thibaultron

Going from the 2D drawing to a 3D drawing. This will be in at least 2 parts, as I have too many drawings to fitt in one post. Above is the drawing I’m going to start from. I have developed the frames on the upper right to individual frames, on another layer, as part of this drawing. Here is the layer with the frames. I have selected them all, and am making them a group, using the menu selection shown. Making them a group makes them basically one thing/entity. The CAD program will act on all of the grouped lines as a single thing, not separate lines. I’ve now gone to the 3D mode, by selecting the 3D button in the menu system. Note that the lines are still in the proper relationship, as shown in the upper left window. The lines look skewed in the main window, because we are looking down and a little to the side. Note the 3D viewing angle settings in the lower right bottom main menu. If all the settings are at zero, the drawing is displayed as if it was a 2D drawing. You have to crank in some values so that you can see the 3D view. The baselines, fore and aft parallels, and the station lines have been drawn, along the XY plain (Z=0). The red lines are the baseline, and parallels. The green lines are the waterline, and station lines. These are actually the ones from the 2D drawing, I’ve just turned on those layers. All the 2D lines you drew will be displayed on the XY plain in 3D. Placing different sections of the drawing on different layers allows you to hide those layers when working on another section. For example the station lines and baselines are on different layers. I hid them when I was working on the spars, to cut down on the clutter on the screen. Once again you can see that they are not skewed in the Top, Side, and Front views. In this picture I’ve turned on the layer with the completed frames. The curve lines are the deck, with the camber. Here the frames are all selected, and made a group. I have also made the baseline, etc. a separate group. I cleared the selection, and reselected the frame group, at one of the intersections of the baselines. The selected point is the solid dot. The square boxes are the individual line end points. There is an option in the “Options” menu “Point Select Mode” that turns this on and off, if you don’t want it. I forgot to save the screen when I was rotating the frames, so the above drawing is the main one. I selected some lines, and am getting ready to rotated them. This picture is to show how to get to the rotate command. When you select rotate this new menu window pops up. We want to rotate the frames to be perpendicular to the baseline, so select rotate around Y axis, enter 90 deg. For the rotation angle, and deselect the “Drag Mode” option. Now when you move your cursor away from the box, it will be displayed as a curved line and arrow symbol. Move the symbol to the main windows, and click. I could not get the screen capture to show this symbol. The frames have been rotated, and the frame group is being broken, so that we can work on the individual frames.

Nice looking boat and kit. Looking forward to your build. Is there any history on the boat? Country, year, use? Are the instructions in Russian, English, both, or other?

I posted the drawings in a previous post, refer back to them for this post. I draw the keel and/or fore and aft baseline in the XY, marking the station lines along this line going from the baseline up in the Y direction. Then I paste in the frames/hull stations, which will be shown laid out in the XY (facing you). I rotate each frame around the Y axis, so that it is now in the XZ plane, perpendicular to the keel/baseline. Then move each frame to its corasponding location. I'll post a step by step tomarrow, its 10:20 PM now.

In DesignCAD You can try Control-Shift-R. This will refresh all the screens, not just the one you are on. Or Control -Shift-W, this will resize the drawing in all the windows to fit the entire drawing in them. If you lost one of the 3D window panes, the menu option "Windows", "DesignCAD Tile Settings", "Restore DesignCAD Tile" will restore the screen to the 4 windows of the standard 3D setup.

In an earlier post someone mentioned that their CA was not bonding parts. I had this problem with a bottle of CA. It would go on the surface, but when you pressed the parts together, nothing, even though the glue was "wet" when the parts were pressed together, and "dry when I released the parts.. I bought another bottle and it worked fine. There was something wrong with that first bottle. In 25 years of using CA, this was the first time it had failed to bond. I have never had the CA let go of a glued model, but I have found it to become brittle after time, and fail after a hit on the model sometimes. This was on RC ships that take a beating, and have less ribs than would be typical of a regular RC hull.

The key for us is the use of the word "spline", and the picture of the draftsman using a batten to find or draw the lines. In CAD most programs can draw a curved line along a series of points that don't fall along a straight line. You could use this to draw an osilating line as in the video. This does all that math for you. In DesignCAD they are drawn using the "Draw Lines Curved" command. In AutoCAD "Draw Spline". DesignCAD also has a curve, called a "Bezier curve, but that involves tangents, and I have never used it. This is the type of line I use to trace a sheer, or a frame line. In DesignCAD you can even specify a file with a list of points along the curve, and it will draw the curved line for you. If you have an offset table, these points can be generated from the table. The kicker is that the points in the file must start at one end, and finish at the other. This means determining the flow of the points in the offset table. I generally use a spreadsheet, to manipulate the offset points, into an end to end flow.

THe dedge winch drawing in an earlier post, is also a cleaned up 2D projection.

The 3D hull in the above drawing, is not solid, I used surfaces between the frames to give the look of solid, so I could see what she looked like. DesignCAD does not extrude a solid thing. It just make tall 2D walls, with no top or bottom surface, so I can't for example extrude a keel outline to 1/8" thick, and then operate on it like it was a regular 3D thing. The solid drawing shapes like a box or cylinder work just fine with solid add, subtract, and the other operators, but not extruded objects. That is the point I am at now with my new drawing of the boat above. I have to relearn AutoCAD (which I have an old copy of), in order to extrude a solid keel and frames. Then I'll import them into DesignCAD to continue. Why not just use the AutoCAD? It's an old copy, and I expect every new version of Windows to not run it, so far they have, but I'm familiar with DesignCAD, and can afford to upgrade it now and then, I'll never be able to afford a new copy of AutoCAD. DesignCAD is almost as good, just not in the Extrude operation. To illustrate this I have two drawings. The first is a random 2D polygon I generated, then extruded, with a box I made using the Solids menu. The box is of course, on the left, the polygon on the right. The second drawing is the above with using the "Hidden Line Removal" command. The box came out correct, but not the extruded shape. I can save a 2D projection, and remove the extra lines, and have, but I can't just do it automatically. Here are examples of that: The 3D drawing with hidden lines removed. The inner bands are 3D solids – Tubes, the outer band is an extruded shape, notice that the walls of the inner bands were not hidden, as the extrusion has no top surface. The end piece is generated from adding and subtracting solids, and also came out correct. This is the 2D projection drawing, as it was generated. Here it is after I cleaned it up by hand.

After generating the hull lines, I go to 3D mode, draw out the base line, waterline, whatever you are using to determine the fore aft positions of the hull lines in the X direction. Then I rotated the hull lines 90 deg. so they run in the XZ rather than XY direction. Each "frame' is then positioned at its repective place on the reference line. you now have the 3D model of your hull. The following pictures are screen captures of "The Maryland Terrapin Smack 1886" that I drew: This is the station lines, keel, and deck center line laid out in the X axis. In this I've loaded in the frames, rotated them into the XZ plane, and have move some of them onto their locations. Note that this boat has a flat bottom and slab sides, but a regular curved hull is done the same way. Here the frames and transom are all in place, and I have used a curve line with defining points set at each frame to define the Chine and Shear. Much further down the line, I have added surfaces, deck furniture, etc. These are all half hulls, but all it takes then is to duplicate and mirror the finished side, then stick them together. These drawings were made from a scanned page in a book. I've since purchased the full sized plans, and started over to make a more accurately scaled drawing. I'm just starting the 3D drawings for this. There are many other layers of details that are not shown. At this time I am concentrating on Chesapeake Bay boats, for scratch building future models. In the pasted I've CADed 2D drawings of WWII era ships, for semi-scale 144th scale models (to scale, but lacking fine detailing).

Part 08 Next onto the bowsprit Here is the final drawing of the bowsprit, with the trailboard graphic in place. Note: My CAD program, DesignCAD has an “Auto Trace Bitmap” tool that will trace a scanned drawing, and create a CAD format drawing. This Trace function does not create a finished drawing, the lines are close but not accurate enough for real life. No available trace program does trace accurately enough for a finished drawing. However what I did was change the traced lines to a light gray, and I use them for drawings like this that detail a part or parts of the final drawing. It gives a much better contrast than the black lines on the scans I’m using to hand trace and make the final drawing. If yours has this same feature, or you have a standalone Tracing program, you might want to do something similar on your drawings. To contrast with the gray line drawing, here is one using the scanned drawing as a background. And here is a sample of the best trace I get, as you can see it is not even close enough for a final drawing. The green lines are the generated trace. I decided to make two bowsprits, a large one (2X) for practice, and a scale one. This will detail the initial work on the large one, as I have to start over (details below). I’m starting from dowels for the material, going to square, sanding the octagonal section, then the round. I started out by gluing a piece of rectangular stock to the small blank, to make it easier to handle. Then using a friends large oscillating belt sander I sanded one side of the dowels flat. This sander is Nice! It has the belt running horizontally to the table, and in addtion the belt moves up and down verticaly so that you are not just wearing out/clogging, one section of the belt. Then using this flat side down on the table,as a reference, I sanded either side flat and square to the first side. I left one side round, as I need to sand all four sides on the completed bowsprit, so I’ll sand this side while shaping the piece. I squared the sanding surface to the table uing a 3” machinist square as a guide. Here is where I made my mistake. I decided to sand the top and bottom curved profiles first. After doing this I then found that the piece rocked too much to do the side taper. One smart thing I did was leave the blank overlong on the base side, for a handle. I found another problem while sanding the large blank. The shield on my disk sander extends a little past the disk surface. This interferes with getting into inside corners, like where the square section at the base meets the handle. I used to use the belt portion of the sander for these areas, but at the moment, I don’t have a belt. I’m going to remove the sheild and grind away a portion to solve this problem. Above is a picture of the sanded large blank, along with the smaller blank, still glued to the rectangular stock. The downward curve of the bowsprit is shown in the photo above. I have to make a new large blank, and resand it. I’ll pick up there next time.

A little pricer than when I got mine 15 years ago $160. Here's a link: http://www.harborfreight.com/500-lb-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-60730-10041.html Range 8 1/8" to 27 1/2". Overkill, maybe, but at 500# capacity, it should lift anything we build.

This may not work for you, but here is what I did for a large 1/8th scale ride behind locomotive I have. I bought a hydrolic lift table from Harbor Freight, for about $100. I just raised and lowered the table as needed. You could attach a table to it, with legs that go through the table. Have holes in the legs, that you can slip a rod into, to lock the table at various heights. Use the lift table to change heights, and roll it out of the way when working. The handle of the cart would get in the way of working on the model, unless you can modify it somehow, or have it turned to the side..

Frank; Thank you for the compliment! I have been working on actual construction of the bowsprit, and will post what I've done soon.

I've used DesignCAD since the early 90s, both 2D and 3D. I'm using Ver 24 right now. In the recent past I've used V15 & v20. The general commands for all these later versions are about the same. I went from v20 to v24, because I was running into low memory problems with the older versions. I've run v24 on both Windows Vista and Windows 7. If your system ran 8.1, it should have more than adequate memory for v23. What anti-virus are you using on 8.1? I have had great luck with the free version of AVG anti-virus. Have you been running the Windows Update, or have it set for automatic updates? If you can not get on the interne, you may have to reinstall the 8.1, and then run all the updates. Keep running them, letting them install, probably rebooting, then run it again. It may take several times until all of them install, as some have to be installed before a later update can load. I update AVG daily and run the Windows Update, and run a virus scan with AVG, at least once a week, and have not had any virus problem damage my computer. I have gotten a few viruses, but they have been caught. If you can get on the Web to at least get the MS updates, do so. They are offering Win 10 for free to users with Win 7, Win 8, or Win 8.1, starting at the end of the month. If you run the updates, they will automatically ask you if you want the upgrade. I'd be happy to help you. Here are a couple of recent 3D drawings I've done. The first is the Maryland Terrapin Smack from a Chappelle drawing in a book. I'm now redrawing it from the large plans I got from the Smithsonian. The second is a hand powered oyster dredge winch for a Chesapeake Bay Skipjack, I'm building.

3D does take getting used to. Mostly you have to get used to setting points rather than using the mouse as much as with 2D.

Part 07 After a delay due to a series of family medical problems, and work on the 8 X 8 extension for my shop, I have gotten a little work done for the model. I worked on plans for the hand powered dredge winches. I found some pictures of such winches on the internet, and a drawing from an 1800s government publication. This photo shows the winches in use. Note that this does not look like a skipjack, as their dredge equipment was amidships, but may be one of the single masted sloops used prior to the development of the skipjacks in the 1890s. These crank/drum axles look to be about waist height. A small photo unfortunately. Photo from a Chesapeake Bay museum, unfortunately this is also a small photo. This is the main photo that my design is based on. Drawing showing Oyster Pirates at work, during the night. Note that it looks like the winches have a gear reduction unit used (the offset box and crank handle). The crank handle axle is shown a little below waist height here, but the handles on either side are different lengths. Also note the opening in the top of the water barrel. The winches should also be aft of the rollers, not forward as shown in the etching. Drawing from a government treatise on the US fishing industry, published in the 1880s. As detailed below, I think this is for use where the crew are standing in a deck well. The dredge bucket is proportionally much narrower than all the other drawings and photos I’ve found. I chose to used the two photos as a basis for my model, with some details from the drawings as a help. Firstly the “The Oyster Industry” drawing looks odd, as the crank handle seems overly long for cranking, and the handle would be quite close to the deck, if the operator was standing. I found that some early skipjacks had a well the crew stood in while dredging. This winch looks like it might be one of these. Its shorter stature, compared to crank length, might be right for a person standing below deck level. On a side note: I have a Midwest Skipjack kit that has this well arrangement. I’ll keep this in mind for that model. The Midwest kit is a model of the type used by “Oyster Pirates” that dredged illegally in the tonguing beds at night. I found a drawing of the “Messenger” in one of Chappell’s books of this type that matches the Midwest kit, almost exactly. One interesting difference between the rollers used on the “Messenger” and the Midwest kit is that they are narrow, compared to all the other skipjack info I have found. Similar to the one shown in the government fishibg industries report drawing. Drawing of the Midwest kit (red lines) superimposed on a drawing of the “Messenger”. The other drawing is of Oyster Pirates dredging. I don’t expect that the artist was going for great accuracy, but I do note that there seems to be a gear reduction used on the cranks. This is what I think the off center box is. The photo of just the winch and dredge bucket from the Chesapeake museum shows “something” in a similar position, so I’m going to assume that is what it is. I wish this photo was more detailed, but you can’t win them all. The only real indication of the size of the winches, is that the crank handle shaft seems to be about waist height in the photo of the men dredging, and the pirate drawing. Based on this I’m assuming a axle height of 36”. The drawing I made is based mostly on the one photo of the winch dredge combo at the museum. Using the 36” height I used my CAD program to come up with the following general dimensions to start with: Shaft Height: 36” Drum Diameter Outer: 12” Base Width: 24” Handle Offset: 16” Cross Brace Lower Height: 4.5”” Cross Brace Upper Height: 27” Base Length: 29” Base Leg Web Width: 2” Drum Length:16” Handle Length Extremes: 15” Bottom Rod Brace Height 4.5” Leg Pad Width: 3.5” Starting with this and after some fiddling, here is what I came up with: The offset cylinder on the right of the drum, is what I am going to use for the gear reduction. The long open area on the right hand part of the crank/drum axle, is for some type of pawl mechanism, that I will have to come up with, later. I will try to make it look somewhat like the one in the photo, with what looks to be a covered pawl, and the vertical hooked release handle shown. As the about 42” total height will make the model winch only about ¾” of an inch tall, I think I can get away will some generalizations. I really wish I could have found a clear higher resolution photo of one of these winches. While the one drawing is nice and clear, I don’t think I could scratch build that complicated pawl and possibly also gear reduction mechanism in 1/64th scale. Building this winch in 1/64th will be a challenge. The complex bracing of the legs will be a real challenge, in this small scale. The cranks and drum not too bad. There are a few options I am looking at. Photo-etched brass for the legs, with the flanges then bent up to complete the assembly. I could, with some investment, do this at home, but I don’t know if I would use up the chemicals on future models, before they went bad. Make the legs out of paper. I could print the designs and then cut them out. Again in this small size, I don’t think my skills are up to this fine a skill. I have trouble cutting the window mullions on my HO paper building kits. Maybe I could talk to one of the vinyl graphics places about this. I’ll check into this. Paper might also be a bit fragile when attached to the model (fat finger damage possible). Built everything from sheet plastic. Again cutting these small parts and getting both clean results and four matching parts for the two winches needed, will be tough. Go full throttle, and get a 3D printed model made. There are a few 3D printing houses that cater to modelers. This would be a little pricey, but probably no more than buying the materials needed for photo-etching. Learning one of the solid modeling programs would be interesting, and this might be handy for future modeling both for ships and model railroading. I could also have the others parts (crank handles, and drum) 3D printed at the same time. One problem might be printer resolution at this size. Laser cut parts. There is at least one person on this forum who offers this service. One problem with laser cutting is that 1/32nd or even 1/64th inch thick wood is way overly thick for the leg webs. Which would likely only be ½” thick maximum. ¼” thick is more likely. Even 1/64th might look bulky at this scale. I’m leaning toward the 3D printing, or laser cut parts, but it will be a while before I decide. Both these methods would be useful when I have to make bigger winches for the Midwest kit, and the scratch built “Carrie Price” in 1/32nd I plan for the future. That’s it for this installment. Next time work progresses on the bowsprit.

Planking is an option, but with this small a hull (about 8" long), I would have to sand a lot to account for even thin planks. I may look into a product used to treat dry rotted wood. I forget the name, but have used it in the past. It is a thin slow setting epoxy, that is designed to soak into the wood. Poly resin may be a little too thick for this application. Thank's for the suggestions!

I have a small scale Sterling kit (about 1/80th, rather than the large RC kit) of the Emma C Berry, that I got so I can display this 2 masted version with the MS 1/32nd single masted one. She was built with the single mast, and several years later, converted to a 2 masted schooner. She sailed in this configuration, until donated to the Mystic Seaport museum, who restored her back to the as build setup. My question is how to reinforce the soft balsa solid hull. I know that such hulls dent and crack easily, and want to add some type of "substance" to toughen the surface. I'm looking for something tougher than regular paint.

Would it be possible for you to post the CAD drawing? I could use one of these too!

Great workstation, and great CADing..

Thanks for this thread!

Nice build!

For anyone who may be following this thread. I have not given up on the thread. A series of family medical problems, and working to complete the addition to the shop have delayed construction on my model. I'm presently in the process of building the bowsprit, and will detail this in, hopefully, the near future.

It is a swivel blade. Sort of an Xacto on a shaft. They are used on vinyl cutters for example.

I found out that model railroading users of the Circuit have found that it will not consistantly cut 1/16" basswood. They have to sand their sheets a little thinner. The cutting edge on the "Deep Cutting" blade is 1/16" long, so if the wood is slightly thick, or does not lay completely flat on the cutting mat, the cutter will stall and stop. As far as lettering it will cut down to about 8 point type.