Difference between editions of David Steel's books on rigging etc

[tkay11]

I am interested in buying one of Steel's books on rigging.

 

I note there are two main current available titles.

 

One is David Steel's "ELEMENTS OF MASTMAKING, SAILMAKING AND RIGGING" edited by Claude S. Gill which is the 1794 edition with five very large pocketed plates, published by Goodchild in a single volume which I can get for about £26.

 

The other is a 4-volume set published by Cambridge Library Collection which has the overall title "The Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics" and states it is the 1800 edition. I am mainly interested in volumes 1 and 3 of this set (Making masts, Art of rigging), and the price of these two combined would be just a little more at £35.

 

My question is whether one of these publications is better than the other in terms of size, readability etc. It seems that the Goodchild edition is not facsimile but re-set in modern type, but I am not sure about the Cambridge edition and would welcome any comments from members who have seen either or both of these editions.

 

Alternatively, should anyone think there is a better guide to 18th Century rigging and its dimensions I would be glad of any guidance!

 

Thanks

 

Tony

Edited February 8, 2015 by tkay11

[mtaylor]

The 1794 edition is available here:  http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/

[tkay11]

Thanks, Mark. I have already seen that site, and, having read through it, could only find references to lengths and quantities of the main ropes under 'Rigging Vol I' and 'Progressive method of rigging ships'. I therefore assumed that the version on the web is some kind of cut-down version even though it says it is complete, and that more tables might be in the original. But if that is all there is to it I would hope that the 'Elements of Mastmaking, Sailmaking and Rigging' might provide more detailed information about the structure, diameter and finishing of each of the main ropes on different types of ship of the 18th Century.

 

I hope I haven't missed something obvious on the web edition!

 

Tony

[mtaylor]

Tony,

 

They say it's complete as is and I would take them at their word. As for what you're looking for... I'm not sure where to go...  Maybe Lee's?

[roach101761]

Tony

 

The Nautical Research Journal published an article entitled  "Steel Examined" by Loyd M. Maloney.   It appears in Vol. 52, No.4 Winter 2007  pgs 213-220. Mr. Maloney discusses the various editions of Steel and in particular the Claude S. Gill  1932  edition of the the 1794 Steel.  The cold hard truth revealed by Mr. Maloney is the the Gill Reprint is far from an authentic reproduction of the 1794 Steel and in fact contains material from 1794 ed. and the 1806 ed.  He also states that there is much missing information and describes Gill's work as the Readers Digest version of Steel.  In order to make his conclusions he located a two volume set by Sim Comfort and verified it was an actual reprint of the 1794 Steel.  The article is full of information on the history of Steel and the various editions over time and various reprints of the information in various books.  If you are ready to invest your money in Steel read the article.   Hold out for an edition that is a true copy.  

 

Phil Roach

[mtaylor]

Phil,

 

So is the one on the HNSA site one of the "real" versions ?  They claim it's provenance and include Sim Comfort in their opening statement.

[tkay11]

Thanks, Phil. That is very helpful indeed. Unfortunately the NRG website does not seem to have the article in question -- the CD sets go only as far as Volume 50, and a search on Maloney and also on "Steel Examined" failed to produce any results. However, what you have said is sufficient to put me off the Gill edition. Sim Comfort's edition is £400, so well out of my range.

 

I rang the Cambridge University Press this morning and spoke to the editor of the series. She told me that the 4 volume set is a facsimile of the 1800 edition held in the university library, without any additions or commentary.

 

You can see the 4 volumes at

 

Volume 1. The Art of Making Masts, Yards, Gaffs, Booms, Blocks, and Oars £15.99

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/history/military-history/elements-and-practice-rigging-seamanship-and-naval-tactics-volume-1

 

The Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics £17.99

Volume 2. The Art of Sail-Making

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/history/military-history/elements-and-practice-rigging-seamanship-and-naval-tactics-volume-2

 

The Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics £18.99

Volume 3. The Art of Rigging

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/history/military-history/elements-and-practice-rigging-seamanship-and-naval-tactics-volume-3

 

The Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics £27.99

Volume 4 , Theory and Practice of Seamanship and Naval Tactics

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/history/military-history/elements-and-practice-rigging-seamanship-and-naval-tactics-volume-4?format=PB

 

They sell the combined 4 volumes for £77. These titles are pring on demand, and take 3 days to print out. They are available through booksellers, Amazon and direct from their press.

 

I have ordered the first three volumes and will post a review once I have them.

 

Thanks again both Mark and Phil for helping out!

 

Tony

[jbshan]

I guarantee that the plates for the Naval Architecture are 16 X 46 inches.  My copy has an inscription inside the front cover dated 1812.  The plates are exquisite copperplate on very heavy stock.

I know it isn't the volume in question, but I offer the information to perhaps give some idea of what layout the original may have.

Here is a scan of a portion of one of the plates.

 

Edited February 9, 2015 by jbshan

[tkay11]

That really is impressive and beautiful. Thanks very much, Joel, for sharing this.

 

Tony

[roach101761]

Mark

 

I do not know if the version you cite is authentic.   After all the Gill edition says it is authentic. 

 

Phil

[roach101761]

Just looked up the Cambridge University press editions at Amazon and Abe Books.  All four volumes are reasonably priced.  Knowing that the Pound is at least twice the Dollar, it seems that Amazon has the best price for new copies.   Also found a print on demand, however it was not clear which edition was scaned. 

 

Phil Roach.

[druxey]

Gill is a cherry-picked version: there is much information that is not there, when compared to the 1794 Steel two-volume edition. However, is expense is a factor....

[SJSoane]

 

Here is another online version. It is clumsy to click on the main menu to move around, but everything seems to be there, including the scanned images of the pages listing all rigging for different ship sizes.

 

http://www.maritime.org/doc/steel/index.htm

 

Mark

[RichardG]

Thanks guys for the links to the online versions. Looking at the large plates showing the main mast construction, I see this cross-section:

 

 

I'm sorry - that is too scary. I can't imagine how you would ever do that. Thank goodness I can build a model without that level of detail.

 

Richard.

[tkay11]

That's a really good link, Mark (SJSoane). Thanks.

 

The editor at the Cambridge University Press told me all the 4 volumes are print on demand.

 

Tony

[tkay11]

Just as a follow up to this thread, I have now received the first three volumes of Steel's Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics in the Cambridge University re-print of the 1800 Edition held in their university library.

 

It seems to me that it is pretty much identical to the version printed by the San Francisco Maritime National Park Association at http://www.maritime.org/doc/steel/index.htm, as given by Mark (SJSoane) earlier -- with the exception of the 5 very large plates of the masts and spars which are easily accessible at the site.

 

I very much like this edition. At first I was a bit thrown by the 'long s' used. This very closely resembles an 'f', but is distinguishable by the fact that the cross bar on 'f' is only to one side on the long 's'. Once I had recognised this the reading became easy.

 

The main reason I like it is because it is very much preferable to reading on screen, and, in addition, because each order is freshly printed for each customer, I have a brand new book that is the size of an ordinary hand-held paperback -- albeit with the old typeface. The plates are a bit harder to see than in the original, but the attached photos should give you an idea of how it looks.

 

I thoroughly recommend these three volumes. I haven't ordered the 4th, so can't comment on that volume.

 

If you click on the pictures, you should see a larger version.

 

 

 

Tony

[roach101761]

How is the facsimile?  Is it clear?  I have bought a few print on demand books  where it has not been good.  Some times it looks like a copy of a copy and needless to say the illustrations are lost in black ink.    If its a good copy I think I am sold and will add them to my list to order. 

 

Phil

Edited February 26, 2015 by roach101761

[roach101761]

Forgot to ask?  How did the NRG article hold up in comparison to the books you now have in your hand.

 

Phil

[tkay11]

Phil, to my mind the facsimile is very clear, as in the photos I posted, and easy to read.

 

The NRG article didn't really discuss the 1800 edition in any detail, and the volumes I have are a straight facsimile of that 1800 edition -- bar the 5 plates I mentioned. As the San Francisco edition is also the 1800 one, the plates are easily obtainable from their web page. As stated in the NRG article, though, it is important to read every word of Steel, as he states quite that it is impossible to write a simple linear narrative. Thus in looking up the various aspects of bowsprit making and rigging I have had to look across two volumes in separate places.

 

I really appreciate the detail given by Steel, although my 1763 cutter will have differences from some of the dimensions he provides since he deals with ships current at the turn of the century.

 

Thanks again for all your help and advice about this.

 

Tony

[roach101761]

Thanks for the update on the Cambridge print on demand 1800 version of Steel.

 

Phil

[trippwj]

Here is an interesting item concerning the works by David Steel from Mariner's Mirror:

 

Decencière, P., 2009: Correspondence: Bourdé de Villehuet and Steel. The Mariner’s Mirror, 95, 221–223, doi:10.1080/00253359.2009.10657100. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00253359.2009.10657100(Accessed April 29, 2015).

 

In his note on ‘Hauling out the mizzen’, (Mariner’s Mirror 94 (2008), 321) John Harland expresses his surprise to find Steel describing at such a late date as 1795 a practice the author considers to have been ‘obsolete well before 1800’.

 

This point can easily been answered: Steel was not the actual author of his Seamanship in Theory and Practice, as this book is a mere compilation that had already been edited as the second part of his earlier Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship (1794). In the foreword to this second part, Steel clearly acknowledges that he had freely used Bourdé’s Le Manoeuvrier: ‘To have passed over a work of such character would have been highly blame able’, (p 243). In fact, Steel took no chance to be blamed, as most of the ‘seamanship’ part of his book (if not all) comes from the French author, rearranged under a different order.

 

The quotations of Steel gathered by John Harland are mere word-for-word translations of what can found on pages 85, 87, 88 and 89 of Le Manoeuvrier. This explains why the same statements are to be found in Steel’s Seamanship in Theory and Practice, and later, in Seamanship published in 1824 in New York by Blunt, who cribbed Steel in his turn.

 

Bourdé’s Le Manoeuvrier is available at:

Villehuet, J. B. de, 1769: Le manoeuvrier. 468 pp. https://books.google.com/books?id=C_mSSuhA7uwC.

 

A link to the 1813 Blunt (have not located the 1824 version referenced above) may be found at

Blunt, E. M., 1813: Seamanship, both in theory and practice: to which is annexed, an essay on naval tactics and signals : also, regulations for the government of the Navy of the United States of America ... : including also, forms of general and particular orders for the better government and discipline of armed ships ... : with a system of naval discipline, and the acts concerning letters of marque, reprisals, their officers and men : with a cartel for usage and exchange of prisoners ... E.M. Blunt, 310 pp. https://books.google.com/books?id=cPpOAAAAYAAJ.

 

Steel's "Seamanship" is available here (oops - pasted the wrong citation originally!):

Steel, D., 1795: Seamanship, Both in Theory and Practice. Printed and published for, and at, Steel’s Navigation-Warehouse, Tower-Hill, 246 pp. docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/rarebooks_1600-1800/VK541S81795.PDF.

Edited April 29, 2015 by trippwj

[peterbrowne]

Highly recommend the four volume set The Elements and Practice of Rigging, Seamanship, and Naval Tactics by David Steel. 

 

Published by Cambridge University Press and available at https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/history/military-history/elements-and-practice-rigging-seamanship-and-naval-tactics?format=WX

 

 

[trippwj]

For those with an interest in the 1794 version reprinted in the original size, DN Goodchild offers the following:

 

Hardcover Elephant Folio

STEEL'S ELEMENTS OF MASTMAKING, SAILMAKING AND RIGGING
edited by Claude S. Gill
A reprint of the 1794 edition with five very large pocketed plates. An essential reference to the ship modeler and all who love early square rig. Every conceivable aspect of rigging and sails is covered here, including a number of tables for the dimensions of the standing and running rigging. There is also an excellent section with very fine engravings of all known types of sailing vessels at the time; including many that are rare indeed, and many from Asia and the Pacific. Those of you who read and treasure Patrick O'Brien will find this work a ready reference for rig and ship types. First published in 1794.
Publisher's Note: Our reprint restores the Elephant Folio (11" X 17") sizing of the original volume which was reduced in the 1932 reprint which has been out of print for some years.

Arranged, with an introduction by Claude S. Gill, 300 pages, $65.00

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by trippwj

[peterbrowne]

17 hours ago, trippwj said:

For those with an interest in the 1794 version reprinted in the original size, DN Goodchild offers the following:

 

Hardcover Elephant Folio

STEEL'S ELEMENTS OF MASTMAKING, SAILMAKING AND RIGGING
edited by Claude S. Gill
A reprint of the 1794 edition with five very large pocketed plates. An essential reference to the ship modeler and all who love early square rig. Every conceivable aspect of rigging and sails is covered here, including a number of tables for the dimensions of the standing and running rigging. There is also an excellent section with very fine engravings of all known types of sailing vessels at the time; including many that are rare indeed, and many from Asia and the Pacific. Those of you who read and treasure Patrick O'Brien will find this work a ready reference for rig and ship types. First published in 1794.
Publisher's Note: Our reprint restores the Elephant Folio (11" X 17") sizing of the original volume which was reduced in the 1932 reprint which has been out of print for some years.

Arranged, with an introduction by Claude S. Gill, 300 pages, $65.00

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://shellbackslibrary.dngoodchild.com/index.php?rt=product/product&product_id=1405