allanyed

The shape/design of the carriages for the Blomefield pattern above or in Caruana can probably be used as well as those by David White in the AOTS book. The lengths will need some adjustment for each length barrel. In addition Caruana goes into detail that the distance between the brackets should be one inch more than the widths for the diameters at the reinforce rings. Another interesting point is that the carriages were usually painted red due to costs. He goes on to say that not only were they painted, they were on a schedule to be repainted every 9 months. He also mentions that on occasion they were painted white or even gold. Unpainted carriages, to me, look great as the details are more obvious, but if requested I will go with the red in the future. Mark, I agree, the carriage drawings on pages 106 and 107 are well done and look to be 1791 version used with Blomefields. Allan

Paul I believe there is information on this in Ed Tosti's books and his build log here at MSW on Young America. I just did a little research and there is detailed information on the sheer poles and seems to be good information on lines belayed to the sheer poles. Allan

Hi David This is a very interesting subject. The carriages varied in length with the barrels at some point. For example, on pages 369 and 370 in Caruana's Volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance, from drawings in the British Library he shows the 1732 pattern for a 7 foot long 6 pounder was 4' &1/2" long. The carriage for an 8 foot 6 pounder was 5 feet long, thus the added length was about that of the added length of the barrel. By the same token, on page 371 he shows a carriage for a 7 foot long 9 pounder at 4' 8" long. He shows a 24 pounder 9' 6" long having a carriage of 6 feet long. He shows more carriages but does not give the barrel lengths so perhaps the carriages did not vary with barrel length at all times. The following may give you some help. The Robertson Treatise of 1775, https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ww8Fg5rD8hsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=robertson+treatise+of+mathematical+instruments&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_BPoU-DtFYWjyATihoLgDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false and the treatise of Katrina Bunyard, 2019, https://thescholarship.ecu.edu/bitstream/handle/10342/7250/BUNYARD-MASTERSTHESIS-2019.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y In addition to the dimensional information, assuming Diana was outfitted with Blomefield pattern guns, the carriages may have had cleats which were introduced about the time of Diana. Drawing showing these, based on those in Caruana, is below as jpg and PDF. Allan 1795 pattern carriage 24 pounder.PDF

This topic continues to be very interesting. With only four catharpins being appropriate for the time period, I have not been able to find if there was a standard for which shrouds would have had them. Common sense suggests they would not rub against the mast as B.E. has pointed out, but which ones would have been used as the norm? Those in the photo aft of the mast on the Victory seem to make a lot of sense. Allan

BCD What model/kit is your project? Thanks Allan

The wood they gave you is not well suited for planking so this may create problems for some folks, not all, from the start. In a nutshell, the advice above is worth following, along with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWooJ1o3cM This is part 1, study all four parts. https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf here at MSW for a great how-to on spiling planks Your photos show that you seen to be trying to edge bend and that usually is problematic unless following the methods similar to the videos above. Allan

Not sure about historical accuracy but the system looks like it would work. Thanks again for sharing. Allan

Extremely neat work!!! I realize this was probably supplied with the kit, but how do the oars work on the single tholes rather than between a pair? On the contemporary sources regarding British ship's boats that I have seen, when tholes were shown they have only been as pairs of tholes and all were made of wood. I really am curious how these single pins would be used as they really do look nice. Allan

Thanks JJ this a great stuff. I had downloaded all the drawings you mention from the high res group of plans on the Wiki Commons site as well as the many that you were so kind to send me. I love the fifties and Bristol or Salisbury are on my hit list to draw up frames and hopefully build as they both still have a lot of carvings and no copper bottom sheathing when launched as it is my understanding coppering did not really come into common use until the late 1770s. What are you using for scantlings in addition to the plans? The closest I ever found find are those in the 39 page 1745 Establishment and Shipbuilder's Repository 1788. There are likely some differences and the plans are the obvious go to rather than these two sources if there is a controversy. I greatly admire the research you have done! Allan

JJ Your work looks VERY good! What contemporary plans did you use for the deck layouts, including gratings, ladder ways, &c? I assume you used the inboard profile as a guide, but curious about this. I could only find one contemporary set of deck plans for a fifty of that era, Salisbury 1770. She is not listed as a Portland class but there are many similarities. Thanks for sharing on your log. Having a high qual kit of a fifty looks to fill a niche in our hobby. Allan

I love the silk span sails! It is so nice to see these compared to the burlap material many kits supply and the ensuing out-of-scale sewing that goes with it. Great looking model overall!! Allan

Can you post a couple photos? If the planks are spiled or otherwise tapered and pre-curved before attaching to the hull the sanding should be minimal as described by Gregory. If the planks are lifted due to edge bending, it may require additional work if, hopefully, there is still enough wood to scrape or sand. I prefer scraping to sanding in some few cases, depending on the situation, especially deck planking. Allan

By far one the nicest renditions, especially at that scale, and I love the false keel being bare and stapled!!! VERY REALISTIC-- KUDOS!! Allan

Your ship would have carried Borgards when launched but as she lived for over 20 years could have been re-armed with Armstrongs. If you want to go with as- launched I imagine if you get hold of the Armstrongs you can file off cascabel ring and the "2" on the George II cypher which to me are the only really noticeable differences at small scales. Either way, Ron has done outstanding work and has allowed us to fill the huge gaps in cannon patterns and sizes from kits and after market suppliers. Allan

Dafi, Those photos are great to see. Comparing the number and size of the nails on each plate in a real situation confirms the many comments here at MSW and elsewhere that at smaller scales, it is nigh impossible to accurately replicate these on a model ship at scales smaller than 1:48. With the many out-of-scale plates and nail dents (or worse, rivet like bumps) that we see the idea of plain copper tape or just painting the bottom will look more realistic. Allan

Hi Linda, As you already have the holes drilled, maybe something to consider for the future...... Using James Lees proportions in his The Masting and Rigging book (which may not apply on a modern training ship like the AV) and guessing the lower mast is about 8mm, the royal stay would be about 1/4 mm at 1:100 scale so the slot for the sheave (or hole itself for the line, if foregoing the sheave) would be less than 1/2mm. Regardless, a safe proportion would be to have a hole that is no more than about 0.0625 times the diameter of the lower mast where it pierces the deck. Allan

Started my day off with a good laugh, thanks for the post😁😁

Very nice work Rod! The stove mini kit is a gem but raises a question. In the Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War Lavery states that with the advent of iron stoves, they sat on a flat metal base, but this looks more like brick or stone work, thus my confusion. I realize very little is set in stone in shipbuilding in the days of sail and would not be surprised if one or the other or perhaps both types were used on various ships, but I am curious if there was a so called norm and if anyone knows of other sources of contemporary based information on this. Allan

Something modern such as the latest Auld Mug winners including the New Zealand Te Rehutai (Sea Spray) in the photo below. Then again, these may be better suited to plastic. It might be very interesting to have a model of America 1851 and Te Rehutai on display side by side. Video below is really interesting --- 50 knots in a sail boat!!!! Allan

Big OOOPS on my part Chuck.😁 I really should have thought about that possibility. What threw me though was the plank(?) in the second photo which is inside the hawse piece. Allan

Shipfic A warm welcome to MSW. It would be nice if you posted a little intro in the new member forum with a little about yourself. Again. welcome to this motely crew. Allan

I am not sure you have done anything wrong yourself. Regarding the frames and deck beams (ribs and spars😀), while the decks were almost horizontal midships in many cases there was often some curvature. Looking at the kit, which is purportedly 16th century design, there are a number of inaccuracies so it MAY be the kit designer got it wrong. For example, there are belaying pins which were not used until two centuries later. Instead of triangular or heart shaped deadeyes there are round deadeyes which did not come into use until much later. The carriages have four trucks (wheels) where as they were usually equipped with two trucks and a sled at that time. No matter. it is part of the learning curve and the main thing is have fun while learning the intricacies which just takes time to do some research along the way. Allan

Hi Srenner I think Greyhound (20) 1720 carried 6 pounders, probably Borgard pattern, which were issued on new ships from 1716-1724. Is there a reason you want to mount 18 pounders on such a small ship? Allan

Hi Srenner, Is this for your Greyhound (20) 1720 build? Allan

Hi Paul, I may be completely misunderstanding your problem, but here goes. When you say battens, are you referring to the hull planking? Looking at the contemporary drawings of the Syren at RMG the angle of the plank that you show looks to be too sharp. but the piece that looks to represent a hawse piece looks right. If that is the case, the plank needs to be bent more to give the bluff bow appearance called for in the original drawings (the red strake below.) See sketch below. For the contemporary drawings go to https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-83191 at RMG, (low resolution) or https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich&filefrom=Sail+plan+for+18-gun+Brigs+RMG+J0057.png#/media/File:Siren-Syren_(1773)_RMG_J6306.png for a high res version on the Wiki site. Check the shape of the bow at the forecastle to see what I mean. This drawing was taken off the ship after she was launched so is more of an as built thus very accurate. Again, I may be completely misunderstanding your problem, so apologies if this confuses things. Allan