dafi

If I remember well Phil Reed also uses painted paper for coppering his models. Period Ship Modelmaking: An Illustrated Masterclass Modelling Sailing Men-Of-War: An Illustrated Step-By-Step Guide XXXDAn

great work! Cheers, Daniel

Phantasticoooooo!!! Wonderfully build with an extremly high skill level and still it breathes life :-) Thank you for sharing the ride! A true masterpiece, DAniel

What kind of ship, what year, what nation, what temperature of the water ... :-) XXXDAn,

There were three options for the cabins: wood, canvas on a wooden frame and pure canvas like a shower curtain. All three versions of course were taken down in case of clearing the decks, but this is well known from the captains and admiral room bulkheads, as seen too in MaC ;-) For the canvas I used washi paper for model planes, primed with clear varnish and put several thin layers of white and light rust paint (white paint with rusty stirring screws). Applied both sides of course. For the gunners cabin I opted for the semifixed cabin with canvas on a wooden frame, as he surely had some material and documents to be kept off the reach of curious hands. The other cabins probably will be the shower curtains, just lets see how this works in the model. Funnily the transparency turned out just like I wanted it too :-) Took the cardboard template out and fitted the wooden frame accordingly onto the canvas ... ... opened the door ... ... fixed the bit in place and the gunner might move in. For sure he still will bring some chests, his kit and some bedding stuff to satisfy his nesting instinct and to feel home and cosy :-) Also the first lieutenant has already his place fixed ... ... while those two little shipyard workers still discuss on how to proceed further ... Cheers, Daniel

And here comes another round of cardboard dummies with refined partitioning before I move on to produce the final ones. As the Vic was an admirals ship in 1805 there were a lot of extra personal on board. This made me opt for a forth cabin as shown on Royal Sovereign in 1807. ZAZ0083 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79874.html XXXDAn

And here comes another round of cardboard dummies with refined partitioning before I move on to produce the final ones. As the Vic was an admirals ship in 1805 there were a lot of extra personal on board. This made me opt for a forth cabin as shown on Royal Sovereign in 1807. ZAZ0083 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79874.html XXXDAn

I think one reason for the bad documentation is that that system was only needed about two dozen times in about 100 years - that is about the number of three deckers in the Royal Navy from 1750 on ... But one could also see a development in the display. It started perhaps as a mere longer chain to the upper deck to allow more people as seen in ZAZ0339 Royal Princess. It became more and more encapsulated for security sake but especially to become less messy as water could drop back to the cistern without landing on the decks. Next steps could have been the second extension. And perhaps the lower cistern to be watertight and a cistern atop for reasons that we do not guess yet? XXXDAn

I think this is what you mean and what also is my suspicion :-) XXXDAn

@ Mark, I have updated the article above. Could those "hexagon things" be the upper part of ZAZ0216? Thanks for the help! Just some left-overs from above article ... Queen Charlotte 1790; ZAZ0160 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79951.html ZAZ0159 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79950.html

Hello Mark, thank you, I am also strongly convinced about those three blue ones being elm tree pumps. And I am with you ... "Those hexagon things on the upper.... I have no idea. " ;-) But exactly above the lower cisterns ... ... just handles and coq-wheels missing like the lower deck? XXXDAn

Here are some more interesting details: The detail mentioned from Mark on Princess Royal 1773 as model ... ... and as drawing in NMM ZAZ0339 ... http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80130.html ... with an interesting detail: See also ZAZ0348 for the same detail. Anybody with a better resolution? http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80139.html Also Sandwich 1759 ZAZ0494 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80285.html ZAZ0496 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80287.html The same seen on Duke 1785 ZAZ0219 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80010.html ZAZ0215 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80006.html ZAZ0216 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80007.html Could possibly be also seen on 'Barfleur' (1768); 'Prince George' (1772) ZAZ0349 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80140.html HMS Britannia (1820); Prince Regent (1823); ZAZ4908; http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/84699.html Queen Charlotte 1810 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79809.html ZAZ0018 HMS Hibernia 1804 ZAZ0012 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79803.html HMS Nelson PAH9223 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/149170.html And interesting too, the spanish Salvador del Mundo ZAZ0042 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/79833.html

Funny enough I just prepared a post parallel to yours in our german forum towards this topic, thank you Mark :-) If one looks long enough one can find wondrous things in well known sources ... Here is a picture I posted a long time ago when I was dealing with the pumps in my build #157 . It shows the draughts of the repair in 1788 and clearly indicates the cisterns in the two decks: Also I detected some marks exactly in the positions the elm tree pumps had to be (blue circles). But not two of them like today - in the lower and upper deck - no there were three. As today one pump is situated in the upper deck I supposed the one on this deck missing in the drawing (green circle) Lately I realised something on a well known picture: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66743.htm SLR0782; Scale: 1:24. A midship sectional model of the 110-gun first rate ship HMS Queen (1839) Do you see it, do you see it?!? One pump (light blue) goes to the lower deck and two go to the middle deck, none to the upper deck, just as seen in the drawing of 1788. ... very interesting ... ... and do you see more!? What are those octagonal double bits always on to of one cisterne? Fore pump ... ... aft pump. Usually ships of that class used to have both chain pumps reaching the upper deck. And ... no handles or wheels shown ... Questions over questions - it stays puzzling :-) XXXDAn PS: Mark, you are welcome, and thanks biting the bait ;-)

... or toss them over board ;-) XXXDAn

Look I just cleared for action ;-) Not better or worse than any other battle station :-) XXXDAn

Thank you Druxey and wq ! @wq Those partitions were removable, sometimes nothing more than sail cloth hanging but giving a tiny bit of privacy. In earlier days, these partitions were wooden ones with panels and well situated over the whole gundeck ... At times of Trafalgar those were mere cloth or cloth on a frame, easy to bring to the hold or even to toss them over board - as kept in one of the logs of the ships, I think it was Royal Sovereign. The windows usually are just shown for wardroom - or higher quarters - and not the gunroom. Cheers, Daniel

Here some more research. In AOTS Bellona is nicely shown what can be found everywhere else: The divisions of the wardroom one deck up follow a quite complicated layout and - even though often the guns are fore-aft direction - the guns are always included into the cabin. In opposition all the drawings of the gun room I know show the cabins situated in between the guns, again AOTS Bellona: Here the Victory of 1737 ... ... and the Bedford of 1775 from Lavery ... ... or the Neptune of 1730 with a combination of fix cabins and canvas ones. Here both kind of bulkheads as shown in AOTS Bellona. Then I realised: The size of the cabin has to house one bunk and nothing more! So I has another look at my Vic ... ... build some bunks and see ... ... it fits, the cabins only were ti big before :-) Question over question - could this work?!? So a solution with frame or pure canvas? Both versions are proven, so the choice stays free?!? Grüßle, Daniel

Thank you wq! Longridge describes exactely what is on display today in the ship. There are some documents in the NMM suggesting that the arrangement could have been different in the past. Cheers, DAniel

The material described by Mark is the material from Tiffany. I used for my Vic. Here are some tests I did with Rosie the riveter ;-) ... the outer lines with 0,75 mm distance, inside with 1,5 mm. I also found some nice hints in a swiss forum about the different shades of copper: Fresh having a copper brownish color, dark brown in harbour, on air greenish, where there are is abrasive power of water while sailing, it turns pink. Found all these colors on photographs. So I tried some things out with casein paint: Coppering not too old, no weed yet, just started sailing, means brown bottom, waterline pink and above green ... ... on cruise the brown turning more pinkish, also reduction of green ... ... and the brown almost disappeared. Here both last versions side by side for better comparisson. Cheers, Daniel

Gentlemen, thank you very much for all your input, it is pleasure to follow :-) My basic thpought of having more people being able to work is still the strongest reason for this setup. But the cisterns and the outlets shown still puzzle me to bits ;-) What Mark and Druxey guess would makes sense. Having the pump in the lower deck being worked with cranks on both sides and the pump in the middle deck also being manned on both sides would give the double amount of people being able to pump this resulting in a higher speed and therefor more water being raised. Still puzzling is here the two cisterns and also that later on both pumps were made reach the lower deck. All the drawings in NMM show these setups and dales on all the cisterns (if shown). Are there any other models known like the Princess with this setup? Cheers, DAniel

Yes, even better ones :-) Cheers, Daniel

... go to a show and tell ... ... day two ... First we had to calm down Alexander, who had a breakdown after the secrets about the quality of his Sphynx was revealed the day before. Now he stands there with shattered dreams, on the pile of shards that is nothing more than a worthless and substandard model, now filled with the hankies of his bitter tears. I always told him to do a bit of research before starting to build. At least a little bit, a tiny bit. And better he would have done the scuppers of the decks properly and not just faked, as now the deck is stained with plenty of teardrops that could not drain away ... http://modelshipworl...-12#entry258120 And dear Norbert was told, to better put planks, as the water could penetrate through the gaps in between the frames. They even did not accept the far-fetched excuse, that these were the scuppers needed to drain out the water that came over and in by the hatches ... Especially Joachim´s Vasa was judged to be unrealistic, as it is missing a very elementary part, the pirat plank that all ships of those days were fitted with ... ... and now he stands there and tries to find out where it fits. Just Dieter, he was fine, as it was discovered immediately, that that little boat is an easy to build snap-together kit ... ... never build a ship, do not worry, that´s easy, just tell me where to get the kit and I will do even better :-) Just Ingo, he was clever, he gleamed in the brilliance of his latest build :-) So we really enjoyed thoroughly, DAniel

And always a highlight for me, Revell´s Cutty. I simply love those hybrid builds, that make wonders out of a heap of plastic ! And here some proud ship builders :-) Kingsley Phantom-Robert, aka Tarjack the boneman ... http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1749-hmy-royal-caroline-1749-by-tarjack-made-from-bone-m-1-50/?hl=%2Bbone+%2Bcaroline ... my treassssssssure! THE dafi End day one :-)

PS: Oh yeah, some models were there too ;-)

This weekend, lifestyle trade show at Stuttgart, near my home. And guess what, the friends from Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau (Work group historical ship building) had a small booth in the hobby hall :-) So there was to be tinkered publicly ... ... talked ... ... to be engrossed into building ... ... discussed ... ... looked up ... ... conversated ... ... immersed even more into model building ... ... and for a change some chatted and gossiped. Robert explained the esprit of his Phantom ... ... while poor Joachim had to listen for half an hour to this dear man who explained to him, why Alexander´s Sphynx is not relly well done - to put it politely ;-) Joachim: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/836-amerigo-vespucci-by-schiffebastler-mantua-model-scale-184-italien-sail-training-ship-build-1931/ How will Alex react? How will he deal with this truth? See day two ... Sphinx: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/410-hms-sphynx-by-alex-m-scale-148-english-20-gun-frigate-as-build-1775/page-12#entry258120