Jack12477

I continued on with the deck by mildly wetting the underside plywood carrier to counteract the warp from gluing and set in place in the hull and held in place with wedges under strips of wood inserted through the gunports and weighted down with steel blocks around the center opening and allowed to dry overnight. This process of using wedges and weights will also be used to glue down the deck when the time comes.
 

 
In the meantime while waiting for the deck to dry I fabricated the sea steps and in checking vintage photos versus plans. The plans show 11 while photo shows 10, and there are only two painted white that are in the gun stripe.
Here is the vintage photo. I will use this reference to do mine and I will also add the hand ropes along side of the steps.
 

 
Here are the sea steps ready to paint. I made a couple of extra just in case.

 
While drying over night one of the joints let go that I fixed with filler made from the sanding fluff I saved while sanding the deck.
 

 

 
Here the filler is applied and the key is to apply it across the planking joints for the best fill. Allow the first coat to dry and then apply a second. Once dry it was sanded to match the surrounding area.

 
Here the final trim cut in of the grate structure was done using a sharp blade carefully slid along the edge of the frame side to cut deck. Care must be used to cut the deck and not the frame; a very slight angle of the blade away from the frame helps.

 
Here the pre-stain has been applied and the deck put back in place to dry with the mast chaffing fish holding the deck down.

 
Now back to adding the steps while the conditioner drys. 
 

Once the center planking was set I was checking spar deck pictures of the real ship and noticed that there was a trim perimeter frame between the decking and planksheer. Fortunately the center decking section allowed the cutting in of the stern, and bow portions once the sides were added. The framing was added with the decking in place with the perimeter framing being held tightly against the planksheer and then very carefully tack glued without gluing the frame to the planksheer. Decking was then removed, the framing securely glued and the rest of the planking added.
 

 

 

 

 
Once the glue has set the planking will be sanded and the butt joints cut in with a sharp Xacto blade and black glue filled. Staining will then follow.

For the rivets I found only this photograph from the original boat
from http://cdn.silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Baby-Bootlegger-30-Bragg.jpg, the rows of rivets appear as dark points in the shadow

 
And one more from a model, made in Germany. Here are the rivets good to see, and the pattern seems to be close to the pattern from the photograph above. Pic comes from http://www.miniwerft.de/die-miniwerft/modelle-im-bau/

 
Regards
Gerhard
 
 
 
 

Hi everyone
 
As my admiral commanded me, I will have to build beneath my historic old ships another. more modern boat, a BabyBootlegger will be made then. The plans came from John Toms free for download, lots of infos are to find in the internet. I found one really good building report at rc.groups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1805606think I will try to stay close to this one. But not all that nails the builder used for his model, they were not there at the original boat, as photos from it show. I still have no clue what engine to use, maybe I make it electric at first, with an opinion for fuel drive later .
Here the plans again, 4 mm plywood is at home for the frames and keel works. under planking will be made with 3 mm Balsa wood, visible planking with 1 - 1,5 mm mahogany wood.
 


 
And one photo from the original, source was
http://cdn.silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Baby-Bootlegger-302.jpg

 
The model will be about 90 cm long and about 18cm wide.
 
Regards
Gerhard
 

It looks good, John.  I'd leave the photos.  I agree they may help others later.  Keep up the good work!

I quite agree with Brian, John. Leave the photos as they will help someone.
 
Looking pretty good.   How does it look from dead astern and dead foreward?   Down low I should add.
 
Spiling isn't a bad thing.  It can get a bit tedious but once you get into the rhythm, it flows well.  I had to spile just about every strake on my current build.  

The lining off certainly looks fine to me from the photo's, but ultimately it's your eyes on the hull that will be what makes the call, and it if 'looks' good, it probably is!
 
As for the photo's, no reason to remove them, as it's the process photo's like this that someone else can potentially learn a lot from later when they are looking at your log trying to figure this step out for themselves.  Storage space is pretty darned cheap and plentiful these days, so I certainly wouldn't be worried about the space they are taking up, as that is sort of the entire purpose of having everyone post build logs!

Thank you Brian & Mark,
 
I have lined out the hull again and am attaching a bunch of pictures to solicit critiques. After a couple of days I'll remove the pictures so that I'm not eating a lot of forum data storage with trash.
 
This scheme probably won't need dropped planks at the bow or steelers at the stern though admittedly it will take a bunch of spiles. Is that a bad thing? I plan to edge glue planks to achieve enough width to enable spilling.
 
I particularly like the somewhat flat angle that the planks are at approaching the stem.
 
Please comment - I'll delete all the pictures in a couple of days.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Respectfully,
John
 
 
 
 

Hmm... plank length..  Hull... closer to 32-36 foot depending....at the time of Revenge, there was still a lot of old, tall oaks in Blighty.  Decks.. 20-25...   But you can go with one full length strip instead of scale length.  Modeler's choice.

I used scale plank lengths, actually a bit short at 16' scale, but they worked out well for my hull size.  I think 20-25' is generally accepted as how long planks were generally used.
 
If you want to use full lengths though, and you are happy with how that looks, then that's all that really matters.  I purposely used different colors of walnut on my final planking to make the different planks stand out for the appearance, so it's all about personal taste I think.

Chuck,
 
I  agree 100% with Mark's comments above.

Chuck,
 
I  agree 100% with Mark's comments above.

Mobbsie, at what scale are you building this lovely Lancia Armata. With those dimensions she will be heavy. I know you are meaning mm and not meter. Just giving you a hard time.

Hi Gents,
Here we are again with a long overdue update, I know work on the boat has slowed for reasons I will give later but this is bordering stupid. I can only say I'm being bone idol.
 
Right, thanks to all for your comments and for hitting the like button, I do appreciate you looking in.
 
I apologize for the jumpy nature of the photos but this is mainly due to a lot of the jobs on the boat being small and don't appear to be note worthy, before you know it a lot has been achieved and not a lot recorded.
 
The deck is made from Swiss Pine and really is just a framework for the Gratings and Boards. The deck boards are of 8m x 2m Red Heart, I made a guide frame so that I could sand the outer edges of the boards down to 1mm, these then sat  flush inside the frame.
The Gratings are from the kit and not the best, they came up short and so a mish mash was fitted together, not great but acceptable.

 
The lower deck with completed boards and gratings, the anti slip bars are 2m x 2m Holly

 
The forward Bulkhead has now been planked but is still work in progress, the planks are 5m x 1m Walnut.

 
The second deck has been given the same treatment as the main deck and is dry fitted in position, the top deck has been planked using 5m x 1m Walnut planks.

 
The stern weather boards have been fitted and are made from 8m x 2m planks, these have been fixed to the 7m x 1m Walnut of the first planking. I have also started to fit the aft ribs which are 2m x 2m Lime strips, soaked then shaped.

 
All the decks have now been fixed, bulkheads planked and all ribs are in place. The Transom hatch has been made from a  Lime frame and Walnut boards. the aft stringers are seen ready to be fitted.

 
Here the aft stringers are being glued in.

 
The Port side stringers are completed and have been pinned using cut down flat head pins.

 
I do have more progress to report and show but that will be for another post, I promise it wont be as long this next time.
 
Hope you enjoy them guys.
 
Be Good
 
mobbsie
 
 
 
 

Chuck,
 
I'd say play to your strengths.  You design beautiful kits with a history. Instructions that are second to none. There's options on purchasing (that's a big plus) such that if the buyer wants better wood, they can get what they need from you and "good wood" from elsewhere.  This saves the buyer some cash on the kit.  Options on the fittings.   
 
You're already basically allowing your customers to "roll their own prices".  You have range of kits in work or available.  I take it that Winchelsea is next?
 
From what I see, you're doing right by your customers.

Group projects for entire ships or boats are problematic for all the reasons presented here.  Having said that, I built the longboat because it was a group build and put my other projects on hold during the building process.  I would not have done that if the anticipated build time was months or years, rather than weeks.  I like the idea of a group build of a specific part of a ship, whether this is a sail, capstan, wheel or stove.  I definitely would participate in a group for carving.

A group on an intro to carving would be great......that subject might be a little advanced and intimidating...but maybe say this.   As it is applicable to the carved work in bas relief that is common on many period ship transoms and trail boards.   
 

Hello Everyone,
I like the concept that Chuck is trying to get started in regards to group projects, be they small or large. One idea that I've been mulling over in my mind would be a group projected dedicated to carvings of Viking longboat prows. I've come across many pictures on the internet and it has stirred my imagination into incorporating it as a side project. Now the prow can be as large as one would want to tackle it. One must ensure that they do show updates and what carving techniques they are using. While at a larger scale, it will give people the opportunity to start practicing their carving techniques in the event they may want to try their hands at a carved ship's figurehead.
Attached are a few photos of what I am talking about in the event it stirs curiosity in fellow ship builders.
 
 

Well right now I am just trying to muster up enough interest in any subject.  Doesnt seem to be going well.  Plus Dave and others are missing the point with the fitting group projects.  It doesnt matter that there are instances where a capstan is made in a build log.  There is no duplication.......
 
The idea is that a group of folks may want to try and build a typical capstan correctly and choose the same subject plan/or primary source. Then build it TOGETHER while sharing ideas for how best to accomplish the task.  For example...see the wonderful model below.
 
 
With your line of thinking ....which I think is flawed,  one can say that there are currently so many Hahn scratch build logs underway that there is no good reason to start a group for one.  It would be a duplication of effort and redundant.  There has been so much written about his method....and tried before,  that it would not be worthy of a group.    But ......because you folks missed the whole point about ..."group"  and "together"   "building the same subject"  "from the same plans together"   .....I think a Hahn group would be a good idea and so would any project as a group who wanted to try and build any subject as a study and exercise in technique or for any other reason.  This includes any current kit on the market.   It doesnt have to be a special project designed new...or by a commercial entity specifically for the purpose of using it in a group.....
 
It can be a group build entirely from scratch.....buy a copy of any plan available....OR you can collectively choose to start a group building teh M.Shipways kit for the Armed Virginia Sloop....It doesnt matter how over done it is...as long as members of the group will get something out of it....learn together and progress there hobby adventure.  A group of brand new model builders getting together to build a simple kit as a group will absolutely be of benefit to them in the long run.  It is easier to "learn" as group than on your own....sometimes....and for specific people who prefer additional input and support.
 
 
A group project for making sails is an EXCELLENT idea....a plan of any sail can found easily enough....that same plan can be used by many folks to make a sail....imagine,
 
some trying different materials.....others trying different techniques.  All to produce the same sail.  It would be so valuable to have that data in one place for everyone after the group has completed.  Excellent suggestion.   But someone has to take the lead and get it organized.....find that plan and find 6-8 people ready to get started.  That would be an invaluable resource to have for everyone.   AND it wont be a project that takes years to complete....and you can participate while still working on any current projects.  Frank gets it.....that is whole point of a group learning experience.

My intention was not to be 'huffy', it was to point out the exact same thing you did about the vegetable farming.  You can't have everything, you need to consider all the factors going into the product, and that it's kind of unreasonable to say "I want this awesome thing made out of the best possible components which are all expensive, but I want it to cost a dollar".
 
Sure, we all might *want* it, but that doesn't mean that it's reasonable to ask for it.
 
I don't need to really understand the industry to go to Crown and look at the cost of a wood package, then see what a set of plans costs somewhere, what do various bits of fittings, ropes, etc. cost, and add it all up to get at least a vague idea of the materials costs that would go into a given project, then consider that any business has development costs (in time and materials both), and that they need to make a profit of some kind.
 
Hopefully nobody takes my earlier post (or this one) personally, as neither was intended that way at all.

I feel compelled to make a comment from the manufacturer's side. Our CSS Alabama kit took about 1,400 hours to develop. That's a BIG chunk of payroll money. Even a "simple" kit like our Revenue Cutter is hundreds of hours of development.
 
As to deciding which ships to model, I made a survey back in April of 2014 that reached 3,000 people, and I got back 60 or 70 responses. That is BlueJacket's general guide for kit development for the next several years to come.
 
Without being too commercial, we already offer some kits that were suggested in this thread. We also have a toll-free help line for our kits. We take our reputation very seriously.

John,
 
The battens and the thread looked pretty good from the pictures.  Look everything over from one end, and then the other end until you're pleased with the plank run.   You'll be tapering the planks so use the tick strip method between the battens/string to get the plankwidths at each bulkhead.  In other words, if it's say 5 full size planks at the midship line (largest area/bulkhead), then as you move for and aft you'll see that those 5 plank will probably narrow.  Since this is a kit and spiling may not be possible with the planking materials, drop planks and stealers will work.  
 
Have look here:  http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php   The Chuck tutorials do explain the tick strips pretty well.

Funny thing about this topic... everyone has their idea of which ship or type of ships.  Yet when one looks at the kit builds there's a big gap.  There's the Vic's and Connie's en masse.  The odd balls, the work ships, the little known... not so much.  Even the scratch area although they are all over the map there's still some in the "majority".   The ideal model also seems to be divided by continent or country even...  
 
One thing I have noticed is that there is a big aftermarket for parts like what Chuck is bringing out.  I'm doing a scratchbuild and yes, I'll be using some aftermarket stuff because I don't have the tooling, inclination, nor the expertise to design and build some parts.  
 
Maybe the ala carte method is a good one.  It's like buying a basic car and the adding options.  The problem is the picking of the basic car or ship in this case.
 
I guess I'm saying, I'd sure hate to be a kit designer and try to figure out the market.  :

Sorry to join the conversation late.  This is a really great topic of conversation Chuck, thanks for raising it and giving the customer some input on possible future product launches.
 
I think for first time kit buyers, the market is pretty well saturated with good beginner kits where the beginner probably cares less about historical accuracy and bashing, but is just looking to get their feet wet and build something out of the box.  What is probably most important is for there to be good instructions.  When I was getting started in the hobby, I was looking for a beginner kit with very detailed instructions.  There weren't too many of those out there at the time surprisingly, but I think that's been changing.  I ended up going with the Caldercraft Badger because it had a 65-page instruction manual that was close to what you've done with the practicums.
 
When it came time for my second kit, I was looking for a step up in difficulty, something interesting and historically accurate, and with good quality components.  At the same time I wanted to bash the kits to improve on them, so I purchased "used" kits since I knew I would be replacing most of the wood anyway.  With a kit under my belt, limited instructions were fine with me.  Here's been my experience with some of the kits I bought since the Badger:
 
-- Amati Pegasus:  I bought the kit because of the ship's beautiful lines and decorations, the availability of TFFM and plans from the NMM, and because the kit components were of very high quality.  The kit in my opinion is A+++ all around.  If you like the subject matter, Amati has hit the ball out of the park with this kit.  My only quibble is that the walnut planking and walnut laminated sheets had such variation in color that I couldn't use it since I wanted natural finishes on the model.
 
-- MS Charles Morgan:  I wanted something different besides the typical 18th century British warship.  Great plans, lots of information out there, and you can see the actual ship in person.  I'd knock the kit down slightly because the keel and bulkheads are in basswood rather than something stronger like MDF (Pegasus) or plywood, but otherwise I'm very happy with the kit.
 
-- Corel Unicorn:  A kit with a lot of promise with available plans from the Chapman Architectura book and the NMM (for its sister ship, the Lyme) that unfortunately frustrated me to the point of dropping the build.  Keel was warped.  The plans didn't match up with each other or with the parts in many instances.  You can certainly build a nice model from the kit, but as you can see from the various logs on here, Corel took a few liberties and the ship is not accurate in many respects.  Once I started comparing the ship with the plans, etc., it was going to be too much work to modify things and so I decided I will build a Lyme class ship from scratch in the future.
 
Lots of good suggestions from others above.  If I had to come up with my ideal kit, and if you're looking to target the more experienced modeler, I would look to these principles:
 
1.  Good quality frame, plans and detail pieces - MDF or plywood keel and bulkheads, with plans that match one another and the parts.  Either include good detail pieces or don't bother including them.  Warped keels and bad plans are really unacceptable in my opinion, but they seem to be pretty commonplace.  
 
2.  Interesting subject - There are lots of good 18th century British warships out there.  After rigging cannons with 2mm blocks, I was very interested in the Charles Morgan for a next build!  No cannons, but lots of interesting deck details like the try works, etc.  For subjects, maybe another whaler like the ill-fated Essex?  A fishing or other kind of working or merchant vessel?  Dutch or french ships (I bought the two Euromodel kits in my signature because they were relatively unique offerings in this respect).  Something with history, decorations, cool deck items and details?
 
3.  Additional source material - I think as people move onto second, third, etc. builds, the historical piece is almost as interesting as building the model.  Plans available from the NMM, or from books like the AOTS series, are great resources to help improve the kit.  I think the Pandora can fit this bucket quite nicely, and it also has an interesting history.
 
4.  Option to buy kit components a la carte - Not sure how feasible it is, but I think there would be a market of builders who would buy a kit from a manufacturer if they could buy, for example, the plans, keel and bulkheads, and decorative pieces.  Either offer upgraded wood packages or offer the kit without any wood.  For me personally, if I'm going to use pear, boxwood, etc., no way I'll buy a complete kit from the manufacturer as I'd rather just wait to buy one off eBay for a big discount and use the savings to buy the wood I want (I bet for some buyers too, the attraction of buying good quality detail pieces from you is a huge incentive to purchase certain kits).  Without this option, I think many people will buy from secondhand sources in lieu of buying retail, or they may scratch build what they want.
 
So I'm in if you decide to ever offer an Essex kit with the keel and bulkheads in MDF, great plans, and either without kit wood or the option to upgrade it, and detail pieces for sale on your website 
 
You asked about price and build time.  I think if you're looking to the intermediate/advanced set, then people get the price and build time factors.  Like I said above, I think on price, people might be more apt to buy a kit retail if there was more of an a la carte option.  Build time wise, I don't know if people care about finishing a model in a set period of time, unless they were doing it for a job or possibly they were elderly
 
Thanks!  Obviously these are idiosyncratic opinions.  Sorry for the long post!  

I feel for you Chuck and Dave, as I've noticed the same thing, and I have to think that these people are being completely unreasonable and not really thinking through what they are asking for.
 
I'm going to use Cheerful as a 'talking point', since it's my most recent purchase, and it's a great example, as I've put together the components very much like what they are asking for, yet it's a much smaller kit than what they are asking for.
 
Starter kit w/laser cut keel, bulkheads and stern frames.
All the mini-kits available.
Full timbering kit including pre-milled planking for the hull.
Guns and carriages.
 
All of that adds up to about $565 if you pay normal price, and does not include shipping.  Not included - more wood stock for the masting, all the rigging rope, fittings, stuff like anchors that kits normally include, and we are easily into the $650~$750 range depending on what all you add, and this is a 1/48 scale single masted cutter.  People that expect to get a 1/48 scale frigate kit using that quality of materials for under $500 are never going to get what they want.  It's simple math really.  If you want a 1/48 scale HMS Surprise that uses Boxwood or Pear instead of Lime & Walnut, and replaces bad generic fittings with high quality fittings, it is going to be $1000+ even from a large company.
 
What is really surprising to me is that people don't seem to consider the value of the purchase over the time spent building it.  The AVS took me 13 months, and probably 1200 hours to build.  So what if I spent $600+ on materials to complete it, that's pretty cheap 'entertainment', especially if you spread the 1200 hours out over a longer period of time like most people do.
 
Most plastic modelers (or at least the ones in my IPMS group) spend $50 per month easily on kits, and that's just the ones they actually build, not the ones that just get added to the stash.  At $600 per year, if you build a really nice frigate in 2 years, that's $1200.  Yea, it's all at once, but over time, it's the same as buying a $50 plastic tank model every month.  
 
You get what you pay for, and if you want a high quality model, you buy a high quality kit, which isn't going to be as cheap as a low quality kit of the same subject.