Scottish Maid Rigging Pt3 deck eyebolts - vangs, topsail sheets

[gthursby]

On the Atesania plans, some lines such as the vangs and topsail sheets appear to terminate at eyebolts on the deck. How would this be done? I'm guessing the the lines are not just tied to the eyebolts.

Thanks again to all who have responded to my earlier questions - I seem to be spending more time trying to understand what to do with the different elements of rigging than doing the actual physical work. I think that I'm getting there, albeit slowly, though doubtless there will be many more questions to come!

[mtaylor]

The Scottish Maid kit isn't the most accurate as far as rigging and pretty much stylized.  Many of the lines you mention are just tied off at eyebolts or various bits and pieces and do them properly would require some research and additional parts such as blocks. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by mtaylor

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Look at the bright side: by the time you’ve checked the Veracity of all the lines on your Artisana Latina plans, you will be an expert on schooner rigging! And the other good news is that there are a LOT of schooners very similar to the subject of your model, still at sea and photographed every day. The documentation is available if you’re willing to dig for it.

[gthursby]

It wasn't supposed to be like this! I bought the kit as a retirement project about 3 years ago (it's been slow going!) and I naively thought that all I would have to do would be to follow the plans and instructions and all would be fine. It soon became apparent that this was not the case; the planking scheme was nonsensical so I had to find out how to do that a bit more realistic. Then I decided to research the ship to make it less anonymous and discovered that the method of locating the bowsprit differed from what McGregor described as the builder's characteristic method and was shown as such on his plans. Various inconsistencies  have made me more and more suspicious of Artesania's plans, hence some of the questions here. My wife has pointed out that no-one else looking at the model would know what was right and what was wrong. This is true, but not the point; to me it is a waste of time making something that I think is badly inaccurate; I am trying to do it the best as I can for my own satisfaction rather than for anyone else. I guess that must be the same for most people here.

[amateur]

Yup, as far as I understand the business of model building, there are two ways to go with a kit: just plain out-ot-the-box without thinking, or

discarding parts (sometimes very large parts) of it, and just try to improve on the kit.

Some even say that that second route will inevitably lead to model building without kits. 

 

But look on the bright side: three years of fun from one box. That is not too bad

 

Jan

 

 

[mtaylor]

Well... you've hit upon the problem with kits.  AL, while popular, does a lot of seemingly weird things even fictitious ships and one-size fits all for standard parts.  There are kit makers out there who are more accurate but it comes down to price point (for selling) and cost of manufacture/development so there always will be issues with accuracy.  The result is builders build out of the box, semi-scratch to correct problems (or buy after market parts such as ship's tiller wheels, cannon, etc), or just go totally scratch. 

[gthursby]

I've downloaded Petersson's Rigging Period Fore and Aft Craft onto my Kindle. Hopefully that will help me

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I’m sure you don’t want to hear this, and it pains me to have to tell you, but Petersson’s Book is a trainwreck. It’s FULL of wrong information. He based his “research” on three unnamed individual models, aparently tracing the run of each line and providing each with its own clearly drawn illustration. A great idea! Unfortunately either he or the model builder or both have made errors almost too numerable to count. Almost every page of his book has at least one error in it, small or large. Usually the errors are concerned with the lead of multiple part tackles, stuff like Spanish  Burtens. Often the problems are simple matters of where the hauling end emerges from otherwise OK gear, but surprisingly often the rigging he’s illustrated couldn’t function properly at all as drawn. Which is amazing considering he’s describing it as a book on rigging. And many here tout his work as useful and valuable. I’m saying it does more harm than good due to the huge numbers of inaccuracies. The fact that he’s reached so many people with so much bad information is, in my opinion, bad for the entire hobby.

[gthursby]

20 hours ago, JerseyCity Frankie said:

I’m sure you don’t want to hear this, and it pains me to have to tell you, but Petersson’s Book is a trainwreck. It’s FULL of wrong information. He based his “research” on three unnamed individual models, aparently tracing the run of each line and providing each with its own clearly drawn illustration. A great idea! Unfortunately either he or the model builder or both have made errors almost too numerable to count. Almost every page of his book has at least one error in it, small or large. Usually the errors are concerned with the lead of multiple part tackles, stuff like Spanish  Burtens. Often the problems are simple matters of where the hauling end emerges from otherwise OK gear, but surprisingly often the rigging he’s illustrated couldn’t function properly at all as drawn. Which is amazing considering he’s describing it as a book on rigging. And many here tout his work as useful and valuable. I’m saying it does more harm than good due to the huge numbers of inaccuracies. The fact that he’s reached so many people with so much bad information is, in my opinion, bad for the entire hobby.

So what would you recommend as a reliable source of into for a vessel of the type that I am building?

[JerseyCity Frankie]

That’s the rub. You won’t find an equivalent book with clear illustrations of each bit of rigging for ships that are the subject of the disputed book. Which is sad. The next best option would technically be Howard Chapelle’s The American Fishing Schooner but he doesn’t deal with topsails nor does he illustrate the individual lines AND his book is more expensive -but still worth owning. It’s odd that there isn’t a better book on the subject of schooners Lugers and cutters, all between two covers. Maybe one day Petersson will re-edit his book to remove all its problems? 

[JerseyCity Frankie]

This whole issue brings to light, for me, the need for some NEW options for model rigging. lee’s Masting and rigging of English ships of war is always going to be timeless and essential. But it’s limited to three masted Square Rigged ship rigs. when when you look around for books that cover other rigs, you can’t find much of a similar quality and certainly not between two covers. That’s why I find Petersson’s nonsense so tragic. Doubly tragic since there IS accurate material available and existing traditionally rigged vessels in every ocean that Petersson could have looked at but instead he chose to base his work exclusively on those three unidentified models.

[Roger Pellett]

Try this,  Schooner Sunset: The Last British Sailing Coasters.  Look it up on Amazon.  I don’t have a copy but it would appear to be the British equivalent of the Chapelle fishing Schooner book mentioned in Frank’s post above.  According to the review the book was written by a working sailor and includes much detailed technical information.

 

Roger

[Gregory]

Good find!

 

From the synopsis:

 

Quote

....magnificent collection of drawings which depict every aspect of the ships' construction and rig. Information on the smallest item of equipment is to be found in these pages and is presented in a way which could only ever have been done by one who had first-hand experience.

 

[glennreader]

When you state that you have researched the ship you mention the McGregor plans. Did you view or obtain copies from the Brunel collection? The reason I ask is that I was given this kit for Christmas and knowing about its short comings I intend to try and view these and possibly obtain copies but have not yet been in touch to find out how to go about this.

 

Glenn

[Dr PR]

I have to comment on Jersey City Frankies harsh criticism of Lennarth Petersson's Rigging Period Fore and Aft Craft, Naval Institute Press, 2015. I have been studying schooner rigging for several years now, and I have used Petersson's book. As far as schooner rigging goes it seems to be pretty accurate. I have found other references, drawings and photos of topsail schooners that show most of what is illustrated in the book.

 

Frankie says the drawings are based upon an unnamed models. But Petersson tells where he found the models. The schooner model is a model if the Baltimore clipper Experiment that was built in 1808 in New York and sold to the Swedish Navy in 1812. The model is in the Naval Museum, Karlskrona, in Sweden. Petersson says it is not an exact copy of the Experiment.

 

Frankie mentions an improperly rigged "Spanish burton" in the book. I can't find a single example of a Spanish burton. However, there is an example of a properly rigged ordinary burton tackle in the drawing of the main tackle and top on page 75. This configuration is much more common than the Spanish burton.

 

I do agree completely with Frankie that there is a dearth of period information about the schooner rig. Most books just describe the practice of rigging large square-rigged warships. Very little seems to have been written about schooner rigs, and what does exist is usually for modern racing yachts and fishing schooners.

 

I would be surprised if many, if any, schooners were rigged exactly as Petersson's drawings show. Looking at photos of modern topsail schooners I can find just about everything Petersson depicts on one ship or another, but no two modern schooners appear to be rigged the same way, with the possible exception of the French Navy's Etoile and Belle Poule. Petersson shows both halliards and lifts for the topsail yards. Some modern schooners have both, some use only a halliard, and some have only lifts.

 

Here are two examples of schooner rigging Petersson shows that are unusual. He shows vangs on the fore and main gaffs. However very few books show vangs on schooner gaffs. And most photos of modern schooners do not have them. But Etoile and Belle Poule do have them. He shows bowlines on the course and topsail but I have tried in vain to find a single example of a topsail schooner with these lines. They are more typical of large square rigged ships. But these are legitimate rigging methods for some ships.

 

The real problem is that it is possible that no two schooners were rigged exactly the same way. Owners and Captains often had their own ideas of what was "right" and that may have changed over time with experience on a particular ship. Often there were several ways to set up rigging to accomplish the same thing. But there were commonly accepted ways to do things. This is probably why there are few rigging plans for period sailing ships. They weren't needed. Everyone knew how to rig a ship.