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Beef Wellington reacted to Blue Ensign in HMS Sphinx 1775 by Hollowneck - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64
A fascinating process Ron, I will follow with great interest.
B.E.
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Beef Wellington reacted to druxey in HMS Sphinx 1775 by Hollowneck - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64
Well photographed and well described!
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Beef Wellington reacted to glbarlow in HMS Sphinx 1775 by Hollowneck - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64
Very interesting watching "water" come to life. Your thorough descriptions will definitely help the next guy do it and no doubt encourage more to try. Well done!
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Beef Wellington reacted to toms10 in HMS Sphinx 1775 by Hollowneck - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64
Ron
your detailed description of the process is making me want to do a diorama for my next build. Excellent work and thank you for taking the time to photograph and describe the process. Your build log brings build logs to a new level.
Thank you
Tom
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Beef Wellington reacted to hollowneck in HMS Sphinx 1775 by Hollowneck - FINISHED - Vanguard Models - 1:64
The Water Puzzle continues.
Rolling along Camilla's port side, another tapered foam wedge supports three raised wave sections. All the ShaperSheet pieces are cut with heavy-duty scissors; an X-acto knife won't cut the stuff.
A few wave sections remain. Working around my completed model while it's in the diorama's cutout isn't too difficult but I needed to be careful while handling the larger sections of the ShaperSheet material.
All of the wave sections have been cut and formed and are securely glued-in around the case's perimeter as well as all along Camilla's full hull. She can be easily lifted out of the setting and is not yet secured to her sea.
A detail of the tricky stern wave sections shown here. Smaller ShaperSheet pieces were cut and had to align precisely so subsequent "wake" making steps would be easier to execute. The locating marks help when executing the final glue process. All the black Sharpie marks will disappear in the next stage.
Time for a water making break: neat. No water, no rocks. Best enjoyed with a good friend or partner, but still acceptable as a solo toast to an involved, multistep process that's gotten to about the halfway mark for the water surface of the complete diorama.
A view from the port stern. Note the gap along her hull. This was subsequently filled with another wave piece.
The completed port bow wave action.
and ...the completed bow waves.
The blue masking tape has been affixed to the full perimeter of the wood case to protect its edges during the next step of cladding/surfacing the synthesized waves.
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Obormotov in HMS Spartiate by Admiral Beez - Heller - 1/150 - PLASTIC - kit-bashing the Heller Le Superbe
Hi Beez, think your toned down stern is much more in keeping. You're making great progress.
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Timmo in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from DaveBaxt in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
Great result on the binnacle, and love those close in deck shots which really show the scale and detail authenticity. BTW, love your statement "Everything I attempt is taking a lot longer than envisaged."...can certainly relate!
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from robdurant in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
Great result on the binnacle, and love those close in deck shots which really show the scale and detail authenticity. BTW, love your statement "Everything I attempt is taking a lot longer than envisaged."...can certainly relate!
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Knocklouder in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
Very much enjoyed catching up on your progress David. If only progress could be as speedy as reading a build log. Great to see some of the techniques you're using, and I totally agree the carronades need some serious TLC, yours came out very nice.
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Dave_E in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
Great result on the binnacle, and love those close in deck shots which really show the scale and detail authenticity. BTW, love your statement "Everything I attempt is taking a lot longer than envisaged."...can certainly relate!
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Beef Wellington reacted to DavidEN in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
The work on the quarterdeck continues. I have come to realise that there are no easy wins when it comes to the quarterdeck. Everything I attempt is taking a lot longer than envisaged.
I decided that I should have a binnacle. There is not one included in the kit but I noticed that most of the other builders include this item and I think it will be a good addition to the quarterdeck. The Vanguard mini kit seems to be the default position but I do not have the patience to wait for the postal service. It is a fairly simple box so I should be able to knock one of those out in an afternoon (this did not happen).
I started out with a rough drawing to get the overall dimensions. I based the design on the Victory binnacle but made it slightly larger to give me a fighting chance. I formed the basic carcass out of two pieces of 5mm thick walnut that I glued together. I milled out a 0.38mm deep reveal to accept the glazing. I then added 1x1mm styrene frames and painted the inside of the cabinet white.
I decided that I would have to include a ship's compass and lantern as there is a possibility that these would be visible through the glazing if I managed to keep the acetate clear of glue, which would be a first. For the compass I ran some 4mm diameter brass rod through the lathe and cut some notional detail to try and make it compass like. I added a splash of white paint to the top to imitate the face. I made several of these gradually reducing their height. I should have gone down another 0.6mm but I was fed up at this stage.
The lamp was a lot fiddlier. I milled a slot on four sides of a 4mm diameter brass tube with the remaining material forming the lamp structure. I could have done this a lot more accurately if I could have roused myself to set up the dividing attachment but I was too lazy and just tried to eyeball it once again proving how wonky my eyes are. I was not too fussed as it will be barely discernible on the final model. This is also the reason I couldn't be bothered tidying up the edges. For the lamp glass I somewhat wastefully lathed a 10mm diameter acrylic rod down to a 3mm diameter and then inserted it into the cage. The capping piece was just freehand lathe work on the 4mm diameter brass rod.
Once my ropey looking equipment was installed in the case it was time to start adding some detail to make it look more cabinet like. I used 1.0 x 0.38mm styrene strips to form the mouldings and mullion caps. I added some panels to the 3 divisions of the lower casework and some dummy drawers on the backside using thin styrene with pin nail heads for handles. Just two drawers as a centre drawer would clash with the vent pipe. The glazing was acetate with the centre panel behind the lamp facing the wheel blanked out. I read somewhere, I think in Lavery, that this was the preferred detail to avoid dazzling the helmsman and prevent him steering the ship onto the rocks.
The top was cut out of 1mm thick maple with a weak attempt at an edge moulding using a scraper. I have yet to master the correct technique for using the scraper and tend to end up with quite a rough edge. The chimney was constructed out of 1.5mm diameter brass tube with the top cap and bottom collar lathed out of 3.5mm diameter brass rod. These are slippery little suckers and I lost a couple of them to excessive tweezer force never to be seen again. Ringbolts were added to the sides for the tie-down ropes. 1x1mm walnut formed the legs followed by a coat of admiralty red and it was more or less done. I will install it properly later on in the build as it will just get knocked over at this point.
Quite a longwinded post for such an insignificant item but it involved a lot more steps than I was anticipating. I am glad to report that you can glimpse the navigational equipment through the acetate so I do not feel like such an idiot for attempting to include it in the first place but rather remorseful that I did not do at bit more research and base them on historical examples but I was just after something shiny in a case.
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from dunnock in HMS Diana by DavidEN - Caldercraft - 1:64
Nice results there David, looking great. Just curious whether you looked at and compared the 'aftermarket' pins provided by Caldercraft, they are much slimmer and proportional that those provided in the earlier kits. I doff my cap to you as well for making 60 of those things!
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from bruce d in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from CiscoH in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from hollowneck in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from JesseLee in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from BenD in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Gahm in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Quick update - even though I've been gathering the info above for some time, immediately after making this post I stumbled across another plan that I had not seen before. (Available at Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (rmg.co.uk) ). Thankfully this supports the thinking outlined above, but makes me happily retract the statement that there are no plans of the Artois class reflecting the 1793 Admiralty order for 4 quarterdeck carronades. Unfortunately I can't find a high resolution version to be able to read the text, but this planking expansion clearly shows the 2 carronade port alignment. Fortunately, the approach I've taken described above has been validated and I can continue with a clean(er) conscience.
Of interest to other Artois builders, this adds yet another option for the bulwarks showing a fully built up bow, and squared profile of the quaterdeck not commonly seen.
Ship plan of HMS 'Diana' (1794): expansion of outboard works (NMM J5533)
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Beef Wellington reacted to Admiral Beez in HMS Spartiate by Admiral Beez - Heller - 1/150 - PLASTIC - kit-bashing the Heller Le Superbe
Stern gallery now in place. Of course these Heller instructions are rubbish, and made no mention to first install the two stern chaser 32 pounders, so now I’ll have to shave the carriages so I can fit the guns through the ports. Lesson once again is to read four or five steps ahead and to always ask what Heller omitted.
The stern gallery needs more work, including filling joints and sharpening up painted lines and decorations. My painting skills still need improvement. The upper deck and poop deck are just temporarily placed for planning purposes. I’ve also reinstalled the rudder.
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from hollowneck in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Thoughts and conjectures on 'Jason's' (and Artois class frigate) armament and bulwark configuration:
Currently knee deep trying to think through a number of problems making sharing photos at this stage a little premature. I have however reached a stage where certain decisions are required, specifically the armament bulwark gunport/carronade configuration. I very much enjoy seeing other builders' thoughts and decisions on how to build their Artois class frigate, Diana or otherwise, and at the risk of putting people to sleep I'm summarizing my thoughts below. As has been commented many times, much is unknown leaving a lot to builders' discretion, but I think the available evidence suggests that these options can be. Without either the builders or ships logs to shed more light, much will remain conjecture. My goal was to arrive at the most likely (IMHO) scenario for 'Jason' when she was launched, but also not let this get in the way of the model I want to build. (Recognizing of course that certain anachronisms will persist, for example copper plates, armament etc. would not be present at launch). My intent is not to spark debate, but to get my thoughts on paper. 🙂
Chronological timeline of evidence and events:
Date unknown: Various NMM models with no armament, pierced for canons with open quarterdeck bulwarks and multiple design differences discussed fully in AOTS.
1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2383) – open bulwarks with quarterdeck, with more additional exposed quarterdeck timberheads, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
March 1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341) - Open bulwarks, originally reflects, but reflects updates (likely1797?) showing 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
March/April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5552) – Open bulwarks, reflects 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
1st April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J7737) - Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
4th April 1793 (NMM Plan ZAZ2344, NMM Wikimedia Commons J7733) – Framing plan, open bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
12 June 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5549) – Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons, (reflects change for 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports, as well as subsequent adjustments to gunport position – date unknown). Interestingly also shows the mainmast brace bits moved forward adjacent to the barricade which is not reflected in any other sources.
November 1793: Admiralty promulgated Order defines armament: Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade per Admiralty Order, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Likely long nine chase guns), 2 x 24lb Carronade
April 1794: JASON LAUNCHED
November 1794: Admiralty promulgated order to replace 24lb Carronades and carry additional 32lb Carronades at expense of some carriage guns. Quarterdeck: 6 x 9lb’er, 6 x 32lb Carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32lb Carronade
1797 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341)
Closed quarterdeck bulwarks shown on plan per current practice (Details of design or build channel and open bulwark arrangement shown). This plan also indicates the more austere square finish to the quarterdeck bulwark in addition to the more ornate version used in the illustration on the jacket and used as basis for the kit configuration. Interestingly, plan indicates that the Foremast of Jason and Diamond were moved forward 6 ¼ inches. Quarterdeck piercings for 12 carriage guns shown as designed/built together subsequent adjustments for piercings for 6 x carriage guns and 6 x Carronades Aug 1798: JASON WRECKED
December 1799: All upper deck armament to comprise 32lb Carronades per Admiralty Order, with exception of 2 chase guns)
Quarterdeck: 12 x 32lb carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32b Carronade
Decisions and rationale for how to represent ‘Jason’ “as launched”:
Bulwarks: Sufficient historical ambiguity to allow the model maker (me) to feel comfortable that both open or built-up bulwarks are historically viable. This short period of a few years when these ships were built was a time when the preference for 'built up' and 'open' bulwarks switched back and forth. The earlier older design variance of open bulwark with exposed timberheads, while intriguing to model, seems unlikely by 1794. Armament: The admiralty order of November 1793 will be reflected as I believe there would be sufficient time to between issuance and launch for this to be reflected. As such, Jason will be equipped with Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade and fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er and 2 x 24lb Carronade. Gunports: ‘Jason’s’ gunports will be pierced to reflect the armament described above. There are however no (existing) plans that show this configuration (i.e. only 2 quarterdeck carronades per side). In my view, this does not seem problematic: CORRECTED - there is! See post #691 below There was only a 12 month period between the Nov 1793 Admiralty orders to carry 4x24lb quarterdeck carronades, and the Nov 1794 order to carry 6x32lb quarterdeck carronades. Only plans drawn up in this period would reflect this configuration, and given that plans for each member of the class were drawn up pretty extensively in 1793, there doesn’t seem to have been much need to redo. The available plans reflect different things, but it's not definitively known exactly what. Various plans showing the original cannon only configuration show subsequent modifications for the 6 carronade ports, but none show only 4. It seems reasonable that any updates to reflect the 1793 (4) carronade configuration, would likely have been updated again to reflect the 6 carronade configuration after 1794, or just updated to once after 1794. My conclusion therefore is that the absence of a plan showing this configuration does not preclude it. The ports least encumbered by stays were selected, and which are consistent with subsequent carronade layout. Hopefully back to some photo's next update...
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from JesseLee in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Thoughts and conjectures on 'Jason's' (and Artois class frigate) armament and bulwark configuration:
Currently knee deep trying to think through a number of problems making sharing photos at this stage a little premature. I have however reached a stage where certain decisions are required, specifically the armament bulwark gunport/carronade configuration. I very much enjoy seeing other builders' thoughts and decisions on how to build their Artois class frigate, Diana or otherwise, and at the risk of putting people to sleep I'm summarizing my thoughts below. As has been commented many times, much is unknown leaving a lot to builders' discretion, but I think the available evidence suggests that these options can be. Without either the builders or ships logs to shed more light, much will remain conjecture. My goal was to arrive at the most likely (IMHO) scenario for 'Jason' when she was launched, but also not let this get in the way of the model I want to build. (Recognizing of course that certain anachronisms will persist, for example copper plates, armament etc. would not be present at launch). My intent is not to spark debate, but to get my thoughts on paper. 🙂
Chronological timeline of evidence and events:
Date unknown: Various NMM models with no armament, pierced for canons with open quarterdeck bulwarks and multiple design differences discussed fully in AOTS.
1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2383) – open bulwarks with quarterdeck, with more additional exposed quarterdeck timberheads, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
March 1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341) - Open bulwarks, originally reflects, but reflects updates (likely1797?) showing 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
March/April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5552) – Open bulwarks, reflects 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
1st April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J7737) - Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
4th April 1793 (NMM Plan ZAZ2344, NMM Wikimedia Commons J7733) – Framing plan, open bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
12 June 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5549) – Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons, (reflects change for 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports, as well as subsequent adjustments to gunport position – date unknown). Interestingly also shows the mainmast brace bits moved forward adjacent to the barricade which is not reflected in any other sources.
November 1793: Admiralty promulgated Order defines armament: Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade per Admiralty Order, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Likely long nine chase guns), 2 x 24lb Carronade
April 1794: JASON LAUNCHED
November 1794: Admiralty promulgated order to replace 24lb Carronades and carry additional 32lb Carronades at expense of some carriage guns. Quarterdeck: 6 x 9lb’er, 6 x 32lb Carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32lb Carronade
1797 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341)
Closed quarterdeck bulwarks shown on plan per current practice (Details of design or build channel and open bulwark arrangement shown). This plan also indicates the more austere square finish to the quarterdeck bulwark in addition to the more ornate version used in the illustration on the jacket and used as basis for the kit configuration. Interestingly, plan indicates that the Foremast of Jason and Diamond were moved forward 6 ¼ inches. Quarterdeck piercings for 12 carriage guns shown as designed/built together subsequent adjustments for piercings for 6 x carriage guns and 6 x Carronades Aug 1798: JASON WRECKED
December 1799: All upper deck armament to comprise 32lb Carronades per Admiralty Order, with exception of 2 chase guns)
Quarterdeck: 12 x 32lb carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32b Carronade
Decisions and rationale for how to represent ‘Jason’ “as launched”:
Bulwarks: Sufficient historical ambiguity to allow the model maker (me) to feel comfortable that both open or built-up bulwarks are historically viable. This short period of a few years when these ships were built was a time when the preference for 'built up' and 'open' bulwarks switched back and forth. The earlier older design variance of open bulwark with exposed timberheads, while intriguing to model, seems unlikely by 1794. Armament: The admiralty order of November 1793 will be reflected as I believe there would be sufficient time to between issuance and launch for this to be reflected. As such, Jason will be equipped with Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade and fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er and 2 x 24lb Carronade. Gunports: ‘Jason’s’ gunports will be pierced to reflect the armament described above. There are however no (existing) plans that show this configuration (i.e. only 2 quarterdeck carronades per side). In my view, this does not seem problematic: CORRECTED - there is! See post #691 below There was only a 12 month period between the Nov 1793 Admiralty orders to carry 4x24lb quarterdeck carronades, and the Nov 1794 order to carry 6x32lb quarterdeck carronades. Only plans drawn up in this period would reflect this configuration, and given that plans for each member of the class were drawn up pretty extensively in 1793, there doesn’t seem to have been much need to redo. The available plans reflect different things, but it's not definitively known exactly what. Various plans showing the original cannon only configuration show subsequent modifications for the 6 carronade ports, but none show only 4. It seems reasonable that any updates to reflect the 1793 (4) carronade configuration, would likely have been updated again to reflect the 6 carronade configuration after 1794, or just updated to once after 1794. My conclusion therefore is that the absence of a plan showing this configuration does not preclude it. The ports least encumbered by stays were selected, and which are consistent with subsequent carronade layout. Hopefully back to some photo's next update...
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from AJohnson in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Thoughts and conjectures on 'Jason's' (and Artois class frigate) armament and bulwark configuration:
Currently knee deep trying to think through a number of problems making sharing photos at this stage a little premature. I have however reached a stage where certain decisions are required, specifically the armament bulwark gunport/carronade configuration. I very much enjoy seeing other builders' thoughts and decisions on how to build their Artois class frigate, Diana or otherwise, and at the risk of putting people to sleep I'm summarizing my thoughts below. As has been commented many times, much is unknown leaving a lot to builders' discretion, but I think the available evidence suggests that these options can be. Without either the builders or ships logs to shed more light, much will remain conjecture. My goal was to arrive at the most likely (IMHO) scenario for 'Jason' when she was launched, but also not let this get in the way of the model I want to build. (Recognizing of course that certain anachronisms will persist, for example copper plates, armament etc. would not be present at launch). My intent is not to spark debate, but to get my thoughts on paper. 🙂
Chronological timeline of evidence and events:
Date unknown: Various NMM models with no armament, pierced for canons with open quarterdeck bulwarks and multiple design differences discussed fully in AOTS.
1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2383) – open bulwarks with quarterdeck, with more additional exposed quarterdeck timberheads, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
March 1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341) - Open bulwarks, originally reflects, but reflects updates (likely1797?) showing 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
March/April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5552) – Open bulwarks, reflects 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
1st April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J7737) - Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
4th April 1793 (NMM Plan ZAZ2344, NMM Wikimedia Commons J7733) – Framing plan, open bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
12 June 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5549) – Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons, (reflects change for 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports, as well as subsequent adjustments to gunport position – date unknown). Interestingly also shows the mainmast brace bits moved forward adjacent to the barricade which is not reflected in any other sources.
November 1793: Admiralty promulgated Order defines armament: Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade per Admiralty Order, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Likely long nine chase guns), 2 x 24lb Carronade
April 1794: JASON LAUNCHED
November 1794: Admiralty promulgated order to replace 24lb Carronades and carry additional 32lb Carronades at expense of some carriage guns. Quarterdeck: 6 x 9lb’er, 6 x 32lb Carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32lb Carronade
1797 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341)
Closed quarterdeck bulwarks shown on plan per current practice (Details of design or build channel and open bulwark arrangement shown). This plan also indicates the more austere square finish to the quarterdeck bulwark in addition to the more ornate version used in the illustration on the jacket and used as basis for the kit configuration. Interestingly, plan indicates that the Foremast of Jason and Diamond were moved forward 6 ¼ inches. Quarterdeck piercings for 12 carriage guns shown as designed/built together subsequent adjustments for piercings for 6 x carriage guns and 6 x Carronades Aug 1798: JASON WRECKED
December 1799: All upper deck armament to comprise 32lb Carronades per Admiralty Order, with exception of 2 chase guns)
Quarterdeck: 12 x 32lb carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32b Carronade
Decisions and rationale for how to represent ‘Jason’ “as launched”:
Bulwarks: Sufficient historical ambiguity to allow the model maker (me) to feel comfortable that both open or built-up bulwarks are historically viable. This short period of a few years when these ships were built was a time when the preference for 'built up' and 'open' bulwarks switched back and forth. The earlier older design variance of open bulwark with exposed timberheads, while intriguing to model, seems unlikely by 1794. Armament: The admiralty order of November 1793 will be reflected as I believe there would be sufficient time to between issuance and launch for this to be reflected. As such, Jason will be equipped with Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade and fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er and 2 x 24lb Carronade. Gunports: ‘Jason’s’ gunports will be pierced to reflect the armament described above. There are however no (existing) plans that show this configuration (i.e. only 2 quarterdeck carronades per side). In my view, this does not seem problematic: CORRECTED - there is! See post #691 below There was only a 12 month period between the Nov 1793 Admiralty orders to carry 4x24lb quarterdeck carronades, and the Nov 1794 order to carry 6x32lb quarterdeck carronades. Only plans drawn up in this period would reflect this configuration, and given that plans for each member of the class were drawn up pretty extensively in 1793, there doesn’t seem to have been much need to redo. The available plans reflect different things, but it's not definitively known exactly what. Various plans showing the original cannon only configuration show subsequent modifications for the 6 carronade ports, but none show only 4. It seems reasonable that any updates to reflect the 1793 (4) carronade configuration, would likely have been updated again to reflect the 6 carronade configuration after 1794, or just updated to once after 1794. My conclusion therefore is that the absence of a plan showing this configuration does not preclude it. The ports least encumbered by stays were selected, and which are consistent with subsequent carronade layout. Hopefully back to some photo's next update...
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from dunnock in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Thoughts and conjectures on 'Jason's' (and Artois class frigate) armament and bulwark configuration:
Currently knee deep trying to think through a number of problems making sharing photos at this stage a little premature. I have however reached a stage where certain decisions are required, specifically the armament bulwark gunport/carronade configuration. I very much enjoy seeing other builders' thoughts and decisions on how to build their Artois class frigate, Diana or otherwise, and at the risk of putting people to sleep I'm summarizing my thoughts below. As has been commented many times, much is unknown leaving a lot to builders' discretion, but I think the available evidence suggests that these options can be. Without either the builders or ships logs to shed more light, much will remain conjecture. My goal was to arrive at the most likely (IMHO) scenario for 'Jason' when she was launched, but also not let this get in the way of the model I want to build. (Recognizing of course that certain anachronisms will persist, for example copper plates, armament etc. would not be present at launch). My intent is not to spark debate, but to get my thoughts on paper. 🙂
Chronological timeline of evidence and events:
Date unknown: Various NMM models with no armament, pierced for canons with open quarterdeck bulwarks and multiple design differences discussed fully in AOTS.
1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2383) – open bulwarks with quarterdeck, with more additional exposed quarterdeck timberheads, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
March 1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341) - Open bulwarks, originally reflects, but reflects updates (likely1797?) showing 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
March/April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5552) – Open bulwarks, reflects 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
1st April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J7737) - Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
4th April 1793 (NMM Plan ZAZ2344, NMM Wikimedia Commons J7733) – Framing plan, open bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
12 June 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5549) – Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons, (reflects change for 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports, as well as subsequent adjustments to gunport position – date unknown). Interestingly also shows the mainmast brace bits moved forward adjacent to the barricade which is not reflected in any other sources.
November 1793: Admiralty promulgated Order defines armament: Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade per Admiralty Order, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Likely long nine chase guns), 2 x 24lb Carronade
April 1794: JASON LAUNCHED
November 1794: Admiralty promulgated order to replace 24lb Carronades and carry additional 32lb Carronades at expense of some carriage guns. Quarterdeck: 6 x 9lb’er, 6 x 32lb Carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32lb Carronade
1797 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341)
Closed quarterdeck bulwarks shown on plan per current practice (Details of design or build channel and open bulwark arrangement shown). This plan also indicates the more austere square finish to the quarterdeck bulwark in addition to the more ornate version used in the illustration on the jacket and used as basis for the kit configuration. Interestingly, plan indicates that the Foremast of Jason and Diamond were moved forward 6 ¼ inches. Quarterdeck piercings for 12 carriage guns shown as designed/built together subsequent adjustments for piercings for 6 x carriage guns and 6 x Carronades Aug 1798: JASON WRECKED
December 1799: All upper deck armament to comprise 32lb Carronades per Admiralty Order, with exception of 2 chase guns)
Quarterdeck: 12 x 32lb carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32b Carronade
Decisions and rationale for how to represent ‘Jason’ “as launched”:
Bulwarks: Sufficient historical ambiguity to allow the model maker (me) to feel comfortable that both open or built-up bulwarks are historically viable. This short period of a few years when these ships were built was a time when the preference for 'built up' and 'open' bulwarks switched back and forth. The earlier older design variance of open bulwark with exposed timberheads, while intriguing to model, seems unlikely by 1794. Armament: The admiralty order of November 1793 will be reflected as I believe there would be sufficient time to between issuance and launch for this to be reflected. As such, Jason will be equipped with Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade and fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er and 2 x 24lb Carronade. Gunports: ‘Jason’s’ gunports will be pierced to reflect the armament described above. There are however no (existing) plans that show this configuration (i.e. only 2 quarterdeck carronades per side). In my view, this does not seem problematic: CORRECTED - there is! See post #691 below There was only a 12 month period between the Nov 1793 Admiralty orders to carry 4x24lb quarterdeck carronades, and the Nov 1794 order to carry 6x32lb quarterdeck carronades. Only plans drawn up in this period would reflect this configuration, and given that plans for each member of the class were drawn up pretty extensively in 1793, there doesn’t seem to have been much need to redo. The available plans reflect different things, but it's not definitively known exactly what. Various plans showing the original cannon only configuration show subsequent modifications for the 6 carronade ports, but none show only 4. It seems reasonable that any updates to reflect the 1793 (4) carronade configuration, would likely have been updated again to reflect the 6 carronade configuration after 1794, or just updated to once after 1794. My conclusion therefore is that the absence of a plan showing this configuration does not preclude it. The ports least encumbered by stays were selected, and which are consistent with subsequent carronade layout. Hopefully back to some photo's next update...
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Beef Wellington got a reaction from Gahm in HMS Jason by Beef Wellington - Caldercraft - 1:64 - Artois-class frigate modified from HMS Diana 1794
Thoughts and conjectures on 'Jason's' (and Artois class frigate) armament and bulwark configuration:
Currently knee deep trying to think through a number of problems making sharing photos at this stage a little premature. I have however reached a stage where certain decisions are required, specifically the armament bulwark gunport/carronade configuration. I very much enjoy seeing other builders' thoughts and decisions on how to build their Artois class frigate, Diana or otherwise, and at the risk of putting people to sleep I'm summarizing my thoughts below. As has been commented many times, much is unknown leaving a lot to builders' discretion, but I think the available evidence suggests that these options can be. Without either the builders or ships logs to shed more light, much will remain conjecture. My goal was to arrive at the most likely (IMHO) scenario for 'Jason' when she was launched, but also not let this get in the way of the model I want to build. (Recognizing of course that certain anachronisms will persist, for example copper plates, armament etc. would not be present at launch). My intent is not to spark debate, but to get my thoughts on paper. 🙂
Chronological timeline of evidence and events:
Date unknown: Various NMM models with no armament, pierced for canons with open quarterdeck bulwarks and multiple design differences discussed fully in AOTS.
1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2383) – open bulwarks with quarterdeck, with more additional exposed quarterdeck timberheads, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
March 1793 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341) - Open bulwarks, originally reflects, but reflects updates (likely1797?) showing 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
March/April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5552) – Open bulwarks, reflects 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports
1st April 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J7737) - Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
4th April 1793 (NMM Plan ZAZ2344, NMM Wikimedia Commons J7733) – Framing plan, open bulwarks, ports for cannons only (no carronades)
12 June 1793 (NMM Wikimedia Commons J5549) – Closed bulwarks, ports for cannons, (reflects change for 6 quarterdeck, 2 forecastle carronade ports, as well as subsequent adjustments to gunport position – date unknown). Interestingly also shows the mainmast brace bits moved forward adjacent to the barricade which is not reflected in any other sources.
November 1793: Admiralty promulgated Order defines armament: Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade per Admiralty Order, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Likely long nine chase guns), 2 x 24lb Carronade
April 1794: JASON LAUNCHED
November 1794: Admiralty promulgated order to replace 24lb Carronades and carry additional 32lb Carronades at expense of some carriage guns. Quarterdeck: 6 x 9lb’er, 6 x 32lb Carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32lb Carronade
1797 (NMM Plan Ref ZAZ2341)
Closed quarterdeck bulwarks shown on plan per current practice (Details of design or build channel and open bulwark arrangement shown). This plan also indicates the more austere square finish to the quarterdeck bulwark in addition to the more ornate version used in the illustration on the jacket and used as basis for the kit configuration. Interestingly, plan indicates that the Foremast of Jason and Diamond were moved forward 6 ¼ inches. Quarterdeck piercings for 12 carriage guns shown as designed/built together subsequent adjustments for piercings for 6 x carriage guns and 6 x Carronades Aug 1798: JASON WRECKED
December 1799: All upper deck armament to comprise 32lb Carronades per Admiralty Order, with exception of 2 chase guns)
Quarterdeck: 12 x 32lb carronade, fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er (Probably long nine chase guns), 2 x 32b Carronade
Decisions and rationale for how to represent ‘Jason’ “as launched”:
Bulwarks: Sufficient historical ambiguity to allow the model maker (me) to feel comfortable that both open or built-up bulwarks are historically viable. This short period of a few years when these ships were built was a time when the preference for 'built up' and 'open' bulwarks switched back and forth. The earlier older design variance of open bulwark with exposed timberheads, while intriguing to model, seems unlikely by 1794. Armament: The admiralty order of November 1793 will be reflected as I believe there would be sufficient time to between issuance and launch for this to be reflected. As such, Jason will be equipped with Quarterdeck: 8 x 9lb’er, 4 x 24lb Carronade and fo’c’sle: 2 x 9lb’er and 2 x 24lb Carronade. Gunports: ‘Jason’s’ gunports will be pierced to reflect the armament described above. There are however no (existing) plans that show this configuration (i.e. only 2 quarterdeck carronades per side). In my view, this does not seem problematic: CORRECTED - there is! See post #691 below There was only a 12 month period between the Nov 1793 Admiralty orders to carry 4x24lb quarterdeck carronades, and the Nov 1794 order to carry 6x32lb quarterdeck carronades. Only plans drawn up in this period would reflect this configuration, and given that plans for each member of the class were drawn up pretty extensively in 1793, there doesn’t seem to have been much need to redo. The available plans reflect different things, but it's not definitively known exactly what. Various plans showing the original cannon only configuration show subsequent modifications for the 6 carronade ports, but none show only 4. It seems reasonable that any updates to reflect the 1793 (4) carronade configuration, would likely have been updated again to reflect the 6 carronade configuration after 1794, or just updated to once after 1794. My conclusion therefore is that the absence of a plan showing this configuration does not preclude it. The ports least encumbered by stays were selected, and which are consistent with subsequent carronade layout. Hopefully back to some photo's next update...