USS Constitution by Modeler12 - Cross-Section - Bow Area

[Modeler12]

Back to the light boxes and how they are mounted.

 

When I looked at the Google pictures again it did not make sense that those brass covers to the light boxes were right on top of the 'beam'. After all, beam #5 was above all of this on several decks, so why not here? In fact, there is a post right there to support that beam.

Then on closer look, you can see that along the center-line of the ship at the orlop deck level there is another beam (I believe). Notice that the post is mounted on top of that beam (and not vs/vs). Furthermore, the Google pictures show a lot of tree-nailing in areas where there should not be any.

Being that I am interested in the structural aspects of my mystery ship, here is my interpretation of what the woodworks below the orlop deck looks like.

I have a few other thoughts and now I am not too sure that the powder room/magazines were two separate rooms.
There is no clear indication of that yet. But if there is one, it would be underneath the center-line beam.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Modeler12

[trippwj]

Interesting concept. One teensie fly - the stanchions (posts in your description) were intended by Humphreys to be moveable, not fixed. I need to verify the number of rows (I think it was 3 but not sure).

 

I also need to do a bit of checking into those deck lights - not quite sure if they were original or later addition.

[cwboland]

Great work on the bags. You could have used air soft pellets for the shot too. They come in about that size and are readily available at the local Wal-Mart, for those of us on this side of the pond anyways

[Modeler12]

Interesting concept. One teensie fly - the stanchions (posts in your description) were intended by Humphreys to be moveable, not fixed. I need to verify the number of rows (I think it was 3 but not sure).

 

I also need to do a bit of checking into those deck lights - not quite sure if they were original or later addition.

Wayne, the stanchions could be moved since they stand on the center line beam and don't go through the floor. The one I show in my sketch is directly underneath the beam. There are two more in the sail/storage room (painted white) and also underneath the berth deck beams, two in the hallway (varnished) and then they continue in the hold. No post where the stairs go up.

If the center line beam is correct, it would probably be supported by other stanchions that rest on the keelson.

 

If the center line beam is quite thick, the crawl space underneath it would be very small. Hence the use of two entrances, etc.

 

The whole idea of this powder fill room was an add on, I believe, because earlier drawings (1819) show the fill room to be on the orlop deck. It would still be possible that the area below was originally used as the magazine but not to fill the cartridges.

 

One more thing about the deck supports. There appears to be a number of 'carlings' or joists underneath that are spaced roughly 24 inches apart. You can see the deck splices at regular intervals and they do not correspond to the big beams overhead.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Carl, the first time I saw this picture of the boy holding one of those pouches, I realized what it was for. Now you can see them hanging above the cannons. But I don't recall seeing them out in the open on the spar deck.

  

 

[JSGerson]

Found these images of the powder room. I didn't know if you had them. The first one is the powder room the second is the scuttle to it. You will notice the room is copper clad which should add some interest to your model. I assume that the cladding prevents static charges so things don't go bump in the night.

 

Jonathan

[lambsbk]

That is the aft powder room and (I think Evan's, aka force9) son. It is easily accessible from the aft starboard side of the orlop deck, Some original Constitution wood is still down there - so they say.

[trippwj]

Copper lined to prevent sparks and also water inftration.

 

As to the center line beam, that is probably not original - will check what Humphreys described tonight.

[popeye2sea]

I got aboard the ship yesterday. Here are some pictures you may find useful.

 

The fresh water pump on the berth deck is stamped US Navy 1870.  The discharge pipe goes up to the overhead, bends to the left along the beam and then leads through a hole in the beam.  It looks like it would come up through the deck to port of the camboose, but there is nothing corresponding to it on the gun deck above.

Just in case you had any doubt as to what this is 

 

Now to the orlop

The passageway to the sail locker starts on Beam 9 with the portholes in the bulkheads over the hatches that lead down to the magazine/storage areas.  I tried to get a few pictures of what lies below.  The head room is about 2 feet or a little more and there is no ladder down so I did not try and squeeze down there in my full 1812 uniform.  Just aft of the Beam 9 bulkhead and under that platform in the hold beneath the ladder are what I believe to be the fresh water tanks. When you come down the short ladder into the hold you are basically standing on them.

 

Under the sail locker the storage areas appear divided port and starboard.  There is a small door leading into these rooms from where the scuttles/gratings are.  In one of the pictures taken from the scuttle looking forward on the starboard side you can see cannon balls on the floor.  Not sure if this is to indicate that this was a shot locker (I think the shot locker was further aft near the main mast).

This is the coaming under the port side hatch. You can see the top of the small door on the right (forward).

 

Looking aft inside the port side hatch.  You can see the front of the fresh water tank comes right up to beam 9.  Same on starboard side.

 

The light boxes are under beam five in the orlop.  I could not get a good picture down into the boxes, due to the flash bouncing off the glass.

 

The small hatch just aft of beam 3 seems to go down to a third storage area forward of the mast.  It currently holds a dewatering pump and what looks like a blower fan.  The space here is very shallow, 18 inches?

 

Hope this helps a bit.  If you need anything more specific let me know and I will try to get the pics.

 

Regards,

Edited July 26, 2015 by popeye2sea

[Modeler12]

Fantastic Henry. Many thanks, my friend.

I will have to digest all of this but I already have some questions. But let me wait instead of jumping in.

[Modeler12]

Jonathan, although the pictures you showed are of the main or aft magazine, it is interesting that the gun powder barrels seem to be roughly of the size that I found else where. They hold about 100 pounds of powder.

 

In addition, you can see that there may be a center beam that is supported on those posts that go down to the keelson. The forward magazine could be laid out similarly but in much more confined space. However, when I mentioned that the crawl space was only about 24 inches high, that could be increased because of the height of the keelson. Thus, perhaps the passage way could be around 36 inches. Then if there were a fill room at the end where the porthole is, the space to work in would be tight but not impossible. Still, there would not be enough room to go from one side to the other.

 

I have seen other ship models that have this room completely isolated with its own support beams and side walls. That was done to prevent moisture from entering (which did not work too well here as shown by the puddle and green copper oxide).

Notice also the round porthole at the far end. That seems to be the same type that Henry mentioned earlier. Even if there were no 'fill room', that porthole could have a lantern behind it to provide some light in this area.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Modeler12

[Modeler12]

Re Henry’s pictures.
 

The pump is then dated back to 1870 and perhaps the drawings Dan showed were put together back then. That would also mean that the water tanks in the hold were put there around that time. It is still a puzzle to me where that lead pipe is going. Why would it go aft? The PVC pipe near the top of the pump is for the sprinkling system, but the lead pipe could have gone through that hole originally.
 

Interesting, Henry, and thanks for providing those close-up shots of the pump mechanism. The swivel or fulcrum of the handle near the top seems to me a bit complicated and, of course, the PVC sprinkler pipe is in the way so you couldn’t operate the pump any way.
 

I am confused about three of your pictures showing the inside of the port side hatch (as you refer to them). Are these looking inside the hatches in the hall way (next to the bulkhead to the hold)? Or are they still up forward looking down? If they are in the hall way, can you actually see the water tanks right next to the magazine?
The aft magazine is lined with copper. Is the forward one the same? Can you see copper when you peek inside those hatches?

 

One more comment about my cross section plans. I will wait to see if Wayne can find out more, but otherwise I am going to put some drawings together based on what I now believe the structure below the orlop deck looks like. That then means redoing that deck entirely.  However, since the center beam rests on the keelsom, I will not make the orlop deck separate but include it and the magazine during the first stage of my assembly.

[trippwj]

One thing ti keep in mind is the difference between the magazine (location barrels of powder are stored) and the powder room (aft in the Connie, location where barrels were opened and cartridges/powder bags were filled). I believe only the powder room was coppered since that is where powder would be most exposed.

 

Just arrived at hotel so will check Humphreys after dinner.

[Modeler12]

One thing ti keep in mind is the difference between the magazine (location barrels of powder are stored) and the powder room (aft in the Connie, location where barrels were opened and cartridges/powder bags were filled). I believe only the powder room was coppered since that is where powder would be most exposed.

What that means, Wayne, is that the aft 'magazine/powder room' which was coppered per the photograph above was indeed both a fill and storage area. Do we know that as a fact?

I think that is correct because an opened barrel of gun powder is dangerous, but one that is unopened should be 'harmless'. The use of copper was not limited to the walls, floors and ceiling. The tools to open barrels and to do the filling were all made of copper or brass to prevent sparks and so were the rings around the barrels (some wood but no iron hoops).

What I don't see in the photograph is the actual tub of gun powder and the stool(s) where the operator might sit near the glass porthole. I would also include storage for cloth cartridge bags and other tools and a temporary place to store filled cartridges.

 

I maintain that the forward magazine was designed to be also a fill room. I say that because of the hole in the scuttles matches the size of the cartridge pouches. There is no other room that could be used as a fill station. So, I am drawing up the orlop supports with the posts (down to the keelson) and a center beam. Between these is the storage for barrels,(maybe only one layer). That would work out to be about twelve barrels or 1200 pounds of gun powder. The whole area will have a solid ceiling and be coppered, with the understanding that barrels were only going to be opened near the porthole, leaving the entrance area with painted wood (held together with copper nails?)

[JSGerson]

From: A Sailor's Life for Me (an educational site for young minds)

 

Buried [aft] deep below Constitution's waterline was a strange, cramped, dark, place: the magazine. Copper lined the walls. The only light came through a window from a lantern in the next room. Sailors working here were forbidden to carry iron objects, and they wore felt slippers. These precautions were needed because the magazine was a store-room for gunpowder. If it got damp, Constitution's guns would not fire. And if just one spark entered the room, the ship might instantly explode.

 

 

I thought the illustration might be of some use...maybe.

[Modeler12]

Yes it does Jonathan. It explains why there is no copper just below the hatch covers. A separate wall with the slit covered 'window'. HMMM.

I wonder how the fill guys got out? 

But if this was aft, it is reasonable to assume that the same thing held for the forward fill rooms. 

[mtaylor]

Jay,

 

I can't speak certainty, but from other ships and plans, the aft was generally the main magazine and fill room, although some had the reverse.  They would only store the barrels in one area and fill in one room.  The needed amount would then be moved to the other mazagine for serving that part of the ship. I believe things could be controlled better by storing and filling in only one area.  Two filling areas would have created twice the hazard.  There would have been scuttles for handing the bags to the powder monkey for serving the guns.

[Modeler12]

Jay,

 

I can't speak certainty, but from other ships and plans, the aft was generally the main magazine and fill room, although some had the reverse.  They would only store the barrels in one area and fill in one room.  The needed amount would then be moved to the other mazagine for serving that part of the ship. I believe things could be controlled better by storing and filling in only one area.  Two filling areas would have created twice the hazard.  There would have been scuttles for handing the bags to the powder monkey for serving the guns.

Mark that makes a lot of sense. In other words the barrels with powder could be stored in the aft magazine where the cartridges would be filled. Then they would transfer a lot of those cartridges to the forward 'magazine' where they would be stored until needed. Just like Jonathan's cartoon shows. The forward magazine would have no barrels.

 

To transfer all those cartridges would require some special handling equipment, such as barrels (with copper hoops) that could be sealed.

 

The picture that Jonathan shows would not be the aft but the forward magazine. All it shows are shelves with cartridges and the hatches correspond to that area, plus it depicts the hole in the scuttle the way it is now.

 

My admiral was right: this is Jay's Mystery Ship

Edited July 26, 2015 by Modeler12

[trippwj]

Greetings - have found the document I was looking for.  Here is what JH had to say about the Orlop Deck beams:

 

Pillars or stantions 3 tier under the gundeck and one under the upper deck made to shift

 

Lower deck beams of the best heart pitch pine sided 16 inch and moulded 14 inch. The longest beam to spring 6 inches and the rest by the same mould.

 

Carlings in 3 tier 6 by 9 inches of white oak

Ledges in 3 tier   5 by 6 inches of white oak, 2 between each beam

 

Spur beam one of live oak on each side of the main hatch tabled kneed and bolted on the foreside of the beam on the after part of the main hatch 12 inch by 14 and for gundeck the same.

 

Orlope deck to be laid 6 ft 2 inch below the upper part of the lower deck beams of the best heart pitch pine sided 12 inches and moulded 10 inch laid with 2 inch common plank kneed with one good live oak knee at each end bolted with inch bolts. It will be best to put the clamps on the ceiling 3 inch thick

 

Gundeck beams One under each port and one between of the best heart pitch pine as near as the hatchways & masts will admit as per draft, sided 18 inch & moulded 15 inch. All other beams to be laid directly over and under the frame.

 

UPPER DECK

Beams placed over the gundeck beams sided 13 and 14 inches moulded of the best heart pitch pine

 

Source for the above:

Humphreys, J.Contemporaneous or Certified Copy (made for information of action) to Henry Knox. 1794. Letter Humphreys to Henry Knox. Dimensions and Articles for 44 Gun Frigates. Contemporaneous or Certified Copy (made for information of action). Uselma Clarke Smith Coll. #1378D. Historical Society Of Pennsylvania. http://wardepartmentpapers.org/document.php?id=10736.

 

 

Also see the attached transcription Knox, H. 1794. Letter, Knox to Tench Cox. Dimensions of Beams from Humphreys. Letterbook Copy. Sec Navy Requisitions on Sec Treas, RG45. National Archives and Records Administration. http://wardepartmentpapers.org/document.php?id=12215.

 

1794-10-22 HK to TC dimensions of beams ZXA06-86-88.pdf

[mtaylor]

Jay, I think also, that both rooms would have been coppered.   There's some ships where the floor was palleted and the pallet could be pulled up to clean up the spilled powder.  But at that point in time, the walls/bulkheads would have been plastered in an effort to keep the room dry. 

[trippwj]

In terms of the center beam, here are two plans from 1926 - the Orlop and Berth Decks with Planking removed.

 

Berth Deck

18285-.pdf

 

Orlop Deck

19506001.pdf

 

Also see this one from Ware (1819) showing the location of the forward filling room on the Orlop deck. 

 

1819 Ware plan Orlop.pdf

 

Barrels of powder may have been stored in locations other than just the filling room - consider for a moment how many barrels of powder the ship would carry (about 11 pounds per round from a 32 pound gun, give or take a mite).  There are, in the various papers I have not yet had transcribed, several discussing delivery of powder and shot for the Connie, as well as many discussions about the outfitting (which, since those are in my printed books, are currently about 130 miles from here).  The point being that there would, assuming 44 guns needing 10 pounds per shot (on average) = 440 pounds per shot.  Add to that the anticipated number of shots (let's be conservative and say only 20 per gun at the most) results in more than 8000 pounds of powder (at least 80 barrels at 100 pounds per barrel).

 

[mtaylor]

Interesting... the Ware plan shows the forward filling room but nothing aft.  Unless #7 is the magazine.  There would have been a lot of powder both as barrels and as bagged.  I read an account of (I think it was the Billy Ruffian) leaving port with magazines filled with bagged powder plus barrels.  I forget the number of barrels but that was a 74 and it was an large number.  You're right, powder barrels could be stowed anywhere that there was no flame or water but the preferred area was the powder room.

[Modeler12]

Thank you Wayne (and every one else who contributed to this great adventure), but at this point I have to continue with my build.

I have learned a lot from all of you and will continue to take advise as you may think appropriate, but right now let me refresh:

 

1. Marquardt's book leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to accuracy. It has caused me many headaches and lots of time spent correcting.

2. The drawings and Henry's pictures have helped me clarify several things about the Orlop deck (and what may be below it). 

3. I am not trying to recreate the ship as it was built and don't care what it 'might have been like' without certainty. I like to see what she is now and perhaps a few years ago. The basic structure is there and a few changes in walls etc. will not change the whole ship.

4. My logic and instinct about the lower structure is good enough for me to draw up some plans and build that part as I see it now.

5. This is still my build log but if you wish to continue with details that are not part of what I am trying to do, I suggest to post those with a new thread.

6. I need a vacation and will be spending some time at Lake Shasta (CA) despite the low water levels and drought there.

 

Are any ship models made exactly like it is supposed to be (or was)?

[mtaylor]

Go for it, Jay.      Sounds like a good plan.  

 

Lake Shasta?  Yeah... it's pretty low from the reports I've heard.  We were there about 5 years ago and I wasn't sure how they were launching boats back then....  Are you doing the houseboat thing?

[keelhauled]

Jay,

Love the build and the mysteries!

Learning all types of wonders!

Marc

[Modeler12]

Go for it, Jay.      Sounds like a good plan.  

 

Lake Shasta?  Yeah... it's pretty low from the reports I've heard.  We were there about 5 years ago and I wasn't sure how they were launching boats back then....  Are you doing the houseboat thing?

Actually we are renting a house there that will sleep 14 people (they say). Between the 12 of us it should be 'fun'

One of our son-in-laws has a large boat he is bringing and the other one is renting a 'party boat'. So we should have plenty to do if we can find water. If not, six grand kids will keep us 'entertained'.

[GLakie]

I agree Jay. With a ship like Constitution, where the records from the past are sketchy at best, and the only real Navy plans for the ship, even as it is, don't exist, the only thing you can rely on is best guess. Besides, anyone other than you, who will be viewing it when it's done, won't really notice the difference if anything is slightly off. You're the Captain here, so like Mark says, it's a good plan, and go for it.

 

Have a great time on your vacation

[Modeler12]

Thank you George for your nice comments and all the times you have spent followed my folly.

After I get back from the lake I will redo the orlop deck and continue like there were no mistakes made in the past.

After all, some of our history is best forgotten if the records are sour.

[Modeler12]

George, I fully agree with you regarding the confusion of Navy drawings (or lack thereof). Here is my assessment and I will leave it at that.
 

The 1819 Ware Plan drawings were probably the first set of details showing the plan view of the orlop deck but no cross section, no side view. There was no mention of a powder room or magazine below the deck.
 

Marquardt’s book on page 49 shows a detailed layout of all decks including a powder/fill room below the orlop deck. It also shows a light room with ladder going down. I used that for my first orlop deck, but now doubt about anything is see here (wrong locations, etc).

Then on page 57 same book, he shows a new side view marked ‘Twentieth Century Restoration Drawings’. All of a sudden the bottom of the main mast goes from six feet above the bottom of the ship to eight feet. Without any explanation most of the keelson grew by two feet or so. This created the low overhead below the orlop deck compared with earlier drawings!!??
 

The Navy Restoration drawing of 1926 shows a plan view of the orlop deck ‘with planking removed’. A note on this drawing mentioned that all of this was based on measurements taken on the ship. Did they really remove the planking to do this? However, the drawing does not show the keelsom  nor any posts standing there. Perhaps some people crawled underneath the orlop deck (and perhaps not). I simply don’t trust that drawing. Why did it not include a side view or cross section view?
 

Then there is the side view that Dan provided me from his CD. I was not able to zoom in on it, but it does show the way the area underneath the orlop deck as it is today. It even shows the two light boxes that Henry pointed out. Something the restoration drawing does not show.

Finally there will be Jay’s drawings. But they will have to wait for a couple weeks to be published here.

[popeye2sea]

Re Henry’s pictures.

 

The pump is then dated back to 1870 and perhaps the drawings Dan showed were put together back then. That would also mean that the water tanks in the hold were put there around that time. It is still a puzzle to me where that lead pipe is going. Why would it go aft? The PVC pipe near the top of the pump is for the sprinkling system, but the lead pipe could have gone through that hole originally.

 

Interesting, Henry, and thanks for providing those close-up shots of the pump mechanism. The swivel or fulcrum of the handle near the top seems to me a bit complicated and, of course, the PVC sprinkler pipe is in the way so you couldn’t operate the pump any way.

 

I am confused about three of your pictures showing the inside of the port side hatch (as you refer to them). Are these looking inside the hatches in the hall way (next to the bulkhead to the hold)? Or are they still up forward looking down? If they are in the hall way, can you actually see the water tanks right next to the magazine?

The aft magazine is lined with copper. Is the forward one the same? Can you see copper when you peek inside those hatches?

 

One more comment about my cross section plans. I will wait to see if Wayne can find out more, but otherwise I am going to put some drawings together based on what I now believe the structure below the orlop deck looks like. That then means redoing that deck entirely.  However, since the center beam rests on the keelsom, I will not make the orlop deck separate but include it and the magazine during the first stage of my assembly.

The pictures I took are looking down the hatches with the round scuttles in the hall way to the sail locker.  In these views are two pictures facing aft.  The metal looking wall (steel,lead?) is the forward side of the water tank.  It is under beam 9 and the hall way portholes of the orlop.  In the other view, on the right you can see the top portion of a small door that is swung open in the bulkhead on the forward side of the magazine passage.  The door is hinged on the outboard side, has rails, stiles, and inset panels, and the top panel appears to be able to swing open from the top.  So the magazine is totally walled off from the passage.  In the other pic, on the starboard side, looking forward where you can see the cannon balls you can also see a partition wall made of open slats.  I regret that I did not think to take more pictures looking forward on the port side to see if that space was similar to the starboard side. Perhaps another time.

I hope that helps clarify the photos

Regards,