Jaager
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MDF for laser-cutting new frames
Jaager replied to rshousha's topic in CAD and 3D Modelling/Drafting Plans with Software
I think you should be careful about terminology. The transverse parts in POB are actually molds of the cross sectional hull shape rather than being bulkheads and they certainly are not frames. They are just where a few of the frames would be. Bulkhead is a useful short hand term to describe the unit, but using "Frame" would cause confusion. MDF is as much the binder as it is wood fibers. The binder is what would be toxic. For many of us there is a philosophical split between using Nature supplied components and man made components. Plywood is a step towards man made for pre 1880's ship models and MDF is major step in the plastics direction. -
I have read a lot of articles covering POF techniques and I can't recall any where the ceiling was applied first. But in most of them - the outside planking was completely or partially omitted to show the frames. Russ exactly stated my thoughts on how it should be done. In real practice, I think it was also done as Russ stated. One - I think the outside planking was thru doweled and thru nailed. The inside planking would be messed up if was present. Two - in many vessels, the space between the frames was filled with rock salt as the ceiling went up, so the planking would need to be there. For models I am of the Underhill school of belt and suspenders ( glue and dowels for all joining ). In this case, the planking is held by lil pins with hutchcocks instead of clamps - the pin holes being later enlarged to trunnel diameter. It does mean that the lil pin locations need to match the final trunnel pattern.
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Organizer and drill-bits
Jaager replied to kees de mol's topic in Modeling tools and Workshop Equipment
Not my idea, but a 2 inch block of Styrofoam wall insulation (blue or pink), cut to whichever X/Y dimensions needed, and hot glued to a 1/2" plywood base makes a good bench top organizer. Home Depot sells 1 x 2 sheets of 1 inch for misc use that is not expensive and two layers can be hot glued up. -
Given that this is nearly square in cross section, if by main stais - you mean main stay: In some vessels - at the level of the first ratline - there is a wooden batten, lashed to each shroud, that acts as a spreader.
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Even if you started with a solid hull, and no planking - the solid hull being shaped to the outside of the planking, I doubt that you could do the wales, rails - keel, stem, gun ports - bow assembly - deck - hatches - in 500 hrs - you might not be able to do the stern alone in that length of time. A warship was - and still is - the ultimate of the technology of its time. Nothing we build is more complex. It encompasses just about everything the technology can do. I am not fond of lofting frames - I hoped that 3D CAD would allow the lines to be input and the frame outlines extracted at any point - but that is not what 3D CAD is about. What I wanted can be done (I think) in a 3D modeling program, but not CAD. The work involved is such that I think it easier to hand draft. I doubt Hivewire was able to model Dawn in Mondo in 500 hrs, never mind a 4th rate Man of War.
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You offer no info on where you are, but since you call the wood Lime, I am guessing the UK. If so, I can offer no alternate wood selections that are local, low cost and appropriate to your project. As Allan has said, your time frame is likely unrealistic. It generally takes longer to build a model that it did to build the original ship. Basically it is one person doing all of the tasks done by a small army of skilled craftsmen in a shipyard and its subcontractors. I would be surprised if Leopard could be modeled in 6 weeks in Blender, 3DS Max, Maya, Rhino 3D, etc. And with them, you would not need to wait 12hr for glue to setup. (You want to use a PVA wood glue like Titebond - CA instant is not a good choice.)
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A two deck fourth rate vessel will be a challenging first for scratch POF. It is possible. I would suggest a cutter, schooner, or small brig to begin, but they are not as "sexy" as a Ship-of-the-Line when first looking at this endeavor. POF is certainly closer to how the original vessels were built. It is my preference. Except for the building board, there is not much use for plywood with POF. The major sources of cost will be the tools, not the wood. You can use locally available species. Some of us harvest our own from the "wild". My favorite - Apple - is not often obtainable any other way. Lime (Linden/Basswood) will work for much, if not all. - I prefer harder wood, but that is an individual choice. Some species are open grain - open pores - have high contrast between Spring and Summer wood and do not look good to me when simulating wood at model scales ; Oak, Walnut, Mahogany, Hickory, Aspen. But again, that is a personal preference. You can use hand tools for much of the work. If you use Lime, hand tool work will be faster than with the harder species.
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From the questions that you ask, it appears that you are scratch building HMS Leopard. Asking about a plywood keel suggests that you are planning to use POB as the method to form the hull. The materials used to build the hull of a late 18th century warship is a bit more involved than a single thickness of planking. The sizes of the parts of the hull are what is called Scantlings. The easiest source for these: As for Leopard, she is well documented in the following book: There is even a set of removable plans at 1:96
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Household Ammonia
Jaager replied to Q A's Revenge's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
It is not good to bend wood. The recommendation was based on a misunderstanding of a commercial process used in ship building: pure ammonia (anhydrous ammonia) was used with heat and under pressure to bend wood. This form of ammonia was also used for commercial refrigeration - ice houses and such. There is no water in this form of ammonia. It is the water and heat that allows the wood to bend. Any ammonia present just adds an unnecessary negative complication - if it does anything at all. -
One problem that you could have is getting an identity for the species of mahogany. A lot of tropical sourced wood that is dark red is called mahogany. I suspect that the species that CrisCraft used in the early 20th century is not easily found now. If you are after the color, see if you can source some Black Cherry. It scales better, bends fairly well when steamed, and should not be much different in cost.
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Proxxon Bandsaw - owner feedback
Jaager replied to rtropp's topic in Modeling tools and Workshop Equipment
Because you do not seem to intend to expand on the possibilities offered by a band saw (harvesting your own lumber - a powerful saw is best for this, a scroll saw - a generic 9" will do) and only use it occasionally, why not go an alternate path? Find a local woodworker, or high school, or trade school who has a full size unit. Buy a blade (for what you want to do the Wood Slicer Resaw blade is ideal) that fits their saw and do it there. A local custom cabinet maker could do it, but unless you find a generous solo good 'ol boy, the cost may be too high. -
If you use natural fiber rigging material and you care how long the rigging will last, consider using bookbinders/archival quality PVA. Lineco Neutral pH Adhesive is one brand that is available. The pH of Titebond II is 3.0 - which is fairly acidic. Not much negative effect on a closed wood-wood area, but rigging is all open to air surface area. Although we need it to live, oxygen is destructive to organic materials that do not have active repair systems (are living).
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www.tamupress.com
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the wale?
Jaager replied to kier's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
For planking help - at the top : Home page - Resources - Database. The Wales were not tapered much if at all. Their function was not as fenders. They were a band or bands of thick timbers to support the frames and strengthen the hull. Their location is key, so they would be the first outside planking to be applied. Up until about mid 19th century, the Wales stood proud above the regular planking. Near the end of the wooden ship era, some ships were planked with transition planks - in a cross section view , the outside planking was a smooth curve - keel to caprail - if somewhat fat looking in places. -
OK. On your 1st jpeg - the keel - at the stern - extend the inner line of the sternpost to the lowest horizontal line. This will be the aft end of the keel "touch". At the bow, the fore part of the "touch" is where the stem line starts to curve up. Measure this distance. Using the scale of the plans (1:76, 1:72, 1:64) Covert measured inches to full size feet. If the scale is 1:76, then 127 feet should be = 1.67 feet or 20 1/16 inches. If the measured touch is 20 inches then the plans are correct. If it is closer to 16 inches, then the plans were drawn incorrectly. At the place on the keel where the center mold is placed - add the extra length. If you measure 16 inches and it should be 20 1/16 add 4 1/16 more to the keel here. Adding more molds is not a bad thing. If you had twice as many or more, you could get by with just a single layer of planking. The planks would need to be twice as thick. The hard part is that you would have to draft the outlines of the intermediate molds. When you do this, you are doing the most difficult and most tedious part of POF construction.
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- sovereign of the seas
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I got plans for HMS Prince a long time ago. I later worked thru part of the exercise in Deane's Doctrine in developing plans for a first rate of about 1670. In doing this, I learned that vessel length was based on touch of the keel. When I checked the plans of HMS Prince, I found that its length was based on LBP, not touch. The model plans were about 25-30 feet too short. Because they used the model in the Science Museum to provide the deck details, the deck is a bit crowded - trying to squeeze in the hatches and bits and such and the gunports were too close together. Plus, the model looks short and fat. If your plans are too short, you can measure the distance from the front edge of the keel to the scraph of the stem at the gundeck and the back edge of the keel to the scarph on the sternpost. Add this distance to the center of the Keel piece at the dead flat (midship mold). Make two more copies of the midship mold and add them on either side of "0" and call one "A" and the other "1". You will need to adjust the gunports, and deck furniture between the quarterdeck and forecastle, but you will have the correct distance to place it all. This will save having to redraft the hull lines
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There are 2 relatively recent books about this vessel: authors - James Sephton, 2011 and Hendrick Basmann, 2002. Before you cut wood, you may wish to check the following: Possible - about the time that these plans were drawn, there was misunderstanding about hull length. After about 1700, the given length was that of LBP (length between perpendiculars) with the perpendiculars being where the inside of the scarph at the stempost and sternpost meet the line of the gundeck (or main deck). There were slight variations in nominclature. There was at least one set of plans for a 17th century warship drawn using this to match the published hull length. Before ~1700, the given length was "touch" ( the portion of the keel assembly that is congruent with the baseline). The stem and sternpost made the actual length longer. If the published length matches what would be LBP - then the plans have the vessel about 20% too short.
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Seeking information on determining load waterline
Jaager replied to trippwj's topic in Nautical/Naval History
I have always thought that they went at this from the opposite direction. The hull form developed to work from the waterline that designer drafts (or from the Dutch style -had in his head) and then when a float, blasted to meet that waterline. -
Ship Model Restoration
Jaager replied to Old Coasty's topic in Painting, finishing and weathering products and techniques
Shellac is soluble in alcohol. HomeDepot, paint stores, hardware stores - all I see now for shellac thinner is ethanol. There used to be a lot of methanol (wood alcohol) products - but ethanol works and is not as toxic. So, if alcohol removes it, it is shellac. Varnish - I think paint thinner - mineral spirits or turpentine - will remove it. Shellac is an excellent primer for most anything else. The first coat should be diluted 1:1 with alcohol. You can follow on with full str shellac, old style varnish, polyurethane or other clear finishes or any paint. -
Household Ammonia
Jaager replied to Q A's Revenge's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Lignin is soluble in pure Ammonia, not aqueous ammonia, and certainly not the 5% solution that is household ammonia. For our purposes it is the heat that makes lignin pliable. Water/steam transfers heat much more efficiently than dry wood. Using ammonia instead of plain water just adds an unnecessary component. -
Ship Model Restoration
Jaager replied to Old Coasty's topic in Painting, finishing and weathering products and techniques
Running rigging - moves, functions, is subject to stress, wears out and is replaced in actual vessels. Unless it was a denovo rigging, I doubt that the running rigging of most any vessel matched, so as long as your replacement is within the range of colors reported it should be fine. Look to wood or fabric dyes for any color additions. Using tea or similar substances adds an acidic component which can age and oxidize the fibers at an accelerated rate. If the white paint does not clean with ammonia or dilute Dawn (then rinsed off) - you may consider that it is possible that the paint itself has discolored with age. As far as the varnish flaking off: I am thinking - Properly prepped (first coat diluted shellac or dilute oil (Tung, boiled Linseed, Walnut, Danish) it may darken but it should not flake. You might consider removing what is there and redoing it properly. -
Ship Model Restoration
Jaager replied to Old Coasty's topic in Painting, finishing and weathering products and techniques
Rather than using saliva, would not distilled water be a better choice? Saliva is certainly not residue free. Among other components, it contains digestive enzymes. Tap water contains minerals. The water I had in central Kentucky could have had enough calcium to prevent Osteoporosis all by itself. Given the age, the clear finish could be shellac, which will form a white layer if it contacts water, or a varnish which is a mixture of an oil (like boiled Linseed) and shellac which is not water sensitive. An alcohol ( Methanol, Ethanol, or Isopropanol ) will remove shellac. Mineral spirits or turpentine may remove varnish. The painted surface may respond to non-sudsy dye free Ammonia cleaner. -
POF- Plank on Frame actually uses fairly small individual components. The goal is to simulate prototype construction in scale. The largest pieces tend to be made up of subunits (keel, stem, frames) . There are many books and articles (some original, some secondary sources) showing how this was done. POB - Plank on Bulkhead ( actually plank on mold as in the wooden ship era, only Chinese ships had actual bulkheads ) the molds are large - usually plywood - everything else is pretty much the same as POF. If you wish to scratch build in POB style, you could make your molds from the Oak - either straight out pieces, or band saw veneer slices and laminate alternate grain layers to make your own plywood. The building style that uses large pieces of wood is Solid Hull. An Oak solid hull would be strong. But man! - the work in carving Oak instead of White Pine or Basswood/Linden....
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2 x 6 billets should be just fine and should be dry in 2 years. You can get a low end moisture meter (4 pin) from Amazon for under $20, if you wish to be sure. 1/4 inch scale is 1:48. 6 inches x 48 = 288 inches or 24 feet at high end scale. Much longer than that would be a lot of work to handle in a shipyard. The way I imagine it: when really long , large trees were available, the saws were human powered. When steam or water powered saws were developed, the big trees were long gone. So, a 12 inch long billet would yield a 48 foot long board for a high end (museum) scale model. At this scale, a model tends to be 3-5 feet long, which is OK if you live in a mansion. The longest stock I store is 16 inches. Not too heavy, not too long to saw, band or table, with no help. As for the Oak itself, except for the scale of the grain and the pores, the other characteristics (hardness, tight grain, etc) are excellent for model use. It is certainly hard enough to make it difficult to over do a single cut using chisels, files, knives, sanders, etc. You will not be scroll cutting at a rapid rate either. Before you start on a model, I advise you to get some Apple, Pear, Maple, Birch, Beach (if you were in North America, I would add Black Cherry, Hard Maple, Yellow Poplar) and cut it and compare to Oak - think of the scale effect.
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Jay, I was looking at your 2nd example and envisioning the top middle block as being an epoxyed Cool Block to reduce friction, instead of what looks like Ebony. The color is close to Cool Block color.
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