Jaager

Rick,
This may have been Fate handing you a small mercy, and a choice to take a kinder path.  I have a recollection of reading that far more SOS kits may reside at the back of closet selves than ever see completion.  Building the original helped trigger a revolution.  The ship is a first rate liner.  It had more sculptures than a lot of museums.  A sail flagship is a formidable challenge no matter how many models in the experience bank of the model shipwright.   The salesmen weave a fantastic illusion of what you can have on your fireplace mantle,  and try to trigger an impulse buy.   It is not dropping a beginning swimmer into the deep end, it is dropping him into a storm tossed ocean with rip currents and whorl pools.   Consider a project with a higher probability of completion to begin.  Lots of advise here on what may be a good choice.  Then, when you are ready,  given where you are, maybe scratch build a model of Otway Burns' Snap Dragon.  Then, if truly mad, the 74gun USS North Carolina.       

Rick,
This may have been Fate handing you a small mercy, and a choice to take a kinder path.  I have a recollection of reading that far more SOS kits may reside at the back of closet selves than ever see completion.  Building the original helped trigger a revolution.  The ship is a first rate liner.  It had more sculptures than a lot of museums.  A sail flagship is a formidable challenge no matter how many models in the experience bank of the model shipwright.   The salesmen weave a fantastic illusion of what you can have on your fireplace mantle,  and try to trigger an impulse buy.   It is not dropping a beginning swimmer into the deep end, it is dropping him into a storm tossed ocean with rip currents and whorl pools.   Consider a project with a higher probability of completion to begin.  Lots of advise here on what may be a good choice.  Then, when you are ready,  given where you are, maybe scratch build a model of Otway Burns' Snap Dragon.  Then, if truly mad, the 74gun USS North Carolina.       

The sliding part is my conjecture.  Whole moulding tends produce hulls with a generally similar conformation.  Were I a designer at the time and was interested in producing something faster or more stable,
doing the experiment of moving the fore and aft design stations and observing the effect.  would only involve erasing lines that were a failure.  Granted - the vellum was probably expensive and doing a lot of handling of elemental lead was gradually making the draftsman dumber.
 
I have done a very preliminary lofting  of the 7P IV  ,  the big one that followed the famous 7P,   compared to English and French contemporaries there is a long section in the middle where the shape does not change.  It seems that more than a few 17th C Dutch plans available to us replicate the mid ship bend a bit more than those of other countries. It reminds me of a barge with a long sculpted  bow and stern  as opposed to the oft duplicated illustration of a fish superimposed on the profile of a race galleon - an attempt at streamlining?  Where change is constant.  Home waters that are a bit shallow -  a deeper wedge shaped hull would sort of not work out too well? 

It is not the design aspect that is my interest.  It is something a lot more mundane. 
It is the mold loft product and what it actually was.  I think the present description is
true for very late 19th C thru early 20th C.   It was probably heavily influenced by what was
necessary for iron and steel.  Materials that require much more precision and engineering, than does wood.. 
After 30-40 years of the dominance of iron,  I think a short lived fad for large wooden hulls took hold and
those workers and architects who were back to building larger wooden hulls had probably been filtered thru
the 'new, modern' iron techniques and applied that to wood.
 
At the beginning - the era of van Yk - starting with 4 lofted bends and all the other timber shaping done by eye on the ways,
it was probably a long evolution until every timber was shaped using a pattern from the mold loft. I doubt that
even by 1860,  that degree of pre engineering was at all common.  I suspect that the replacement of wood with iron for the larger hulls
produced a situation where those with the necessary skills and experience to eyeball the needed wood cuts aged out and they did not
pass on what they did to enough workers to support a large industry. 
 
Our practice of lofting every frame timber is a copy of what was done around 1900,  but not the replication of actual practice before 1860 that we pretend it is.
 

You could start your new log with:  "for the steps preceding this point, see this log" and place a link to it.

You could start your new log with:  "for the steps preceding this point, see this log" and place a link to it.

This is switching to a new lens with a broader view:
 
MicroMark is a US agent for a line of DC powered tools from Kaleas Minitool , a German company.
In the US marketed as the Micro-Make brand. 
One of the tools is a  MicroLux® Heavy-Duty Right Angle Disk Sander / Drill.  The  power of the sander is greater than one would expect.
There is a 3-jaw chuck for it, for drill bits, I have not tried that function.  The tool is a box instead of a rod in shape.
Certainly not inexpensive,  it requires saving a lot of box tops.  It is about the best power tool that I have found for sanding inside a POF hull.
 
If you are drilling inside a hull and the bit size is #60 or smaller,  there are a lot of inexpensive DC motors - small to very small and some have 3-jaw chucks - mini chucks.
AliExpress - a Chinese agent for a bunch of their mfg - has a lot of choices for motors.   I have not needed  anything from there since the trade war began - no idea about its effect.
Marlin P. Jones is a US supplier of small DC motors and a very useful =  selectable output DC bench power supply for under $20 - the range is six levels from 3V to 12V.
This is an easy way to control the speed.  The motors are small enough that if you can get your hand in, it will work.  The small gage of the power wires - they do not get in the way.

Jolly,
If you have any ambition to go to scratch building,  get as much and more of what Haiko is offering as you can even unrealistically handle..  Work a deal and use specie even.
This is especially true if  what is being offered is 4x4 or 8x4 (or your domestic equivalent of those dimensions).  If your living situation is limited,  long term rent a small storage unit.
Debark,  seal all cut ends ( surplus house latex paint will do if gobbed on super thick - a piece of Bounty will do for a brush) - sticker between pieces.  Find a storage unit location
that is not prone to termite or carpenter ant invasion.  Maybe spread Borax fabric softener on the floor - kills roaches - maybe other beasties react against it too - study up.
There is also a local species of Buxus there, see if you can get a bunch, a big bunch.  
If you do come over to the dark side,  you will probably always regret it if you miss this.  Think Scrooge McDuck in his vault of gold or Smaug in his.     
Get with your fellow countrymen who share this interest and pool your efforts.
 
Let me add some of my perspective on this.  I come at this from POF in the 1:48 to 1:60 range of scales.  It is difficult to grasp just how much wood it takes to fully frame a ship at these scales. 
An impressive amount winds up as saw dust.  Tackling a liner will give you a real appreciation for the stress on the treasurer who had to come up with the money to pay for a real one or the sawyer who had to obliterate a forest to supply the wood needed. 

This is switching to a new lens with a broader view:
 
MicroMark is a US agent for a line of DC powered tools from Kaleas Minitool , a German company.
In the US marketed as the Micro-Make brand. 
One of the tools is a  MicroLux® Heavy-Duty Right Angle Disk Sander / Drill.  The  power of the sander is greater than one would expect.
There is a 3-jaw chuck for it, for drill bits, I have not tried that function.  The tool is a box instead of a rod in shape.
Certainly not inexpensive,  it requires saving a lot of box tops.  It is about the best power tool that I have found for sanding inside a POF hull.
 
If you are drilling inside a hull and the bit size is #60 or smaller,  there are a lot of inexpensive DC motors - small to very small and some have 3-jaw chucks - mini chucks.
AliExpress - a Chinese agent for a bunch of their mfg - has a lot of choices for motors.   I have not needed  anything from there since the trade war began - no idea about its effect.
Marlin P. Jones is a US supplier of small DC motors and a very useful =  selectable output DC bench power supply for under $20 - the range is six levels from 3V to 12V.
This is an easy way to control the speed.  The motors are small enough that if you can get your hand in, it will work.  The small gage of the power wires - they do not get in the way.

This is switching to a new lens with a broader view:
 
MicroMark is a US agent for a line of DC powered tools from Kaleas Minitool , a German company.
In the US marketed as the Micro-Make brand. 
One of the tools is a  MicroLux® Heavy-Duty Right Angle Disk Sander / Drill.  The  power of the sander is greater than one would expect.
There is a 3-jaw chuck for it, for drill bits, I have not tried that function.  The tool is a box instead of a rod in shape.
Certainly not inexpensive,  it requires saving a lot of box tops.  It is about the best power tool that I have found for sanding inside a POF hull.
 
If you are drilling inside a hull and the bit size is #60 or smaller,  there are a lot of inexpensive DC motors - small to very small and some have 3-jaw chucks - mini chucks.
AliExpress - a Chinese agent for a bunch of their mfg - has a lot of choices for motors.   I have not needed  anything from there since the trade war began - no idea about its effect.
Marlin P. Jones is a US supplier of small DC motors and a very useful =  selectable output DC bench power supply for under $20 - the range is six levels from 3V to 12V.
This is an easy way to control the speed.  The motors are small enough that if you can get your hand in, it will work.  The small gage of the power wires - they do not get in the way.

I think that the method used to cut the veneer is an important factor.
If it was rotary cut - a long blade and a BIG lathe, ( efficient and no waste to kerf )  the grain pattern is not natural and it wants to curl.
If it is sliced off on a vertical or horizontal plane - a band saw, (they probably lost more to kerf than they got as wood if it is thin)  different patterns can present.  Those who use large veneer pieces are generally looking for characteristics that are the opposite of what we want.  They want "figured" and "interesting" while we want dull and boring.
You want to look at each piece and decide what you want to show.  If it is to be painted, the grain pattern does not matter,  just how much it wants to curl.

Mark,
You are using this particular plywood because it plays nice with your laser ?
Why not produce duplicates or triplicates of each mold and glue laminate them on the outboard side of each master?
It will increase the strength and give a better land for the planking.  The down side is more work rasping the bevel.
 
Dean

Mark,
I did not notice until your replacement molds made it obvious,  Belle was a bit of an out layer. The degree of hollow at the bow is more than Sea Witch even and Griffiths was heavily criticized for designing that.  I wonder why Belle did not set a trend?
Dean
 

Mark,
I did not notice until your replacement molds made it obvious,  Belle was a bit of an out layer. The degree of hollow at the bow is more than Sea Witch even and Griffiths was heavily criticized for designing that.  I wonder why Belle did not set a trend?
Dean
 

Mark,
I did not notice until your replacement molds made it obvious,  Belle was a bit of an out layer. The degree of hollow at the bow is more than Sea Witch even and Griffiths was heavily criticized for designing that.  I wonder why Belle did not set a trend?
Dean
 

Jolly,
If you have any ambition to go to scratch building,  get as much and more of what Haiko is offering as you can even unrealistically handle..  Work a deal and use specie even.
This is especially true if  what is being offered is 4x4 or 8x4 (or your domestic equivalent of those dimensions).  If your living situation is limited,  long term rent a small storage unit.
Debark,  seal all cut ends ( surplus house latex paint will do if gobbed on super thick - a piece of Bounty will do for a brush) - sticker between pieces.  Find a storage unit location
that is not prone to termite or carpenter ant invasion.  Maybe spread Borax fabric softener on the floor - kills roaches - maybe other beasties react against it too - study up.
There is also a local species of Buxus there, see if you can get a bunch, a big bunch.  
If you do come over to the dark side,  you will probably always regret it if you miss this.  Think Scrooge McDuck in his vault of gold or Smaug in his.     
Get with your fellow countrymen who share this interest and pool your efforts.
 
Let me add some of my perspective on this.  I come at this from POF in the 1:48 to 1:60 range of scales.  It is difficult to grasp just how much wood it takes to fully frame a ship at these scales. 
An impressive amount winds up as saw dust.  Tackling a liner will give you a real appreciation for the stress on the treasurer who had to come up with the money to pay for a real one or the sawyer who had to obliterate a forest to supply the wood needed. 

Jolly,
If you have any ambition to go to scratch building,  get as much and more of what Haiko is offering as you can even unrealistically handle..  Work a deal and use specie even.
This is especially true if  what is being offered is 4x4 or 8x4 (or your domestic equivalent of those dimensions).  If your living situation is limited,  long term rent a small storage unit.
Debark,  seal all cut ends ( surplus house latex paint will do if gobbed on super thick - a piece of Bounty will do for a brush) - sticker between pieces.  Find a storage unit location
that is not prone to termite or carpenter ant invasion.  Maybe spread Borax fabric softener on the floor - kills roaches - maybe other beasties react against it too - study up.
There is also a local species of Buxus there, see if you can get a bunch, a big bunch.  
If you do come over to the dark side,  you will probably always regret it if you miss this.  Think Scrooge McDuck in his vault of gold or Smaug in his.     
Get with your fellow countrymen who share this interest and pool your efforts.
 
Let me add some of my perspective on this.  I come at this from POF in the 1:48 to 1:60 range of scales.  It is difficult to grasp just how much wood it takes to fully frame a ship at these scales. 
An impressive amount winds up as saw dust.  Tackling a liner will give you a real appreciation for the stress on the treasurer who had to come up with the money to pay for a real one or the sawyer who had to obliterate a forest to supply the wood needed. 

Ab,
I am not suggesting that actual frames would slide.  Deane constructed about 4 design cross sections, the dimensions of their arcs were determined by various lines drawn on the initial profile - OK,  their position determined their shape - so no sliding.   It just seems to me that by later "adjusting" their location, interesting effects would be seen in the shape of the hull.  I guess as long as the accepted rules were followed for design, a dud would not end a career.  Take an off the wall chance on a design and if that is a dud, it would on to sweeping out a stable for  a living.
 
I see from the NMM plans that the RN seemed to be obsessed with using the top timbers to frame the sides of the ports.  There are some labor intensive jogs drawn on some.  I think the Dutch were in the decided majority in placing the ports where they wanted them irrespective of where the top timbers were.  The majority seemed to have more wood higher up, so weakness was less of a problem - just add more wood to the other side of the timber. .  The RN seems to have been rather spare with framing in the upper works.   ---- if you plank everything above the LWL in and out on a model, it does not matter anyway.  I make it a solid wall of framing up there.  It locks the frames in position and turns a fragile area into a strong one.
 

It is not the design aspect that is my interest.  It is something a lot more mundane. 
It is the mold loft product and what it actually was.  I think the present description is
true for very late 19th C thru early 20th C.   It was probably heavily influenced by what was
necessary for iron and steel.  Materials that require much more precision and engineering, than does wood.. 
After 30-40 years of the dominance of iron,  I think a short lived fad for large wooden hulls took hold and
those workers and architects who were back to building larger wooden hulls had probably been filtered thru
the 'new, modern' iron techniques and applied that to wood.
 
At the beginning - the era of van Yk - starting with 4 lofted bends and all the other timber shaping done by eye on the ways,
it was probably a long evolution until every timber was shaped using a pattern from the mold loft. I doubt that
even by 1860,  that degree of pre engineering was at all common.  I suspect that the replacement of wood with iron for the larger hulls
produced a situation where those with the necessary skills and experience to eyeball the needed wood cuts aged out and they did not
pass on what they did to enough workers to support a large industry. 
 
Our practice of lofting every frame timber is a copy of what was done around 1900,  but not the replication of actual practice before 1860 that we pretend it is.
 

For almost all the parts on a plan that we will make,  the size of a particular unit that we work with will fit on a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper.   It is satisfying to have the whole on a single sheet, but it is not necessary.
My point is that  a home copy/print computer accessory can do the job  at a practical level.
For the cost of a  couple of $30 copies, you can almost buy a scanner/printer.   The ink is so expensive that the printer can almost be a free item and they still make out like bandits.
Just be alert to the "adjustment"  in scale that each scanner "adds".  The "return to 1:1" factor  is constant for a specific machine, but different between machines.
Using a pantograph  now is pointless punishment.
 

Ab,
Thank you.  
A feud between two powerful shipbuilders each with an epic stubborn streak - perhaps a script writers explanation.
 
Pieces are coming together for me on the evolution of west European Atlantic coast building methods.   The method describer by van YK 
differs from the English et al. frame first method by not all that much.  For this initial frame first method, no plans are needed
if the key individual can "see" them in his mind.  It is a result of being born a genius.  It can't be taught, the in your mind part,
but if lesser followers in other countries like this method and its more predictable results, they can learn to do on paper, what the first guy did in his head.
While back home,  the rules of the first guy are used. 
 
Dean

Ab,
Some of the old illustrations and ones that you have used, show the erection of about 3 to 5 bends along the keel  that affect and maybe effect the exact shape the shell takes.  
Was this a part of the shell first method or the alternative one?
 
Dean

Ab,
Some of the old illustrations and ones that you have used, show the erection of about 3 to 5 bends along the keel  that affect and maybe effect the exact shape the shell takes.  
Was this a part of the shell first method or the alternative one?
 
Dean

Ab,
Thank you.  
A feud between two powerful shipbuilders each with an epic stubborn streak - perhaps a script writers explanation.
 
Pieces are coming together for me on the evolution of west European Atlantic coast building methods.   The method describer by van YK 
differs from the English et al. frame first method by not all that much.  For this initial frame first method, no plans are needed
if the key individual can "see" them in his mind.  It is a result of being born a genius.  It can't be taught, the in your mind part,
but if lesser followers in other countries like this method and its more predictable results, they can learn to do on paper, what the first guy did in his head.
While back home,  the rules of the first guy are used. 
 
Dean

Generous thought, bad idea.
The commercial guys use kilns and fumigation and probably other methods to keep from exporting diseases and insects along with the wood.
The amateur export world has gained us Starlings, Japanese Beatles, Dutch Elm disease, Fire Ants, to name a few.  If your guys are still sloppy about what comes in,
I would not bet on their being any more careful about what goes out.  The wood that you offer is from wide spread agricultural species.  If you have something indigenous that is 
kept in check by your eco system,  letting it out in this way could lead to a real disaster.  This is a realm best left to professionals.