allanyed
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Everything posted by allanyed
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This is not the most interesting or earth shattering topic, but curiosity and the cat and all that. Prior to the introduction of coppered bottoms circa 1782 the bottoms were coated with white stuff. Ships' boats aside, were some RN ships still built without the copper sheathing in favor of the white stuff once the copper sheathing practice became the norm in the 1780s? I spent some time looking at how the white protective coatings on contemporary models was done and noticed that the majority of these contemporary models had the white stuff follow the sheer of the bottom of the main wale, not the water line. It would be easier to paint the bottom of a model like this rather than a perfectly horizontal water line but what was done on the actual ships? To me both styles look good. I have seen the white bottoms planked with holly rather than using paint and it is a truly beautiful thing but invariably seems to follow the sheer of the wales, not the waterline. TIA Allan -
Help for blocks with hoop required.
allanyed replied to Tony28's topic in Masting, rigging and sails
Hi Tony What vessel is this? Depending on the vessel you are building things could vary but I don't think any blocks were ever externally stropped with a metal rod. The pics look like this might be a schooner versus an 18th century ship or similar. If that is the case and it is before the time of internally stropped blocks I believe they would be stropped with rope but if internally stropped as I believe was started in the second half of the 19th century they would probably have a metal strap inside the shell, not outside. There would likely be a traveler or ring attached to the strop so the ring or the traveler would ride the horse. Examples follow from Chapelle's American Fishing Schooners, pages 463 and 464 which also show the requisite fairleads. Do your blocks actually only have one hole in them like the sketch you posted? 😗 Allan
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Looks like a really nice kit. I noticed belaying pins in the box and wonder why as they were not used by most European navies until mid to late 18th century. Were the Germans ahead of the British, Spanish, and French I wonder? Regarding the frames, they actually look pretty good to me as the heads of the top timbers were likely about 5 inches in and out, maybe less, so about 2.5 mm (0.10"). For a little protection I would add a temporary harpin or two with PVA so it is easy to remove them later with a little water of IPA. Maybe also some temporary beams on each bulkhead, up high, which will also maintain the breadth when adding the planking which might squeeze these members inboard a bit. Allan
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- Corel
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Having spiled planks is fantastic. Based on the frames it looks like the hull is planked lapstrake but there does not appear to be any gain at the bow which is unusual. The only contemporary models of English shallops I could find are carvel built, not lapstrake. Was this one of those things that depending on where they were built the style could vary? There were contracts for boat yards and after studying a couple from the 17th century there is no mention of the style of planking in any of them and W.E. May does not mention anything in his description of shallops so who knows for sure? Interesting, one way or the other, and looks to be a nice kit overall. Allan
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- Shallop
- Pavel Nitikin
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Thanks for the credit Glenn, but the information was gleaned mainly from James Lees book The Masting and Rigging English of Ships of War. This angle did vary over time so for anyone building an earlier British RN ship, the angle is not the same nor is the hardware that holds the booms or rigging of the stunsails, again, according to Lees. Allan
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Just one more opinion, hope you don't mind, but the decks were holy stoned and very light rather than dark. The caulking on the edges was barely visible so you may be better off using the wood supplied as is and forget the blackened edges as they look extremely heavy just as treenailing and bolting (which is barely visible at full scale) would look totally out of place at 1:90 scale. Photos of decks of contemporary models from Preble Hall are below. These are 1:48 scale and even they do not blacken the edges. If you really want the edges blackened at your scale maybe try a pencil or black tissue paper which will give a very clean edge. Allan
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A very warm welcome to you! Looking at your temperatures and winter not being officially here yet, I thought any offered warmth would be welcome.😀 Allan
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I agree for most ships, but the keels of the the Alert and Flirt are not flat. It rises both fore and aft. Not noticeable by most so not a big deal, just something a bit different. ZAZ4631 at RMG Collections https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-84422 PDF below Allan Flirt keel line.PDF
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That one threw me so I looked it up and it is what we in the US call dollar stores. NOT a place to find ship models or ship model kits. Their ads show finished models for the same price as kits, what's up with that? Allan
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It is a good idea to check any modern sources to see the contemporary sources on which their information is based, be it plans, contracts, or models. In the case of questions regarding kit instructions it is not difficult to do a bit of your own research of contemporary plans, models, and in some cases for ships built in private yards, original contracts. There are a number of high res plans of the Artois class, which includes Diana, available on Wikicommons site and some additional low res plans on the RMG Collections site that should give you the designed gun port positions. Regarding cutting the bulkheads, nothing wrong with installing the gun port lids in a closed location as appropriate. 😀 Allan
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Another anomaly that Scrubby and I have come across when comparing the Bristol and Portland plans is regarding the orlop deck beams. The Portland plans show scarphed deck beams which was not so common on the orlop, and the Bristol shows 16.5" broad single piece beams. I checked Steel and he shows 50 gun ships had orlop beams that varied in siding from 11" to 13" depending on where in the hold they were located. The Shipbuilder's Repository 1788 does not give any widths for the orlop beams. The 1719, 1745, and 1750 Establishments show 13" siding. In the end, barring seeing a contract I would follow the drawing, but that is a significant difference. As both were built at the RN yard in Sheerness, there would not be a contract, but perhaps others of this class were built in private yards so contracts would have been written and could shed some light. Allan
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Hello Dan, Welcome to the fray. It is great place to share and learn, enjoy the ride. Allan
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Before spending even a little money, I am very interested in the accuracy of this book. Does anyone one know what sources Mr. Kirsch used? To what detail does he go and does it cover galleons from Spain, England or?????? Many thanks in advance. Allan
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Love it Dean!!
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The copper plating is impressive as it looks realistic compared to the ones that look like they are held on with giant rivets. Really nice work. Your rudder gudgeons and pintles look to be to scale which is great. Not all kits are accurate when it comes to these rudder parts and yours look really good. Just as an FYI, the Admiralty did not allow the names on the sterns of RN ships except from about 1781 to 1790. As Pegasus was launched in 1776 and was lost 10 months later she probably would not have her name on the stern. Were there exceptions? Maybe, as there are a couple contemporary models and plans (Bristol 1775 is an example) outside that time period with their name on the stern. Even in these cases I have some doubts that the ship itself had the name as it was Admiralty orders not to. Then again artist license applies though for our models.😀 Allan
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Hi Dean Sorry for the miscommunication. I was not suggesting anyone must follow the construction, I was asking about the correct interpretation of the drawing. Is it indicating scarphs or something else? As to including hidden details, I am with David, put 'em in if you want to, leave 'em out if you don't. I have done both and feel good about both. Even an in between with the partially planked decks to show a few of the carlings and lintels and maybe a peek at the stove and such is an option as you mentioned. David, regarding tree nailing decks I would go farther and say that, for me, the use of these has ruined a lot more otherwise really nice models than they ever enhanced. But, as you so eloquently stated en français, chacun à son goût! Allan
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Huw Is your post an offer to sell your boxwood? Allan
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A few of us have looked at these drawings and are of the opinion that the drawing of the beam ends in elevation indicate lips of the scarphs. This was new for us so would be interested to hear others' opinions as to what the circled area indicate, offsets of the scarphs or something else. Note that the Bristol (50) has no scarphs on the orlop beams where as the Portland (50) may, if the offsets shown are indeed scarphs. Hard to see on the JPG but pretty clear on the PDF that follows. Allan Beam question.PDF
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Chuck, Thanks!! I was going to ask if small vessels like cutters would have had a false keel so thanks for pointing this out😀 In the case of Cheerful was it because the keel does not sit flat but rises fore and aft (ZAZ6467), or, ships' boats aside, was having no false keel typical for cutters and similar size vessels? Thanks again. Allan
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Glenn is correct. One more drawing regarding terminology showing HMS Bristol (50) in png and pdf. PDF is much more clear. Allan Keel, false keel, etc..PDF
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Your gratings look nice. One trick I went to years ago to be sure there are no openings against one or more of the head ledges or coamings is to finish the grating so it is a solid band on all four sides as close to the plan dimensions as possible, then make the surrounding timber of head ledges and coamings to fit the grating, not the other way around. Picture & a thousand words, etc. below Allan
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As time is sometimes part of your equation, the hot air gun will save hours. The Galaxy Pro should suffice and can be found on Amazon UK for a reasonable price. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=hOT+AIR+guns&crid=O6BKDLLKMS3T&sprefix=hot+air+guns%2Caps%2C198&ref=nb_sb_noss_1 Allan
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HI David The frames were routinely cut for the gun ports so there is little danger from cutting too many. For example the Portland (50) 1770 is typical in that it had 50 frames cut short on each side to accommodate the gun ports on the various decks. The Impregnable (98) 1810 had frames cut short in 106 places on each side for the entry port and gun ports. Allan
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Sounds like Paul solved the problem, but there is no false keel in your photo, just the keel and the piece with slots for the bulkheads above the keel so it was confusing when first reading your post. Most likely a terminology issue and happy the problem was solved. Allan
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