chris watton
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Everything posted by chris watton
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I actually started off by buying and using the plans from the full size Greek trireme. However, after buying more resource material, I quickly realised that if I were to follow the trireme plans, I would be designing a ship that would be the equivalent of using a set of medieval cog plans as the basis to build a late 18th Century ship of the line! There is almost 500 years difference in age. The more I read, the more I realised just how much these vessels changed, much of it via battle experience. The Quinqueremes at the beginning of the 1st Century AD were the equivalents of the ship of the line, and quite large and built for both offensive and defensive duties (although with the Romans, usually offensive...) - but once Rome conquered the Mediterranean, such large vessels became obsolete (as there were no more real enemies to fight) and only smaller vessels were usually built. I thought it would be good to try and design this type as it represents a Roman warship at its absolute prime, and wouldn't have looked out of place at the battle of Actium. -
Thank you! I only design them that way because I want an easy ride, too, when I have to build the prototypes!
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The drawings are not mine to fully publish. Amati own them as they paid me for the designs. It would be very unprofessional and reckless in the extreme to publish them without the permission of the owners - and there would be nothing to stop unscrupulous people copying them and then calling them their own.
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Cheers I added another pic. All of the curved parts are laser cut - I wouldn't like to try and bend planks to such a curve, and I certainly wouldn't think other modellers would, too - so the front and back is very easy to assemble, as is the main hull sides with the outriggers and oar ports - all pre cut. All of the panels are, too (including the inner and outer bulwarks), so no need to cut and glue lots of thin strip.. The only skills involved are very basic, planking the lower hull with lime strips and then going over the rest with 1x5mm walnut strips - you don't have to paint it, but if you're crap at planking like me, it looks better painted.... I have added a boarding platform at the front, as the cumbersome 'corvus' was used only for a very short length of time during the first Punic wars - where it was found that the centre of gravity was heavily compromised and many ships were lost because of this - it seems a more sensible 'boarding-bridge' was used, instead.
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I will ask Amati when I can 'slot' this one in (have got three developments on the go right now..) - it is frustrating for me, as it happens to be my all time favourite ship - I love the lines and curves, and it's not half as 'gaudy' as SOTS - and it has a great history. Just checked my design files - I re did them in 2011, to more or less the same designs as Victory and Bellona, with lower, middle and upper gun decks - and gun port positions that slot into the bulkheads, rather than the old and flawed ply gun port patterns.
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Hi Nigel, I actually used the lines taken directly off the original dockyard model - I think these are about as accurate as we're going to get for the Prince. I then used all of the Van De Velde drawings that exist for most of the outer detail and parts which conflicted slightly with the original model (which was probably made before the actual vessel was launched, by which time a few changes were probably made - like the small protruding gallery at the stern) I re designed from the original about 10 years ago, and that is what the model above is based - but a couple of years ago, I re designed it again to take into account newer techniques I use now - I am just waiting for these new designs to be cut for me.
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A new version of the Amati Prince will be released one day... Just need Amati to cut my new designs.....
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Right, these have just taken ages to type in, as I can't cut and paste.... Latest pics of progress, all the deck stuff is dry fitted and needs more work before gluing in place....
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I don't see why not. Just email them. (I haven't got any, being almost 1000 miles away and in another country..)
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Thanks, guys Yes, the Vanguard kit could be modified for Bellona, they are both virtually identical in shape and size - the only real differences being superficial, and therefore easily changed. I thought all of the cast stern decoration for Vanguard, Bellerophon and Elephant were now changed to resin! @Fam - very interesting post, thank you ETA - just tried linking some pics of Roman galley, but still won't let me, and I haven't time to type in the whole address manually...
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I wouldn't mind doing a Roman merchant vessel in the future, as they seem to be a more conventional hull form.
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It is fun and quite rewarding, as you learn a lot more than normal. I think that every model you see from this era is based on 'guess work', but it is educated guess work by interpreting the sources used. Hell, no one really knows and debate still rages about what the Mary Rose really looked like at the time of her capsizing, and that's over a millennium and a half after the Roman Quinquireme - we even have to make educated guesses for some of the decoration used on ships from only 2 centuries ago! So for the Roman ship, I had to rely solely on experts' interpretation of the sources regarding the vessels' likely appearance, taking into account the era, the armament carried, length/breadth rations, rowers and oar configurations - and of course, we still have Roman art and iconography that show these vessels. I could of course just have copied the lines from other kits and 'beef up' the designs, but that's not really what I do - at least doing my own research, I am unlikely to copy (possible) mistakes made by others. I have always preferred to start completely from scratch using my own methods and am not at all interested in how other's do it - and I hope this shows with the stuff I do.
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I can't really say too much about this particular development at this stage, but I don't think it's going to replace the Greek warship - this new one is much later, about 4-450 years later and much larger. (180 oars in all) and designed for both long and short range warfare, with a plethora of PE decoration in keeping with its capital ship status. The existing 1:1 trireme plans weren't much use, to be honest, not after researching the differences, so I started completely from scratch, which is a first for me - having to make my own line drawings before even starting the designs.
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Just over a metre for the hull at 48th scale.
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Lots and lots of research, buying many (expensive) books on the subject and then essentially starting from scratch, based on the research I did. There are no line drawings for this type of vessel so I had to make up my own before even starting the designs. (based on dimensions/length to width ratios etc.). I did secure a full set of plans from the Trireme Trust, but to be honest, they were next to useless for the type of vessel I had in mind - a late Republic capital ship that perhaps Agrippa would recognise.
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Just for you - this is the pre-prototype:
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Cheers TBH, Most of my work has still been on Victory, with the Roman ship on evenings and weekends, to try and not slow anything down.
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Can't really say at this point, but I can say there's a lot of pre cut parts, eliminating any need to pull one's hair out...
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OK, just completed final designs for the Roman warship (cut files and PE files), which includes 4 x Ballista's and 1 x Onager - all now emailed and sent off to be made for me. I can now continue with Victory.
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Yes, plans and instructions, and sorting through the hundreds of construction pics. Designing and building the prototype is only half the job when developing a kit - as much time again, sometimes even more time, is spent trying to ensure that people can build the model by way of text, pictures and line drawings.
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Hi amfibius, I don't think I really started the prototype of Victory before the 'great crash', so all the photos I posted are on this thread. I am working on Victory (and Roman warship) right now, so I am not sure when Victory will be released yet. Cheers, Chris
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Fantastic model, and fantastic attention to detail. Threads like this are an inspiration to us all, I think. Well done!
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Yep, definite quoting and linking issues with IE11, also can't post links to pictures from my Webshots account too! I can quote if I click 'quote' to open in another tab, but if I simply click 'quote', I get nothing! Oh, the weight for the Victory is pure speculation on my part, I know the actual model weighs about 8kg, so if that's doubled, that should be more or less the weight of the kit - I know that the Vanguard plans and instructions alone weighed more than a complete Lady nelson kit!
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Hiya! I am OK, thank you. Just been busy doing boring research and designing the Roman Quinquireme (not easy as most drawings available are speculation, and there are no lines, which I had to produce myself...). It is 48th scale, giving a length of just over a metre - 32nd scale would have been just too huge. I had the first prototype cut files arrive over Christmas, for the hull and am now building it up, making changes as I do. Also been plodding on with Victory stuff...
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No - I started the designs for that model in 2001, and it was to be 72nd from the off. At the time, I thought that 64th scale would have been too large for most - nothing whatsoever to do with the carriers. Also, the parts are split (keel split into two, like most of our new models), along with decks, so length of finished models bares no relation to box size. Vanguard is about 14kg, I imagine Victory to be around the 18kg mark. The extra decks in Victory probably equate to an extra 30mm thickness is materials in the box. There is lots more photo etching, but again, how thick is each sheet? (Although the 102 full length cannon barrels may add a kg....)
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