Steamboats and other rivercraft - general discussion

[Windships]

I think we are looking at two different things?

 

If these are weather cloths, they would protect against rain/snow getting to the stowed firewood and any other cargo for which moisture might be a problem?  A deceased mentor of mine (Robert A. Weinstein) always encouraged us to ask "How is this used?" if we wanted to understand something in an image, or when we wanted to represent it on a model.

 

I have no idea what the lighter colored tubular feature might be.

 

If you figured out what the darker "tube" is, maybe I missed that post.

 

[Cathead]

Pretty sure the darker object you indicate is actually a grasshopper spar stowed horizontally, hanging from lines coming down from its white support spar. The angle makes a good visual illusion  but if you look really closely you can see the lines wrapped around it near center. I  also don't think there's any reason rolled clothes would be hung like that, especially out over the bow.

[Windships]

Other examples...

In another view, not pasted here, the weather cloth was painted as if it were a billboard.

[kurtvd19]

I agree with Eric that it is more likely a spar than any sort of cover rolled up.  Way too uniform to be anything rolled up - especially that far above the deck.  No sag.

The roll down tarps in your photos show sag and nonuniform gathering as would be expected with tarps.

[Windships]

When I enlarge it in Picasa (is there a better app for organizing photos? Looking for one.) I see almost a bark-like texture to that feature, and I don't see any vertical separations that you would see if it were sections of a rolled tarp, so, yes, it probably is a spar of some sort.

[Windships]

 

Thanks to Kurt for pointing me to the Howard Steamboat Museum, from where I was directed to their digitized photo collection at this link.

https://digital.library.louisville.edu/cdm/search/collection/howard/searchterm/edna/order/nosort

 

The EDNA seems a good archetype were I to try to reconstruct the appearance of the Z. BIDDLE.

They are very close in principal dimensions, with EDNA being slightly shorter, a bit wider, and a bit deeper. (64.7 x 19 x 3)

Of course without any detail description or photo of the Z. BIDDLE yet located, any model would just be an informed speculation.

 

 

[Windships]

Interesting coincidence about this ferry...she carries the same name as my great aunt, Edna (Rhodes) Biddle.

 

There are several USS Biddle's but I am not related to any of their namesakes.

 

Never found a vessel with a direct connection to my Mom's family, McLeans of New Brunswick along the Miramichi River.

But I do have some indications of them being in the ship building or ship timber business.

 

In one of the documents I got from NARA it specifies the height of the letters (10 inches I think it said) on the transom for the name of the vessel, and that in the case of the Z. Biddle, they are to be White on a Black background. Just the opposite of what we see on the Edna.

 

But here is a towboat "named after my wife" RITA... and then my model of the AD Story dragger named RITA B.

 

FUN

 

 

 

 

 

[Cathead]

I think we're missing the model photo?

[Windships]

You mean the RITA B?

 

Here it is. 1:96, and one of the most difficult models I ever attempted.

 

 

 

 

[CW_Tom]

Very much enjoyed reading through this thread, as I just discovered it.  Being from MT and ND, the Missouri Riverboats definitely hold personal interest.  Also, one river not as well known to have used steam paddle wheelers was the Great Red River of the North.  This river flows north out of SD and forms the border between MN and ND.  It continues through Canada, through Winnipeg and dumps into Hudson Bay.  It used riverboats to haul cargo and passengers between Fort Garry (Winnipeg) and Fort Abercrombie (Wahpeton, ND).  Goods traveled to and from Fort Abercrombie to St. Paul, MN via the Red River ox cart trail. 

 

Here's a quick article on the subject: Section 6: Steamboats on the Red River | North Dakota Studies (ndstudies.gov)

 

And some eye candy: 

[Windships]

In case Kurt hasn't been able to post this (he first told be about the book being available at the Howard Steamboat Museum) here is some very good news.

 

ALAN BATES - Engine Room Cyclopedium, and Western Rivers Steamboat Cyclopedium. - NEW COPIES AVAILABLE

 

On May 5, 2021, at 12:22 PM, Kadie Engstrom <kdsteamboat1914@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I have just heard that the Engine Room Cyclopedium books will be in our hands tomorrow, May 6. That means I can send it out to you once I have your credit card number (with expiration date and security code) and your mailing address. It will probably be better to call me with that info, instead of putting it out on cyberspace, and I'm here all day tomorrow and Friday, 10 am - 4 pm EDT at 812-283-3728. I'll be most happy to do it!

 

We're also receiving some Steamboat Cyclopediums, in case that becomes an interest for your group. Both books are $25 each, plus tax and shipping. I hope if any of the people you'll send your message to are interested in inland waterways river steamboats, they will let me know how I can help them.

 

The Engine Room Cyclopediums are comb bound so they open flat for workbench reference.

The Steamboat Cyclopediums although bound the same as the original issue, also open flat.

 

These editions are being printed on demand. The museum has all of Alan Bates's originals and rights thereto.

 

Many, many thanks! I'm glad we're going to be able to provide what you've been looking for!

 

Kadie

[Windships]

In the Needles, California Museum - near the Colorado River, there is a notebook containing photos of steamboats on that river. Apparently they were constructed up near San Francisco, knocked down, transported around Cabo San Lucas and up into the Sea of Cortez and the mouth of the Colorado River. There was a shipyard there, where they were assembled, and then worked up and down the river as far as Yuma Arizona.

The might river is  now silted in, but there are vestiges of that "port"

 

Not certain whether the last one below is from the Colorado.

The others I snapped from their notebook or off the walls.

 

[Cathead]

Very cool! Hard to imagine, now that the river's been destroyed by damming.

[Windships]

I wonder if there is a book about them?

[Windships]

https://www.amazon.com/Steamboats-Colorado-1852-1916-Richard-Lingenfelter/dp/0816505675

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=steamboats+on+the+colorado+river+1852+-+1916&t=opera&page=1&sexp={"biaexp"%3A"b"%2C"msvrtexp"%3A"b"}&iax=images&ia=images

 

I see where I got that last image.

[LJP]

Incredible photos!

[CW_Tom]

Here in Bismarck, ND, the Parks and Rec have some displays for those interested in riverboats that plied the Missouri.  One is a half length replica of a paddlewheeler.  Another is a complete replica of Lewis and Clark's keelboat, and finally, we've got the Lewis and Clark Riverboat, which is a modern boat built to emulate a paddlewheeler.  

[Cathead]

That's a cool looking park for sure, though I have to say that replica keelboat isn't all that accurate. Though it doesn't really matter as it was probably a lot easier to build that way and 99% of visitors won't care while getting a reasonable taste of the size and layout of the original vessel. Pedantic sticklers like me aren't really the target audience!

[Windships]

Many years ago, my friend Richard (Dick) Boss built well-researched models of the various vessels employed by Lewis & Clark. There was at least one article in the Nautical Research Journal about that project. I don't know where the models went. Dick died not long after.

 

He also built the model of the San Francisco Bay scow schooner Robbie Hunter, which I believe is still owned by the San Francisco Maritime Museum, and an excellent model of USS Porpoise ("They came on Porpoise" was the name of the NRJ article).

 

We all remember (I think...) the Disney TV series about Mike Fink and the keelboat days.

I have a book about Keelboat Days (on the Mississippi?).

[Windships]

Yesterday I received my copies of Alan Bates' two books from the Howard Steamboat Museum.

Excellent new printing. I was mistaken though. It is the WR Steamboat Cyclopoedium which is now comb bound, and the Engine Room Cyclopoedium (a much shorter, but well-illustrated) volume is not. Speaking selfishly, I wish his primary fold-out drawing was for a sternwheeler rather than a sidewheeler.

 

If I ever find what I need for a responsible model of the ferry Z. BIDDLE, no doubt these two books will be invaluable.

[kurtvd19]

Randy:

I have been meaning to mention that the Murphy Library at LaCrosse, WI has THE collection of riverboat photographs and they might have something on the Z> BIDDLE.  Ralph DuPae collected riverboat photographs from the western rivers regardless of how obscure.  Ralph's knowledge of riverboats was second to none and he could recall any riverboat photograph he had ever seen and tell you what it showed.  He helped me extensively in my search for photos of the towboat that pushed all but the first submarine produced in Manitowoc, WI to the gulf (from Lockport, IL) and recalled the number of photos of the boat that he had and what each showed.  I paid him on the spot - we were at a meeting in IA -and got a large envelope of photos about 2 weeks later with exactly what he had described.  All his photographs now make up the majority of the Murphy Libraries collection. I have lost contact with the librarians there but they have a reputation of being very helpful.

[Cathead]

When this project first came up, I searched that UW collection for the Biddle, hoping to be helpful, and came up with nothing.

 

I recently bought a copy of the NRJ article on that keelboat (more accurately, barge) as I'm considering that as a future project.

[Windships]

My thanks to both of you.

I'm not certain, but the collection sounded familiar to me, and I believe I checked as well.

 

During that period (1878-1892) we know that there were numerous portrait photographers active in the area (Pike County - Griggsville - Pittsfield) which suggests that even in very small towns (population under 1200) photographs were not unknown. Of course portrait cameras would have been less portable than one potentially used in the field. Regardless, we know of no photos of the Griggsville Landing area (east of Griggsville, and a bit south of Valley City on the Illinois River) where larger steamboats were constructed as early as 1845. One large warehouse there survives (2020). There are a very small number of structures at Valley City, now essentially a ghost town after the 1993 Mississippi floods. It is unclear, precisely where Phillips Ferry landing was located--the place from which our ferry would have operated to cross the river to Scott County. We have checked both sides of the river (libraries and historical societies) but no luck. A local Pike County newspaper ran an article I wrote asking for help, but it got no replies.

 

Within a few days I expect digital delivery of scans from microfilm newspapers (Abraham Lincoln Library & Museum) for dates of significance in the life of the ferry. After nearly seven months of searching, these pages are probably our last best hope of any contemporary description of the ferry. A request is outstanding to NARA in Kansas City, MO for a wreck report (if one exists) and anything else they might hold.

 

If these wells are dry, then the alternative is a speculative reconstruction. Might be fun, and probably the only effort that will result in a photo of the ferry surfacing...after the model is completed!! 

 

This ferry is very similar dimensionally, but built in 1914.

 

 

 

The Google Earth view was provided by a member of the Pike County Historical Society. The bridge used to carry Wabash Railroad trains (my Dad and his, both worked for that road as draftsmen.)

 

[CW_Tom]

Windships,

 

I may have found one of Richard Boss' Keelboat models you were referring to.  It looks like it may be in my hometown, Great Falls, MT, at the Lewis and Clark Interpretive Center.  I'm not sure if you were interested in finding its location, but if you are, then here you go!

 

"He gave all of them to the Fort Clatsop National Memorial, which eventually placed them on permanent loan to the Lewis and Clark Interpretive Center in Great Falls, Montana. With the Center's permission, photographs of Mr. Boss's models are used to illustrate discussions of those watercrafts on Discovering Lewis & Clark."

May 1, 1804 | Discovering Lewis & Clark ® (lewis-clark.org)

 

[Windships]

Thanks very much!

We're not far away here in Star, Idaho and intend a trip to Billings to see family, sometime this year.

Sounds like a great side-trip.

 

All best!

[mtaylor]

Many years ago, the Arch in St. Louis had a good collection of riverboats in their museum.   I don't know what else that had as at that point I was only into sight seeing.  I also recall that they had like 10 other museums relating to history, transport, etc.   Again, not sure what they might have but St. Louis used to be big on the historical river craft.

[Windships]

Thanks for that possible lead.

Coincidentally, I just received the newspaper scans I mentioned earlier in this thread.

No mention whatsoever of the Z. Biddle.

 

Her official documentation shows her home port as St Louis. I believe that is because her bare hull was towed there from Griggsville Landing on the Illinois, where it was built in August 1878 to install her machinery and stern paddlewheel, and there she was enroled and license issued. But, I know she operated from Phillips Ferry on the Illinois and not out of St Louis.

 

None of the research I did in and around St Louis bore fruit. It is nearly impossible to search St Louis newspapers though because a major street there is Biddle Street, which gets captured and returned in hundreds of looks.

 

Exasperating!

[Windships]

https://www.amazon.com/Steamboats-Colorado-1852-1916-Richard-Lingenfelter/dp/0816505675

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=steamboats+on+the+colorado+river+1852+-+1916&t=opera&page=1&sexp={"biaexp"%3A"b"%2C"msvrtexp"%3A"b"}&iax=images&ia=images

 

I see where I got that last image.

[Windships]

HOWARD STEAMBOAT MUSEUM - THIS JUST IN

 

04/14/2021

Did you ever want to know how the fabulous models in the museum came to be? Have you ever wanted to meet a person who builds maritime models? Would you like to attend lectures with some of the premiere builders of maritime models?

Then you are going to be interested in a very special day at the Howard Steamboat Museum.

River Ramblings 2021 - A Scale Model Symposium

Spend the day with us and become immersed in the world of scale modeling as you meet model builders who are sharing their hand-crafted models, listen to talks by some of the modelers, and peruse the Howard Steamboat Museum and its amazing collection of scale model steamboats.

We will have light snacks available for purchase, a River Rummage Sale of all sorts of unique river items, and the museum will be open for you to enjoy.

10, October 2021 from 12:00pm to 4:00pm EDT
The Howard Steamboat Museum
1101 East Market Street
Jeffersonville, IN. 47130
(812) 283-3728
info@howardsteamboatmuseum.org

Admission $10.00 per person

[chborgm]

Off topic but had to make this comment.Back in 2017 when you started the thread on the Arabia you made mention of the wreck and the recovery effort. Well I just ran across the Youtube video that covers the work and dedication of those involved.