where the ‘missing’ line of nails would be covered by the next plate, creating a regular nail pattern over the whole area) I now get the impression that you put them on side by side. Perhaps you can help me with some questions:

• Were they plates actually put on overlapping on the prototypes?
• Wouldn’t it be easier (and perhaps cheaper) to make just one sort of plates, where the overlapping part covers the nails of the plate below? Excellent as they are this wouldn’t be a problem with the nail heads to be covered.
• And what’s the point of left and right plates if you put them on side by side? You create a nail pattern were plates seem not properly attached on 2 sides.?

Thank you for clarification.

 

Take care

Peter

Hi Peter,

 

The plates can be overlapping or not, the point is that you don't have to overlap them to give the illusion of overlap. We studied quite a few photographs of real copper plating to get them right, and what we did was the best solution. I for one was not going to argue with how they seemed to be attached on the real thing - so I simulated what I seen from the sources I used. On the Victory, some are overlapping but most are not.

 

As for cost, it makes zero difference, the cost goes into the etching process and the materials used and has little to do with what's etched. If they were all the same, the same amount of material is still used.

[chris watton]

Chris,

 

I would recommend including a set of flags with the kit, but not sails. I have always included flags (and pennants) with my models. I think they are a nice "finishing touch." For those who would want to make sails, a plan set included with the kit would be nice. If the interest is high, Amati can always make a full suit of actual cut sails available as an option.

 

Assuming you drive the completed Vic to Italy this Fall, I understand your job is basically done. I get that you can't accurately guess on how long it will take to put this model into production - however.... can you (please) tell us how long it took Amati to get the Vanguard (or the Pegasus) into kit boxes?

 

Ron

Adding sail material is of little cost to the overall costing of the kit, so material will be included. Some countries like sails more than others (especially Germany, it seems). Sail plans will be included.

 

After Victory is delivered, I still have much to do - sorting the thousands of construction photographs, adding them to a manual using Quark Xpress, finalising all the construction drawings in CAD to make the plan sheets..it goes on. I anticipate another 6 months of solid PC work to finalise the plans/instructions aspect so that most modeller's can make sense of all the parts. usually, I do all the designs and plans/instructions before I even see any tangible prototype parts, but I had to make sure that what I designed for Victory actually worked (as it's so different to the standard stuff), otherwise that's 6 months work wasted if I had made a catastrophic error - and end up spending yet another 6 months re working the plans.

 

Time frame - I simply don't know - I would hope that perhaps Summer 2014 may be a good bet. I know that Vanguard was 6 months from start to finish, but that's a 'traditional' kit. Victory will take at least twice as long, but as most of the problems (by problems, I mean sorting out certain aspects that were initially difficult for the end user, but re-worked so they're not)  have been ironed out, the next will be quicker.

[realworkingsailor]

Actually... If you don't mind me bringing up the copper plate subject one more time... A small suggestion... For those of us who are half cracked enough to add plates to the leading edge of the stem, or the like, would it be possible to supply a small quantity of plates that are symmetrical, as opposed to the directional left/right plates on offer?

 

Andy

[chris watton]

Actually... If you don't mind me bringing up the copper plate subject one more time... A small suggestion... For those of us who are half cracked enough to add plates to the leading edge of the stem, or the like, would it be possible to supply a small quantity of plates that are symmetrical, as opposed to the directional left/right plates on offer?

 

Andy

Actually, as you did bring it up, I have designed special copper plating for awkward areas, which does include the leading edge of the bow and stem (in one whole strip each with different 'nail' patterns) - for the latter, the strip is pre-tapered, as is the strip for the back edge of the rudder. As for the rudder itself, there is one piece to add either side:

 

 

Ha!

Edited July 14, 2013 by chris watton

[NMBROOK]

Wow Chris

I have to hand it to you,your attention to detail on this kit is fastidious!I really do think this is going to be the kit to end all kits when it is released.At least I have plenty of time to save up because lets be realistic,I would put the price point at between £1200-£1500.Anything less and its a giveaway.I would hate to guesstimate what the total part count is going to be.

Kind Regards Nigel

[chris watton]

Wow Chris

I have to hand it to you,your attention to detail on this kit is fastidious!I really do think this is going to be the kit to end all kits when it is released.At least I have plenty of time to save up because lets be realistic,I would put the price point at between £1200-£1500.Anything less and its a giveaway.I would hate to guesstimate what the total part count is going to be.

Kind Regards Nigel

Thank you! However, I would very much doubt if the kit went on for sale  for that much. I suspect something between £750-900 - but that's nothing more than a gut feeling.

[NMBROOK]

Chris

At that pricepoint it's not that much more than Vanguard,and it wouldn't surprise me If a certain main competitors kit sales for the same vessel reduce drastically as a result!We will have to wait and see.To be honest I think,under a grand,and Amati would struggle to make em fast enough

Kind Regards Nigel

[WackoWolf]

Almost 1200.00 US money. Oh well, for a kit this good one would expect it to cost this much.

[chris watton]

The thing about kit price is that, most of the time, you get what you pay for. I remember paying almost £600 for my Sovereign of the Seas 20 years ago. The cost didn't end there, though: I bought new and better wood, had to change the model beyond original recognition to get it took even vaguely correct (even deck heights and bulwark lines and curves), new blocks, thread, fittings etc. The model, in reality ended up costing closer to £800. However, if made well enough, they can be sold for a lot more than the original cost of the kit and materials.

 

For me personally, I want to design stuff so that people like me do not have to throw out half the kit contents and buy better quality fittings/materials to make a half decent job of the finished project - it should all be there in the kit without me having to spend an extra dime, aside from paints/glues and tools - and most important of all, the kit I make, when complete has more than a passing resemblance to the vessel it purports to be - not 'It looks about right if you squint and ignore the oversized turned columns, and don't look at the bow and stern too closely...' No kit will ever be perfect due to production and material constraints, but that doesn't stop you trying to get close..

 

I have to admit that one of my pet hates are the sea of kits that, although cheap, are no more than caricatures of the original vessels (and that's even if the vessel that the model is based upon existed at all!) - when I see them made 'out of the box', they remind me the cheap and cheerful made up 'models' you see in every seaside shop. No matter how good a builder you are, they always end up looking like a cheap piece of Chinese furniture - it can be a 16th Century galleon or a 19th Century three decker, they all share the same fittings - and, speaking as a modeller, I do not like them. If you don't want your cheap kit to look like a piece of seaside tat, you will have to spend the equivalent of the original cost of the kit again. These were my thoughts from over 20 years ago, when in my early 20's, and my views haven't really changed that much since - but at least I can act upon them

[amateur]

A little bit (but not too much, I guess) off topic:

Is there anything known yet on the release data and price of Revenge?

 

Jan

Edited July 15, 2013 by amateur

[chris watton]

A little bit (but not too much, I guess) off topic:

Is there anything known yet on the release data and price of Revenge?

 

Jan

I think that your question is far from off topic - it just seems that Victory has taken over the thread..

 

I have little to no involvement in release dates - I am almost 1000 miles away from the Amati premises. However, I do know that I have been receiving a lot of Revenge files for final checking, so I can only assume it will be released very soon, as the files I look over are the completed booklets and plans with Italian translations added.

[WackoWolf]

Chris,

 

     I agree with you 100% about the price of the kit. If a person has to re-buy the wood, fittings, rope etc etc, then he or she has just paid close to a third of what the kit cost. But when you can buy a kit and don't really have to buy stuff for it to look like it should then you got your moneys worth and all that is left is for you to do the best that you can to make her look right. The old saying that you get what you pay for will be proven by this kit and then maybe other company's will follow along. We will see what happens with that last part. Thanks again for making a Beautiful kit for us Modelers now the waiting will begin as soon as you are done.

[joemo]

Chris,

 

I hope you will get a commission on all the Victory kits that will be sold through Amati.

Tell them to look at this Forum, at all the responses from the modelers around the world about this Kit

It can only be described as Excellent.

Joe

[Jaxboat]

Hi Chris,

Anything new? We're all suffering from withdrawl from our lack of Victory Prototype fix      

Best

Jaxboat

[Ulises Victoria]

Any news on this amazing new kit? I know I want it. Don't know if I will ever build it, but I want it!!!!

[chris watton]

Hiya!

 

I was waiting for the new parts I changed, but now I have added them. I have completed the hull but, frustratingly, I am still waiting for the figurehead, which will hamper rigging the underside of the bowsprit.

 

While I waited, I made up all of the yards, so now masts and yards are all 'blocked up'. Today, I stepped the masts and bowsprit into their permanent positions, after I finally completed the poop screen bulkheads, and the poop itself.

 

Here is why I waited for the new poop screen bulkhead parts - the one on the left is new and follows what's on the actual Victory now, and the one on the right is the old version, as seen in the John McKay books:

 

 

I added the escutcheons for the new doors, as I noticed them on the original Victory when studying the pictures I had taken, and the hinges as they actually appear for the side bulkheads - they were/are left in brass. 

 

And soon to be hidden..

 

Poop almost complete:

 

The photo etched assemblies for the flag lockers seemed to work quite well - and plenty of space above for the small cleats (The ones in the kit will be slightly larger than the ones shown and will be photo etched - I erred too much on the side of caution when drawing them and are just a tad small - but perfectly useable. One thing I don't like is using 'one size fits all' fittings, so cleats come in a few shapes and sizes with the smaller ones being photo etched and the larger ones laser cut.

 

And with a couple of bits added to the poop, the whole hull is now complete:

 

I was waiting for my anchor designs, too, which I have now made up - they are quite large...:

 

And that's it - masts stepped and boarding pikes added to the fore and main and I now have the boring task of shrouds and ratlines to look forward to, which I'll start very soon...

 

I don't really take a great many pics at the rigging stage, as I still think that good line drawings are better for the modeller to follow..

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[joemo]

Chris,

 

Can I have your Victory?

I will pay shipping to New York.

Just A dream

Joe

[Kevin]

why would Mckay get the screens so wrong? 

[Kevin]

Chris,

 

Can I have your Victory?

I will pay shipping to New York.

Just A dream

Joe

lol - i dont want the build - what i want is my photos to show it looking as good

[chris watton]

why would Mckay get the screens so wrong? 

They may well be correct - or both versions correct, I don't know. I would assume that they would have taken quite a battering in battle if they were just left hanging from the underside of the poop. They could have been remade many times, perhaps with slightly different openings..

I did want the parts to look the same as in the photographs I had taken, so I can add the pictures to the construction manual.

 

Oh yes - the upper poop rail (that has the fire bucket brackets) is photo etched, 3 layers of 0.4mm with the brackets on the uppermost rail - there is a slight lip above and below, with the middle being smaller, so photo etching the parts would look more to scale, which is what I did - plus of course you don't have to mark out and glue the 21 brackets in place, as they're already on there...

 

With the mizzen boom and bowsprit now gammoned in place, it really has taken over our dining room table..!

[Ulises Victoria]

In the second photo, just at the sides of the hole for the mizzen mast, there is a couple of cannons inside some walls. I don't think they had room to recoil. Where those like that in the real ship???

[chris watton]

In the second photo, just at the sides of the hole for the mizzen mast, there is a couple of cannons inside some walls. I don't think they had room to recoil. Where those like that in the real ship???

The bulkheads would have had to be removed before action, as the firing of the cannons would have made them recoil through the side screen bulkheads - that's for sure. On one side, I put one cannon sideways and the other next to it inside the gun port, and on the other side they are run out as normal. I would assume they would have been secured inside the side bulkheads in normal conditions (no action), and only run out when action was imminent and the screen bulkheads cleared away.

 

I simply chose to show three different ways of placing the cannon.

 

ETA - I also added the gun port 'window' frames and glazing to the starboard poop ports, the side which has the cannon run in, rather than out, but left the port side without the frames and cannon are shown run out. I did this because I am not 100% sure if these 'windows' were present at the time of Trafalgar, and are perhaps something added more recently. But again, it's the modellers' choice to fit them or not - but if I include them, then I have to show them, albeit on one side only..

Edited August 9, 2013 by chris watton

[Brigg Fair]

Thanks for sharing the development of this model with us.  It is really interesting to learn of the thought processes which lie behind the decisions you take.  I particularly like the way you handle the need for the 'basic' kit to have more of a passing resemblance to the real thing while allowing the more experience modeller ample opportunity the make the model 'his/her own.

 

You are to be congratulated on this project.  I'd also like to congratulate the (Managing Director?) of Victory Models who have had the courage and foresight to commission you to design and build this flagship model (pun intended....)

 

I'm more than impressed with the quarter galleries.  For me, these, along with the stern are a make or break item - these are spot on!

 

I have wondered about how you were going to tackle the three lanterns on the stern.  The original in Portsmouth has lanterns which are vertical on the leading face and a significant slope aft.  I can't make out from the photographs if the ones you have are like the original eccentric plan or a simple regular concentric plan section (like JoTiKa's).

 

I had planned on building a Victory during my (ship) modelling career.  Just let me know where to send the cheque

 

Once again - thanks!!

 

Geoff

[chris watton]

Cheers

 

I have since slightly altered the lanterns, as I realised that the aft panel (the one facing the poop) has no light frames, but is a door to light/extinguish the light. At the moment, they are simple concentric, but I shall see if I can change them further.

 

One thing I haven't shared - until now - is the way I designed the anchors. Some will hate me, but they are all laser cut, and no cast metal parts for the main part. I decided to go this way because of two reasons, the first is the sheer size and weight, and I can only imagine the shrinkage that would occur. The second reason is that it is simply much easier to apply a small dab of glue to the palm of the anchor and secure it to their respective palm block without worrying about the weight.

 

Sorry.....

[Kevin]

Cheers

 

I have since slightly altered the lanterns, as I realised that the aft panel (the one facing the poop) has no light frames, but is a door to light/extinguish the light. At the moment, they are simple concentric, but I shall see if I can change them further.

 

One thing I haven't shared - until now - is the way I designed the anchors. Some will hate me, but they are all laser cut, and no cast metal parts for the main part. I decided to go this way because of two reasons, the first is the sheer size and weight, and I can only imagine the shrinkage that would occur. The second reason is that it is simply much easier to apply a small dab of glue to the palm of the anchor and secure it to their respective palm block without worrying about the weight.

 

Sorry.....

why sorry

 

But i did read in the  Keith Jullier (i think) book that the lack of weight on the anchor, made it more difficult to look as if it belonged in the final stowed position

[ocean clipper]

Thank you

 

The length of the hull, from stern to figurehead is 1066mm.

 

With the bowsprit and mizzen boom, it increases to 1582mm, or there about.

 

After working on it for so long, it doesn't look that big anymore.....

wow caldercrafts victory is 1385 yours is  longer got to admit i like the look of yours better to,but i building caldercraft and i will not be doing a second victory,if yours had been around first that the one i would have gone for    DEREK

[chris watton]

why sorry

 

But i did read in the  Keith Jullier (i think) book that the lack of weight on the anchor, made it more difficult to look as if it belonged in the final stowed position

True, perhaps. however, Victory has all 4 of her main anchors resting in slots in palm blocks - in this instance I think it's better if they're glued into position as they all rest in a particular position dictated by the slotted blocks (at least, from my point of view)

[chris watton]

wow caldercrafts victory is 1385 yours is  longer got to admit i like the look of yours better to,but i building caldercraft and i will not be doing a second victory,if yours had been around first that the one i would have gone for    DEREK

Thank you, Derek - I have been following your blog of your fine Victory.

 

I think the main difference is that most kits are all about the end result, whereas I want not only a good end result, but having most of the fun actually building the kit - at least, I hope so, as it's taken me twice as long as any other kit I have done....

[Kevin]

a slight change of subject

 

i have just been looking through the Longbridge book wrt the after davits (yes them again) what are the notches for on the extending arms

 

also just noticed that they move up and down on a pin/hinge

Edited August 9, 2013 by Kevin

[chris watton]

a slight change of subject

 

i have just been looking through the Longbridge book wrt the after davits (yes them again) what are the notches for on the extending arms

Do you mean the quarter davits? If yes, I am assuming they're to aid the men walking up them?