EJ_L

Dear all
I am about to buy timber for my current project but I am not really sure what to use. The scale is large (1:10) and it will be carvel-built with steam bend ribs. The cost will be considerable but I can choose from a large variety of woods. 
I will use Pear for the keel, sternpost, stem and beams but I am not sure what to use for the ribs and planks.
Options (I think)
Ribs: oak, ash or beech, maybe American cherry
Hull planks: Maple, american cherry, beech, ?else
 
Somehow I think pear would be difficult to use for hull planks.
Could I have your thoughts and advice please?
 
Regards
 

This has always been a tough decision whit model building in general. My first ship build was the Constitution. It was Revell's plastic 1:96 scale kit. Granted I had been modeling for about 15 years at that point so I was not new to model building, nor complicated builds. I do admit though that there were times when I thought I had bit off more than I could chew with that kit. Even with the kits two piece hull and very good instructions, it is still a very daunting kit to someone who had never built a ship before and maybe more than I should have undertaken. That being said, it came out beautiful two years later and sits proudly in my dad's house as it was him I built it for.
 
Now that being said, I was not interested in building other ships at the time. That one was undertaken as a gift for my dad as he was not able to finish his model of the Constitution and it had become too badly damaged to salvage. Had I started building a simpler ship but without the motivation to build it other than "this looks fun" I may not have wanted to push through to completion when I hit those hard places. I learned a lot on that first build and every time I managed to struggle my way through to completion of a part I would (and still do) sit back and admire it for a long time. This is where my love of ship building was born. Seeing that majestic ship come together and knowing that I made that happen created a love of this hobby and filled that void that other models were not able to do.
 
I know my story is in the minority of first time ship builders. I also know that models are put on hold for many reasons other than burnout. My dad's had to stop because he had me, was going to college, working 2 jobs and then my mom died. He has built models since but never had the time to complete his Constitution before the ship got ruined. A friend of mine from the Navy has a great model railroad layout that never got completed since he was constantly getting deployed and now is getting ready to retire and move so he has to disassemble it. Just recently my own build has stopped as I found out last week my dog of 11 years has cancer, no way to fix it and we had to put him down yesterday. My wife and I are still devastated over this loss.
 
I think it is wise of us as a community of experienced builders to encourage first timers to choose easier kits as it is a shame to see so many unfinished builds out there. However, I do not think we should discourage them if they choose to take on a harder one to start. Instead, be sure to constantly follow their builds and try to offer help and suggestions on how to get through those tough areas when they are reached. We do not always know what outside circumstances may cause a build to stop.

I am with Chuck, Mark and Brian, I got into this hobby when I was unemployed and looking for something to keep me sane in what I thought would be a long search for employment. Had I been shuffled off to the newbie section I doubt I would have been exposed to the other more skilled builders here, some of whom have inadvertently nudged me into the world of bashing and scratching (sounds like a disease dont it?) Now I have pretty much thrown caution to the wind and am scratching my own masts, I dont think I would have ever attempted that with out looking over the shoulders of the more experienced and the guidance and input of those who stop in to say hey. Are my masts 100% correct? He!! no, but I am having fun.
Ok, back to building my Cross and Trestle Trees, for the 3rd @&@%#$ TIME!! :P
 
Sam

I agree completely with Chuck.  My first build in the main kit area probably got a lot more attention, and I got a lot more advice, than it might have if I was in the 'newbie' area that maybe wouldn't have been as heavily traveled.  I've also learned a huge amount by reading build logs of much more experience modelers.  
 
I may not be able to scratch-build an amazing ship like Dan Vadas, but darned if I don't learn a great deal about techniques and tools while watching him do it!
 
The beautiful work that others do made me truly stretch my abilities and try things I would have never considered when I was building the AVS, and I'm extremely grateful to everyone that I learned from on here for that.

Chuck,
 
I agree with you on this point.  Back on MSW 1.0, there was a "division" but by materials.  Plastics had their own build logs and many of the builders felt like second class citizens.  Why go back to that?    We were all beginners at some point and if it were not being able to mix and mingle with the experienced builders, most of us would have walked away from this hobby calling it "elitist".  We're all just builders and the attitude around here since day one is "helping each other".  

I would not recommend this.  I believe I would have been ill served if I had been forced to go into the kiddies pool until I learned how to swim when I first signed aboard.  Being able to see the various levels of accomplishment helped highlight what I was getting into and let me know there were many like me.  Meanwhile it also gave me a goal to strive for.
 
    Looking at the build logs of some of the more accomplished modelers helped me learn the terminology and gave me an appreciation for the quality that could be achieved.  I was also able to take away little pieces of "how to do it".  I may not be able to build a whole model like a master, but I can plank like one (that's my story and I'm sticking to it), or I can paint like one, or make thingamabobs like one.
 
    Throwing out a question while bobbing around in the main pool ensures that everybody sees it.  If there was just a beginners section, the question might only be seen by other beginners and those veterans who might specifically be there to do some mentoring. 
 
    I see nothing wrong with the way it is now.  Just my 2 euro's worth.

Hello,

 

The length of the hull and deck planking on French ship must be between 22 and 50 (french) feet either from 7.15 to 16.25 m. This is explained by the supply of ports, it is more of an observation than a rule: the planks are 10 to 13 inches (27 to 35 cm) wide which requires trees of big size to debit if we take into account the removal of the sapwood.
For the sake of economy, it operates the maximum usable length in the trees also available strakes have very varying lengths but still nearby the recited values. Near the hull ends, strakes are shorter because they are cut in wood twisted to adapt to the curvature of constraints; on the sides, they are the longest length available in the timber yard.
Typically, the plank lengths on the plans are indicative, you have the freedom to place your differences, you only have to stick to the lengths detailed above, but mainly to avoid having two successive scarph on the same frame at least four or five strakes above or below.
 
For Le Gros-ventre,  indicative lengths are drawn on the plates No. 21, 22 and 25.
 
Regards,
Gérard Delacroix
 
(Message send in MP to Mau)

This is American from 1826 - HASN   - General Instructions for building a Sloop of War
 
No length specified,  but " No plank to be more than 12" wide at midships."  I would think this would hold generally as a width max for any ship.
 
Deck plank   Heart Pine "no more than 10" in width"  "Average length to be 40'."
 
We had a lot more trees  than France - and most were 1st growth.  The pine was probably from the southeast US and the trees were 80-120 feet tall - mostly straight - and free of branches until near the top. 
The White Oak could also be 80' tall - so long plank "could" be had - the wood is much heavier the effort in manipulating the logs probably constrained how long they cut the logs.   Unlike deck planks, hull planks have curves and sometimes recurves.  The spilling required with an especially long hull plank would probably involve more wasted wood than most builders would tolerate.

Cheers Don   A few cloth sacks next

Made the buckets for both builds

 
In place on the deck

Great story, thanks for the chuckle. The boy is lucky he has a dad who is out there sharing with him.

I like this idea. If the person has simply lost interest, chances are, he won't be here reading the PM anyway, so no harm done. But if he is lurking and scratching his head in bewilderment, such a friendly nudge might be just the thing he needs to speak up.

Reminded of a story. A Friday nite beercan from Rush Creek to Chandler's Landing and back. It was dusk, and flat. We had rounded and were ghosting with the kite in 'maybe' 3-4 knots. Upwind comes a Harmony 24 who just dropped her genoa. A young boy was on the bow, covered with lines and draped with the sail. It was a silent kind of evening, and over the water floats this plaintive little voice saying "Daddy .. what the sh*t do I do now?"
 
Thus it is with first time anything. I appreciate and agree with Chris' cautionary tale. However, I think that we, as a community, might extend the paradigm a bit. One doesn't tell a landsman that he is on the fore topmast. It takes time and help (yes, and training) to get anywhere in an area as complex as this can be. Some of our threads are populated by people that are the equivalent of Olympic, America's Cup, or Volvo champions. Pity the young foredeck monkey.
 
Can we make a separate space for first-time, intermediate, modellers, where they can post and ask, and we can help and comment, without their being intimidated by competing with some of our member's exquisiteness? I know this is not politically correct, and has implications for being on 'the second tier', but someone who is truly interested in the 'hobby' and wants to learn and grow, may find it useful.
 
Just saying.
 
Ciao. John

I apologize Chris as I am probably one of those members who misunderstood what you were trying to do with the thread.
 
I think another big issue that causes the new builder to get in over there heads is how they are introduced to the hobby or ships in general. They see the Constitution, Victory, Cutty Sark etc. and want to build them because those are the ones in abundance and available to see in person. The inspiration is set to that level of wow! and it is hard from that point to want to build a much simpler ship. Many of the simpler starter kits are of less famous ships and as such they get fewer people who even know about them much less want to build. Then as I have seen others say, "canons are cool!" As a kid inspiration is going to come from that 100 gun man of war and not a small 0-4 gun vessel.
 
I think that to help encourage first time builders to choose a simpler ship to start from is that we need to find ways to promote those smaller, simpler vessels. Just in the 6 month I have been apart of this community my knowledge and exposure to other ships as expanded immensely. I'm not completely sure the best ways of doing this but perhaps one idea would be to somehow find ways of featuring beginner kits and make them appealing. Possibly by listing their history or significance to a particular country by talking them up much like we see on the more popular ships. Even perhaps create a section on here that is specifically for beginner ships so that new comers to the hobby can see other first time builder's work so that they feel more comfortable sharing their work and not feel like their skills are sub par when all they see are some of the great works that are on here.

I am guilty of not finishing some of my kits. In fact there are a few of them listed in my signature as unfinished. One of them I do not feel bad about as it is a joint projects with a friend while I was still in the Navy and is now awaiting his retirement. The others either had issues with the kit, the instructions or I just lost interest in finishing them. The fact that they are plastic kits also has something to do with it as I have grown to love wooden ships more. I still may sit down and finish them one day. 

This has always been a tough decision whit model building in general. My first ship build was the Constitution. It was Revell's plastic 1:96 scale kit. Granted I had been modeling for about 15 years at that point so I was not new to model building, nor complicated builds. I do admit though that there were times when I thought I had bit off more than I could chew with that kit. Even with the kits two piece hull and very good instructions, it is still a very daunting kit to someone who had never built a ship before and maybe more than I should have undertaken. That being said, it came out beautiful two years later and sits proudly in my dad's house as it was him I built it for.
 
Now that being said, I was not interested in building other ships at the time. That one was undertaken as a gift for my dad as he was not able to finish his model of the Constitution and it had become too badly damaged to salvage. Had I started building a simpler ship but without the motivation to build it other than "this looks fun" I may not have wanted to push through to completion when I hit those hard places. I learned a lot on that first build and every time I managed to struggle my way through to completion of a part I would (and still do) sit back and admire it for a long time. This is where my love of ship building was born. Seeing that majestic ship come together and knowing that I made that happen created a love of this hobby and filled that void that other models were not able to do.
 
I know my story is in the minority of first time ship builders. I also know that models are put on hold for many reasons other than burnout. My dad's had to stop because he had me, was going to college, working 2 jobs and then my mom died. He has built models since but never had the time to complete his Constitution before the ship got ruined. A friend of mine from the Navy has a great model railroad layout that never got completed since he was constantly getting deployed and now is getting ready to retire and move so he has to disassemble it. Just recently my own build has stopped as I found out last week my dog of 11 years has cancer, no way to fix it and we had to put him down yesterday. My wife and I are still devastated over this loss.
 
I think it is wise of us as a community of experienced builders to encourage first timers to choose easier kits as it is a shame to see so many unfinished builds out there. However, I do not think we should discourage them if they choose to take on a harder one to start. Instead, be sure to constantly follow their builds and try to offer help and suggestions on how to get through those tough areas when they are reached. We do not always know what outside circumstances may cause a build to stop.

Mike,
 
Have a look here for African Blackwood:  http://www.righteouswoods.com/african_blackwood_rosewood.html  I looked at some other pages I have bookmarked for wood and they all say essentially the samething.
 
They all report this is harder on blades and to work with then ebony.

I've used ebony for planking and am convinced it was spawned by the devil. But it does look very nice and finishes beautifully. The French have been planking with ebony for centuries. Just plan on sacrificing a blade or two and vacuum the area frequently as the dust ends up everywhere. Oh, and wear a mask, especially if using the thickness sander. You'll have to experiment if you want treenails to show. I made them from Swiss pear and they worked out well.
 
If you have curved areas to plank, such as a bluff bow, you can laminate two pieces of ebony together over a form and it retains the curve nicely. This was Harold Hahn's technique and it worked very well for me.

I'm so pleased with the "painting with wood" on my Pegasus that I'm all gung-ho for doing the same on my Morgan.  My initial thought was for the black areas (upper hull planking, part of stem and cap rails) to use pear that is stained black.  Now I'm think about using African Blackwood instead.  
 
The black-stained pear looks really nice, but it tends to hide the grain (at least the stain I'm using).  I'm thinking about going all natural with my Morgan - holly for the white areas, boxwood for the ochre areas, and something like maple for the deck. You see a little grain with those woods, so I'm thinking African Blackwood might look fantastic.  It sounds like it's less difficult to work as ebony, and possibly less of an allergy inducer.  It's a decent amount of area to cover, but pretty limited to things that aren't too difficult to craft.
 
Am I crazy?  Has anyone else here used African Blackwood on the builds that can share their views on it?  Thanks!
 
 

Well here is a saga that ended well. The owner of the ship model kits previously referred to called  and offered his kits up to the Military History Society of Rochester NY. In turn he will receive a write off for his taxes and we the Model Shipwright Guild of Western NY will work to find the kits a good home and hopefully raise funds for the museum in so doing. This was a win.win for all. It just shows this "band of brothers" that exists in the model ship building world.Indeed a great ending.

The garboard is wider than the other planks though I do not believe it was 2' wide as that would be a hard piece of lumber to find. I believe about 1' give or take a couple inches would be more accurate. It's width can change also as it goes from bow to stern. It will be narrower at the bow, widest in the middle and narrow again at the stern. This is to create a straight edge to run the rest of the planking off of. Make sure the garboard does not curve up at the bow.

The garboard is wider than the other planks though I do not believe it was 2' wide as that would be a hard piece of lumber to find. I believe about 1' give or take a couple inches would be more accurate. It's width can change also as it goes from bow to stern. It will be narrower at the bow, widest in the middle and narrow again at the stern. This is to create a straight edge to run the rest of the planking off of. Make sure the garboard does not curve up at the bow.

Chris, have removed my posts, your revisions has made them inappropriate and I like the changes. I also didn't intend offense but it is something I seem to do often, probably never change.
jud

One last update:
 
Please remember, the target audience for the original post was FIRST-TIME Modelers. It was intended as a cautionary tale and no more. It was not a grievance about unfinished build logs. Unfinished logs are what they are -- unfinished logs. We don't need (or even desire) to cull them. We have plenty of room for them.
 
I have heavily edited my original post to 'soften' its perceived tone a bit, and I have deleted portions of a few other posts that referenced portions of the original post that have been removed. When this conversation has run its course, I will probably further prune this thread a bit simply to make it more relevant to new members.
 
None of my posts were intended to give offense, and I have taken none in return. If you feel the need to post in this thread, I only ask that you keep it civil, and try to keep it on-topic (and yes, I know I made the comment about corgis -- that post will be pruned, too).
 
Cheers, everyone.

The garboard is wider than the other planks though I do not believe it was 2' wide as that would be a hard piece of lumber to find. I believe about 1' give or take a couple inches would be more accurate. It's width can change also as it goes from bow to stern. It will be narrower at the bow, widest in the middle and narrow again at the stern. This is to create a straight edge to run the rest of the planking off of. Make sure the garboard does not curve up at the bow.