How 3D plans could be helpful for a modeler

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

 My perception of 3D model ship changed with the years. Even if I am not able to draw 3D I have admiration for those who can do it.

 

Here is what I would like to do if I knew how to do it. I would like to have the 3D  model ship I am  building  actually in wood.

I do not know if what I write is a stupid idea but here is how a 3D model could help me:

 

Let's take an example: I am building a keel for the 74  guns. It is difficult to visualize how will the planking will touch the keel and in which angle.

With access to the 3D model, it would be possible to visualize the keel as a finish product and rotate it as we wish to see details.

I suppose I would need a program to open these files, but as an addition to the plans, I would love to buy such 3D plans.

[tkay11]

One problem may be the potential for piracy as this would mean that you could download or copy such plans.

 

It's great that Ed Tosti has been able to provide 2D frame plans on CD for the Naiad, but there don't seem to be many that are prepared to do this, .

 

So for me it's not just having 3D plans that would be useful. I'd love a solution to the provision of 2D plans on CD because I find the business of undoing the distortions caused by photocopying (for cutting frames, for example) to be a real hassle.

 

Tony

[dvm27]

Excellent topic, Gaetan. We are in the process of having our Swan class builds rendered as 3D illustrations, a step by step building log to be used in conjuction with our Swan class books. This should make the construction of one of these models significantly easier. Stay tuned...

[MEDDO]

7 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

Excellent topic, Gaetan. We are in the process of having our Swan class builds rendered as 3D illustrations, a step by step building log to be used in conjuction with our Swan class books. This should make the construction of one of these models significantly easier. Stay tuned...

 That is excellent news Greg. I'll be really interested. After a few more years of progressive kit bashing I am looking forward to my eventual Swan/Comet build. (I really like the look of the Comet)

[Dilbert55]

Creating a good 3D model is basically the same as building most things, you make the detail parts, build sub-assy's, then put them all together into the main assembly. The time required to create a 3D model of this complexity from scratch would take at least as long, if not longer, than building the real model itself. If you already had a 74 Gun ship model at hand, you could scan existing parts using a laser tool rather than model them from scratch in 3D. A good 3D model would permit you not only to visualize how planking would touch the hull but also let you simulate shaping, bending and installing the planking. 

 

Gaetan and I live quite close to an aircraft assembly plant that has just completed spending billions $$ designing and simulating the build of a new commercial aircraft using Catia V5-Enovia, so if we can get enough of those skilled 3D jockey's hooked on model ship building, perhaps we can coax them into creating a 3D model.     

[herask]

Dilbert, here's one 3d modeler who's got hooked on ship building. it's been 3 months since I found out about MSW and its awesome community of scale model wizards. even though I've seen a lot of wizardry in CG world I was still floored with what I've seen here. naturally now I'm building my own 3d ship - the hard way, of course! :-D

 

oh, in my case, creating a 3d model is waaay quicker than doing it in wood, sawdusting the neighborhood, chopping off fingers....

 

 

[Dilbert55]

Hi Herask, you want to keep all your fingers if you're a 3D driver! 

 

My time estimate is based on making a fully representative 3D model of a 74 gun ship like Gaetan builds. Must confess I'm not a 3D modeler myself but was responsible for software and training at one point in my career. Made some time studies on designer productivity in order to justify upgrading our 3D software and as this experience was with designing aircraft, the level of detail and accuracy is very high.

 

 

[Dilbert55]

For those interested in 3D modeling historical ships, if you have not seen Michel Saunier's Soleil Royal, take a look, it's incredible. Imagine modeling that.

[Jack H]

Hi Gaetan.

I can understand your thoughts or needs.

Make 3D models for a variety of uses, research structures/game/and drawings...

At present, there are some free small software, you can import the 3D model, check to see  the model from many angles, it's very useful to understanding the structure of the model.Better software such as UE4-a powerful 3D game development software that can even simulate real naval battles.It seems is free by developer(official).You can search it online and get authorization.

 

But who will develop the 3D model?After all, this demand is very small, and team development is still not possible.

 

As other members says,a good 3D model is no less than a real model.So, you can work with people who have 3D modeling capabilities.

 

Now,I have give up making 3D virtual ship model instead of using 3D technology to make the actual one.Such as cnc

 

 

 

[pompey2]

For models created in SolidWorks there is very good, free viewer - eDrawings.

You get pretty much full 3D viewing functionality - pull apart assemblies, section, measure, rotate, zoom etc.

Visit the solidWorks web site to download a copy.

It will also view some other formats like ACAD.

You can use it to view native Solidworks files, or the creator can save a native file as an eDrawing file to help protect their IP.

 

Nick

[Don9of11]

I would recommend Onshape it's free or you can pay either way the full use of the software is at your disposal. It's also cloud based which means a group collaboration is possible. Its a lot like SW but different to. There is no software to down load and it runs on pc, Mac, and various mobile devices. I'm using it now to design a 74 gun ship based mostly on Steel's work but other resources as well. 

 

Designing a ship of this complexity from scratch has been a challenge but also rewarding. I work on it during evenings, weekends and when the spirit moves me, not necessarily in that order. That being said, it's been a couple years in the making and I'm not done. A couple screen shots is below..  I have post on the forum called "scantling questions" which documents my progress.

[JohnE]

Salut Gaetan

 

I am doing exactly that for my Cornélie. I have the quille and contre-quille in 3D and am lofting each frame with special attention to the rabbet angles. It is interactive - I place a frame/couple and then tweak the keel assembly underneath it to reflect a proper shape to receive the garboard strake. It is fun and interesting to watch the rabbet shape evolve as I move farther and farther aft. When the process is finished, I will have a set of suitable plans for the keel pieces, as well as lofted frames/couples that fit.

 

3D is a bit of a challenge, but a great deal of fun. If you enjoy drafting plans and figuring out fiddly-bit details, 3D is a rewarding exercise.

 

John

[Williamo]

One of my projects at the moment is to create a (half) hull shape for a small sloop as a 3D drawing, and  determine the edge profiles of each of the frames, as well as define all board and keel profiles. I worked for years with 3D drafting programs so the drawing isn't the tricky bit.

With the keel and frames cut and assembled, the inverted hull is mounted on a CNC machine. The cutter follows the software which defines the edge profiles of the frames. As we all may know, this is a time- consuming process by hand.

After planking, the cutter can be reset to follow the fairing profile. That's the theory!

BTW I'm using Bentley Microstation V8i- a bit old now but handy with Béziers curves and complex Boolean bits. 

I'm now wrestling with translating the drawings into CNC speak before committing to wood.

Might do a few tests on foam first!

Edited January 31, 2018 by Williamo
Incomplete.

[Williamo]

On 30/01/2018 at 10:14 PM, Roger Pellett said:

Working craft of Brittany are covered in the book Les bateaux des cortes de la Bretagne Nord by Jean Le Bot. The book includes a chapter on the St. Malo Pilot Boats that appear to be the boat that you are researching.  The book is in French, but plans are plans.  Used copies are available on Amazon, but make sure if you buy a copy it includes the large scale drawings included in a pocket.

 

Roger

 

On 17/05/2017 at 10:08 PM, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

 My perception of 3D model ship changed with the years. Even if I am not able to draw 3D I have admiration for those who can do it.

 

Here is what I would like to do if I knew how to do it. I would like to have the 3D  model ship I am  building  actually in wood.

I do not know if what I write is a stupid idea but here is how a 3D model could help me:

 

Let's take an example: I am building a keel for the 74  guns. It is difficult to visualize how will the planking will touch the keel and in which angle.

With access to the 3D model, it would be possible to visualize the keel as a finish product and rotate it as we wish to see details.

I suppose I would need a program to open these files, but as an addition to the plans, I would love to buy such 3D plans.

Hi Gaétan,

I am currently drawing in 3D, producing individual plank, frame and keel drawings, These can be cut from wood with all the complex curves,angles and bevels, using a CNC system, and should fit pretty well. This is one of my current projects, but not with 74 guns!

[Williamo]

On 31/01/2018 at 11:00 PM, Williamo said:

  On 30/01/2018 at 10:14 PM, Roger Pellett said:

Working craft of Brittany are covered in the book Les bateaux des cortes de la Bretagne Nord by Jean Le Bot. The book includes a chapter on the St. Malo Pilot Boats that appear to be the boat that you are researching.  The book is in French, but plans are plans.  Used copies are available on Amazon, but make sure if you buy a copy it includes the large scale drawings included in a pocket.

 

 

Thanks Roger. Just got my copy of Jean Le Bot's book, complete with drawings! Excellent! Thanks again for the suggestion.Williamo

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I am   more traditional builder than a 3d builder. It does not mean that I would not like to use 3D. If I would be a good user like HJX, I would like to ''program'' a 3D figurehead.

Every day 3D becomes more accessible and more  affordable.

 

I remember the first time I saw a 2 feet long 3D dolphin made by a 5 axis milling machine. The program used was costing at 20 or 25 thousands dollars and there was a physical key to install in a port. I do not recall the exact year, but I would say it probably more than 20 years ago.

[Dr PR]

I have been working on a CAD model of the USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 for 14 years now, and it is just about finished. When I have time I will start a build log on MSW (unfortunately, there is no place in the gallery for CAD models). I have been posting on The Ship Model Forum and on my web site https://www.okieboat.com/.

 

Doing the actual work to build a 3D CAD model is faster than creating physical parts - if you are an experienced CAD driver. For one, you don't have the problem of doing the work to make a part only to learn later that it is not correct and you have to build another. It is very easy and fast to make changes to the existing model, and you don't have the expense of wasted materials (just wasted electricity).

 

But if you factor in the learning time for the CAD program it is much longer. I have been using CAD programs since 1988 so doing the work is easy for me. It would be much more difficult for a novice.

 

****

 

The best reason for making a 3D model is that you can be sure the parts fit together correctly when you get around to making a physical model. I started on a 1:96 scale real model of the ship and soon ran into a number of problems that I could not figure out from the original blueprints.

 

In one case I finally realized that the original 2D blueprints had to be wrong! The parts of the light mast above the bridge could not fit together in three dimensions the way the designer had drawn them in 2D. The diagonal support members for the mast passed through supports for a foot rail on the mast (see attached picture) . I decided to make a 3D CAD model of the parts to see how the parts fit together and confirmed the problem. Fortunately I had many high resolution photos and I could see how the shipyard workers got around the problem. They just attached the diagonal support members at a lower position on the mast, with the foot rail supports above them. Using "photoguestimation" I calculated how far below the attachment point shown in the blueprints they had actually constructed the mast on the ship.

 

A similar problem arose when I was trying to figure out how long the main vertical members of a radar tower were (attached picture). The blueprints show the side and front views, but because all parts joined at angles in three dimensions I would have to use three dimensional trigonometry to calculate the actual lengths of the parts from the 2D blueprints (did you ever learn 3D trig?). It was much easier, and faster, to just build the 3D model of the tower framing. And the 3D model  showed not only the lengths of all the parts but the actual three axis angles that they fit together, allowing me to construct an accurate jig for putting together the pieces of the real model. I would have wasted a lot of time and materials, and experienced a lot of frustration, trying to piece all of it together one piece at a time with the real model.

 

****

 

Most of the 14 years that I worked on the CAD model were spent gathering blueprints, plans, data sheets and photos.  The OK City underwent many modifications during it's 19 year service as a CLG. Something was changed nearly every time we went into home port. This meant that to build an accurate model I had to pick a specific date to model, and then figure out what modifications had been made by that date to the configuration shown in the blueprints. I also had to rule out modifications shown in later photos that had not been added by the model date. I have 24 pages of notes describing changes over the years.

 

I visited the last Cleveland class ship and CLG, the USS Little Rock CG-4 museum ship in Buffalo, New York. It was the sister ship to the Okie Boat. There I photographed and measured many of the parts of the ship, making dimensioned drawings. I also searched for data sheets and manuals for hundreds of parts on the ship.

 

Research took far longer than the actual building of the model. But it allowed me to create a very accurate 1:1 CAD model of the ship, with details as small as 3/16 inch such as rivets, screws, bolts, nuts, etc.

 

****

 

The CAD model phase is about finished. Now I can resume work on the 1:96 scale model with confidence as I create each part. And I can use the CAD model to create some parts with 3D printing - although my experience with 3D printed parts has not been encouraging. They are not an accepted material for museum quality models. But they can be used to create molds for lost wax castings. I can also create 2D plans and also drawings for photoetching.

 

Phil

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Dr PR

[rshousha]

Hi Gaetan, 

 

I use Solidworks professionally and enjoy building models in 3D as a hobby. I find it most interesting to see how the parts fit, I don't need glue or paint, and I can zoom in to areas as much as I like. I can also build models wherever I am, from my office in Montreal, to the resort in St-Lucia. 

 

I've attached a picture of my latest project, a 1:6 scale version of a western stagecoach. Of course, I have done many ships but you seemed to be interested in the textures and colors that you can get. 

 

In this model, you can turn the wheels, apply the brakes, change direction, and even see the functioning of the support mechanism for the passenger compartment, which is still "under construction". 

 

Of course, there is a drawing made for each part, if someone ever wanted to make this in the future. Even the spokes are all separate pieces. 

 

 

 

Best Regards, 

Rick