Venetian Round Ship c. 13th century by woodrat - FINISHED - 1:32 scale - fully framed

[Louie da fly]

Beautiful work, as usual, Dick. Both the rudder mount and the "aftercastle" (if that's its right name).

 

How are you fixing the rudder to the through beams? Lawrence Mott was very careful to say the lashings in his diagrams were only speculative.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

1 hour ago, Louie da fly said:

.

 

How are you fixing the rudder to the through beams? Lawrence Mott was very careful to say the lashings in his diagrams were only speculative.

 

Steven

The rudders, strictly speaking, won't be "lashed" to the throughbeams, rather held by 3 point pressure generated by the rudder "downhaul" which pulls the rudder onto the aft edge of the lower throughbeam and the forward edge of the upper beam.  If that is as clear as mud in a beerbottle, the model will make it clear. This is seen in a number of illustrations by Veneziano:

 

[Louie da fly]

Very sneaky. And as Gene Wilder said in Young Frankenstein "IT - COULD - WORK!!!" But would it be secure enough in a rough sea? I get visions of the thing whacking back and forth and coming loose as the waves hit it.

 

(Of course I'm not totally without an ulterior motive - I'm currently trying to work out how to do the side rudders for my own build.)

 

Steven

[woodrat]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

 But would it be secure enough in a rough sea? I get visions of the thing whacking back and forth and coming loose as the waves hit it.

 

 

 

Steven

That is what the curved guides would prevent. There was also a rudder "uphaul" which used to raise the rudder. Additional lashing would be added in a heavy sea. But  I am not sure if swing mounts had developed early enough to be seen on a dromon.

 

This is a galley from the Michael of Rhodes manuscript showing a quarter rudder raised and being secured by what I have interpreted as curved guide timbers

 

This is one of the black sea wrecks of a similar vessel showing the quarter rudders and the throughbeams. I think I can see evidence of a swing mount....maybe?

Edited March 4, 2019 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Very interesting, and showing your usual thorough research to arrive at a solution. I look forward to developments.

 

As far as swing rudders go for Byzantine ships, the pictorial evidence is very sketchy indeed. They mostly don't bother to show any kind of attachment for the rudder.

 

If I recall correctly, rudder "uphauls" and "downhauls"  often appear in contemporary representations about the 14th century, but the earliest representations I can find are some 12th century mosaics in San Marco in Venice that show a downhaul.

 

Having looked at my picture files I've also found several more examples of the swing mount in contemporary representations. You may already have them, but I'm quite happy to send them to you (or post them here) if you want. 

 

Steven

Edited March 5, 2019 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

12 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

 

Having looked at my picture files I've also found several more examples of the swing mount in contemporary representations. You may already have them, but I'm quite happy to send them to you (or post them here) if you want. 

 

Steven

It would only be fair to share them with our colleagues. Pray send them here.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

By all means:

1372 Lorenzo Veneziano - Miracle of St Nicholas

12th century San Pietro in Ciel d'Oro - Pavia. Note the ship at the top has its rudder swung into the "up" position.

 

Giotto di Bondone (1226-1337) - Navicella 

Milano - Church of Sant'Eustorgio, chapel of St Peter the Martyr - 1339

12th century mosaic - translatio of St Mark - San Marco, Venice

14th century Greek Romance of Alexander

 

Plus the one at https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/rib-vault-with-the-navigation-of-st-peter-by-andrea-di-news-photo/494733296 which I hit upload trouble with, so I've given the URL.

 

And this is the kind of thing you get from Byzantine representations (unfortunately!). No detail at all of the suspension method.

I hope this is of help. I find it fascinating.

 

Steven

 

 

[woodrat]

Thanks Steven. A couple of these are new to me. The Veneziano in particular shows detail of the poop deck which I was puzzling over and is very helpful. Some of the others such as the San Pietro in Ciel d'Oro - Pavia show the curved guide timbers much as I have done them. The Sant'Eustorgio is gorgeous and shows the rudder hoist and downhaul ropes well but looks like a box mount . It is hard to see how the rudder could swing up.

Cheers

Dick

Edited March 6, 2019 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

On 3/7/2019 at 2:11 AM, woodrat said:

The Sant'Eustorgio is gorgeous and shows the rudder hoist and downhaul ropes well but looks like a box mount . It is hard to see how the rudder could swing up.

Yes, the only thing I can think of (as it seems that having uphaul and downhaul it ought to swing) is perhaps the beam at the back could be removed? It doesn't affect the present model anyway as you're using a different method, but it would be interesting to come up with a solution as there seem to be far more representations of box-mounts than any other type.

 

In the meantime I have to figure out what I'm going to do with my own rudders; back to Lawrence Mott, I think, and see if I can get any ideas there.

 

[1/4 hour later] I've just been looking at Mott's paper and he was of the opinion that a swing mount was a variation of the aft-mounted rudder, but I can see that your braced rudder version would also work well. (Explanatory note for those not into side-rudders: aft mounted means two through-beams one above the other, with the lower one somewhat aft of the upper, and the rudder fixed to the after side of both beams. Braced is similar, but the rudder shaft passes between the two beams. Mott's paper discusses the relative advantages and disadvantages of the various systems.)  

 

Steven

Edited March 8, 2019 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

For what it's worth, having read and re read Lawrence Mott and reviewed contemporary iconography, I am coming to the view that most artists did not know what they were drawing or carving. They represented what they thought they saw. They might, for instance see curved rudder guides in a swing mount and interpret them as ring or box mounts or even through-the-hull jobbies. Artists are unreliable draughtsmen but produce tantalising representations. I await the publication of archaeological results from the Black Sea. Were any rudders found at Yenikapi?

Dick

Edited May 27, 2019 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

4 hours ago, woodrat said:

Were any rudders found at Yenikapi?

Not as far as I know, Dick. Not all the results are out, but though one of the Yenikapi galleys had almost the whole of one side still in existence (including two or three oarports) nobody seems to have mentioned any rudders - or even oars, for that matter. But who knows what the Black Sea finds will turn up?

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Thanks Steven

Attached is a rough draft of the rudder and its tackle as I see it. Rudder curved guides are not shown. The hoist and "uphaul" are shown.

The forces holding the rudder to the throughbeam and upper beam are shown as red arrows. This system will allow easy re-installation of the rudders and easy raising . Of course the uphaul would need to be cast off to allow the hoist to raise the rudder. I will demonstrate this later when I have made the rudders.

 

 

It is rather like the system shown in Veneziano paintings ( one of the more reliable artists)

 

 

 

Cheers

Dick

Edited March 8, 2019 by woodrat

[Binho]

Hey Dick, really cool ship you have so far! Really liked your Cocha model as well!

 

Maybe you have seen this already, but the Southampton University Archaeology Twitter feed has recently been posting more info on the Black Sea Mediterranean round ship wreck you posted a screenshot of. The ship has been carbon dated to 1160-1260 AD, so it's a bit earlier than yours. One of the tweets has four nice high resolution closeups of the stern structures though, including the rudders and their mounts. I've tried embedding the tweet thread below - hopefully it works! If you click through, it's the third tweet in the thread that has the photos. There's a fly around of the model as well, and a top-down Digital Elevation Model (DEM).

 

 

Southampton University also has an article about that ship, explaining the differences between Italian ships of the time and Northern European Cogs. Most of the info is pretty basic, but there is a nice reconstruction of the wreck by Prof. Jon Adams, one of the lead archaeologists on the Black Sea project. Here's the article link, and the reconstruction drawing:

 

And lastly, this wreck makes an appearance in the documentary about the Black Sea project that was released last month (Ghosts of the Deep: Black Sea Shipwrecks), starting at around 00:28:00. You get another nice shot of the stern structure, as well as those interesting timberhead/bitts right behind the foremast, and the stem post. Here in the US the documentary is available for $3.00 in HD on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NV92WF8?pf_rd_p=1cac67ce-697a-47be-b2f5-9ae91aab54f2&pf_rd_r=V91XKZBP85AN559R7D17

 

Sadly, none of the Black Sea wrecks have been properly published yet. I'm assuming it will be a few years, knowing how these things go!

 

All the best,

 

Alberto

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Binho
Got the name of the documentary wrong

[Louie da fly]

Thanks for this Alberto. This is very valuable info for anyone interested in mediaeval Mediterranean vessels.

 

Steven

[druxey]

Your reconstruction is logical and mechanically sound, Dick. I'd buy it!

[woodrat]

Thanks, Alberto for the links to Twitter. They did work and I have had a good look at the mediaeval merchantman from 13th century. The rudder mount seems to tally with mine and I feel somewhat encouraged. The Contarina I wreck upon which I largely based my reconstruction has been tentatively dated to 1300 and so can really be regarded as a 13th century vessel contemporaneous with the Black Sea example. Unfortunately Amazon wont ship the video to Australia and Amazon Australia has never heard of it. It will turn up somewhere, I suppose.

I am now turning my attention to the bow which is more bluff than the Black Sea vessel.

 

Here are pictures of the quarter rudders in the down and up position.

 

 

Cheers

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Looks really good  and very workable, Dick. I like the "aerofoil" rudder, and the poop superstructure is really impressive.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

19 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

Looks really good  and very workable, Dick. I like the "aerofoil" rudder, and the poop superstructure is really impressive.

 

Steven

I closely read Lawrence Mott's thesis. the poop superstructure is based solely on Veneziano's Pala Feriale transport of St Mark, as is the bow structure (to follow soon). The length of the rudders is 1/3 of keel length (Fabrica di Galere and Michael of Rhodes)

 

Having fun.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Am I right in thinking the top of the curved guides is closed with a removable piece, so the rudder can be removed in port?

[woodrat]

12 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Am I right in thinking the top of the curved guides is closed with a removable piece, so the rudder can be removed in port?

No. The aft end of the curved guides (inner and outer) is permanently fixed to an extended beam. To remove the rudder when in port all that is required is to disconnect the rudder hoist and "uphaul". The rudder is reversed out of the mount with the help of a boat. The rudder then is floated off and towed away by one of the boats. It is reinstalled in the opposite manner, again with the help of a boat. That is my interpretation. Also, do you think that the rudder blades were coated with pitch? The MIchael of Rhodes manuscript shows the blades blackened.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

2 hours ago, woodrat said:

Also, do you think that the rudder blades were coated with pitch? The MIchael of Rhodes manuscript shows the blades blackened.

Could be, could be. Most of the above 14th century representations (where colour is visible) show black rudders - though the hulls are also black. Maybe they were coated with pitch as well?

 

The Cantigas de Santa Maria (late 12th century) though the hulls are brown, have black rudders on some of the ships but not all. Two hundred years different, so perhaps not relevant.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Here are pics showing the framing of the bow and hawse timbers which need to be strong.

 

 

 

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Beautiful work, Dick. Really enjoying following this build.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

On 3/18/2019 at 11:06 PM, Louie da fly said:

Could be, could be. Most of the above 14th century representations (where colour is visible) show black rudders - though the hulls are also black. Maybe they were coated with pitch as well?

 

 

Steven

Steven, I have had a message from Prof. Mauro Bondioli. In his learned opinion, rudder blades were indeed coated with pitch.

Dick

[Louie da fly]

That's really interesting, Dick. A nice bit of detective work on your part.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

The hull framing is complete and looks more tidy. Now to plan the deck beams

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dick

Edited March 21, 2019 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Looks just like a bought one!

 

Seriously, Dick, that's beautiful work, and it really does look like the picture you're basing it on.

 

Steven

[Javlin]

That is a very Nice Build you got going Dick!You do very precise/clean and a well thought out piece of art/work Kevin

[Binho]

Man, this is looking good! I really like the look of that stern structure. Interesting the rudders were covered in pitch, makes sense. Love all the research that goes in to your build.

[Louie da fly]

3 hours ago, Binho said:

Love all the research that goes in to your build.

Me too 😀

 

Steven