raising and lowering an anchor on a sloop

[timboat]

I know how they raised and lower the anchor on a man-o-war or frigate, but how did they do it on a sloop...that didn't have a capstan, windlass or riding bitts?  How where they able to haul up the anchor?  Did they bent two tackles on the cable and secured the other end of the tackles to a ring bolt somewhere and hauled it up that way, switching between the two tackles?

 

If they didn't have a fish davit how did the fish the shank up?  Did they run a tackle from the crossjack to the shank with the running end going to the deck?

 

I'm also guessing when riding at anchor they secured the cable to the deck with stoppers from the deck ring bolts.

[trippwj]

Well, to start the basic premise is only partially correct.  A "Sloop of War" is just an unrated vessel with guns but not enough to be a 6th rate.  Rig could be anything (brig, snow, ship etc.).

 

Looking briefly at a few vessels rated as sloops I see capstans and, on at least 1, what appears to be an anchor windlass.

 

If, on the other hand, there is no capstan or windlass, I suspect that the anchor is raised in the same way as cargo - using the yards as the attach point for block and tackle arrangements. 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by trippwj
typos corrected.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Why, I wonder, do you feel there isn’t anchor handling gear aboard? Are you looking at a particular vessel? I’m certain there will be a windlass at the very least on any vessel over forty of fifty feet in length, simply because you CANT handle the anchor and cable without one. 

a very good book that covers many deck evolutions and practices at sea in the age of sailing ships is Seamanship in the Age of Sail by John Harland. Kinda expensive but certainly worth every penny since you won’t  find better coverage of the subject anywhere else between two covers. 

[Talos]

2 hours ago, JerseyCity Frankie said:

Why, I wonder, do you feel there isn’t anchor handling gear aboard? Are you looking at a particular vessel? I’m certain there will be a windlass at the very least on any vessel over forty of fifty feet in length, simply because you CANT handle the anchor and cable without one. 

a very good book that covers many deck evolutions and practices at sea in the age of sailing ships is Seamanship in the Age of Sail by John Harland. Kinda expensive but certainly worth every penny since you won’t  find better coverage of the subject anywhere else between two covers. 

Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.

 

[timboat]

I mean a true sloop, not a brig, snow, brigantine, cutter.

 

3 hours ago, JerseyCity Frankie said:

Why, I wonder, do you feel there isn’t anchor handling gear aboard?

Most models I see of a sloop don't include a windlass, a capstan or riding bitts.

https://modelshipworld.com/uploads/gallery/album_266/gallery_2684_266_123723.jpg

http://modelshipbuilder.com/e107_files/public/1417092562_4_FT0_mediator-final1_.jpg

 

It's not easy to just attribute the issue to an error in the drawings and craftsmanship of people's model.  They spent a lot of time researching their models to get everything right, so I'm compelled to believe some sloops didn't have windlasses, capstans or ridding bitts.

 

4 hours ago, trippwj said:

If, on the other hand, there is no capstan or windlass, I suspect that the anchor is raised in the same way as cargo - using the yards as the attach point for block and tackle arrangements.

I can see that to fish that anchor shank, but I don't see how it could raise the anchor from the ocean floor.  You would have to constantly bend two tackles to the cable with nippers, one after another as the anchor is raised, and remove them at some point.  And if the tackle is going to the yards how would they remove the tackle from the cable?  They would have to wait until they can detach it at the yard, and then let the cable drop or lower it.  Wouldn't it have been easier to attach the other end of the tackle to a ring bolt on the deck?

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by timboat

[Roger Pellett]

Howard Chapelle ponders this question in one of his books.  I do not have access to my library at the moment, but I believe that it was his Search for Speed Under Sail.

 

Roger

[trippwj]

According to Steel, a sloop of 200 tons burthen would have 3 anchors of 15 cwt each and one kedge anchor of 3 cwt.  

 

He also offers detail on the vsrious cables, hawsers etc. for each rate. 

 

[mtaylor]

Like a lot of things, the yards knew what was needed and things don't always show up in prints that were part of the ship.  Is there a contract available for the vessel you're interested in as it should list what was there.

 

 

[timboat]

I'm making a 3d model of a generic sloop circa 1715.  I thought that they were omitted from the plans for simplicity sake, but then why does everyone make ship models without those parts?

 

To be honest, I don't think they had riding bitts for some sloops.  Instead I think they rigged stoppers from the ring bolts on the deck and that was sufficient to hold the cable while riding.

[jud]

On 5/8/2018 at 9:15 AM, trippwj said:

According to Steel, a sloop of 200 tons burthen would have 3 anchors of 15 cwt each and one kedge anchor of 3 cwt.  

 

He also offers detail on the vsrious cables, hawsers etc. for each rate. 

 

112#s per cwt, yep, be it a windless or capstan, they had something to handle the mass of anchor and cable plus the weight of the water soaked into the cable above the waterline as it came aboard.

 

[timboat]

Does the sloop Providence have a windlass or capstan?

 

I can't find any pictures of Providence with a capstan.  She clearly doesn't have a windlass.  I know it's a replica, but surely they would have included a capstan if she did carry one.

Edited May 11, 2018 by timboat

[lmagna]

Hello timboat

Here is a picture of the bow area of the replica Providence. If you look to the left side of the picture you will see that she has a modern day electric double drum captstain.

Edited May 11, 2018 by lmagna

[timboat]

Ok, awesome picture.  That cannon though, oh Lord.  So it would be okay to assume that a traditional windlass would be in its place in the real Providence.

 

Does the providence have a metal frame?  Then it's not a realistic replica, like the Le Hermione is.

Edited May 11, 2018 by timboat

[lmagna]

Parts of the frame are steel as are the required USCG WT bulkheads. The rest is described as composite/fiberglass. The deck is wood. She was conceived by John Millar and designed and built by Don Gilkison and naval architect Charles Wittholz.

 

A number of changes were made from the "Historic ideal" due to both modern day USCG requirements and the desires of the original developers, but the same would have to be said about the Le Hermione or any other historical replica ship built in modern times.

Edited May 11, 2018 by lmagna

[timboat]

Someone sent me a small excerpt from one of Chapelle's books "The absence of a windlass, or capstan, in many of the American schooners of this period requires explanation. The relatively large crews, particularly in privateers or letters-of-marque, could manhandle the cable and anchors by means of tackles stopped to the cable. The tackles were double or treble purchaces laid out on deck on each side, one block secured aft and the other to the cable near the hawse. The tackes were worked alternately, and the running block was secured by strops (short pieces of rope) passed around the hook or eye of the block and then around the cable. The strop was passed so that it jambed on the cable and could either be quickley thrown of or secured. "

 

So it seems it was possible to forego the use of a windlass or capstan for light anchors.

 

But here's another question.  How was the cat stopper rigged on a sloop with a anchor typical of a ship this size?  I'm assuming it was a simple slip knot passed around the cat head and the anchor ring with the running end leading aft clear of the laidout anchor cable.  I would image a couple strong sailors would be able to pull it to drop the anchor.

[jud]

A row of half hitches,' could rig it like a stopper attached to a Bit for a mooring line'. would do it and if working two rigs, as soon as the tension was taken up by the new purchase, simple to cast off the half hitches and pull the block forward for a new purchase.

jud  

Edited May 22, 2018 by jud

[timboat]

Jud, normal people would have no clue what you just said and would simply assume you're having a stroke.

 

I'm still quite puzzled by the cat stopper (that's what they called the piece of rope that dropped the anchor, right?).  I did some research have found how to tie a Farrimon friction hitch and it would seem possible that knot with a good, strong rope could hold up a 1 1/2 ton anchor on a cat head, but apparently this knot was invented in 2008.  I know large ships in the 1800s had a metal device for releasing the anchor, but I seriously doubt they had something like that for sloops in 1715.

 

[jud]

Look up Mooring Line Stopper. The image shows what I have used to hold bow lines when taking the line from the Capstan and securing the single to the bits aboard a Fletcher Class Destroyer. That hitch you show looks like it would be a slow way to make a quick release hitch, release by grabbing the bitter end and jerking out of the loop should release it, might try it but there are other ways that are quicker to make. The Stoppers we used were made from line about 3/4 the mooring line size and were tapered down to a small size by removing fiber with about a 6 foot working length. Quick and easy to put on and remove, After looking them up you should see some other methods, I never used them but see some advantages especially if lifting an anchor and using 2 tackles for the lift. Stroke, no thanks, had one, lost the right eye.

 

          

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by jud

[timboat]

Please excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth.  Probably not the best way to describe how confusing naval jargon sounds.  I think you're referring to the deck stoppers that held the anchor cable while riding.  I meant the piece of rope or device that held the anchor to the cat head so the cat block could be removed and then when ready a rope was pulled to release the knot or the device, letting go of the anchor to fall into the ocean.

[jud]

Reason I refereed to the Mooring line in both posts, go ahead and remove your foot from that location, we all find our feet in uncomfortable positions occasionally.

[Dowmer]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 11:03 AM, timboat said:

Someone sent me a small excerpt from one of Chapelle's books "The absence of a windlass, or capstan, in many of the American schooners of this period requires explanation. The relatively large crews, particularly in privateers or letters-of-marque, could manhandle the cable and anchors by means of tackles stopped to the cable. The tackles were double or treble purchaces laid out on deck on each side, one block secured aft and the other to the cable near the hawse. The tackes were worked alternately, and the running block was secured by strops (short pieces of rope) passed around the hook or eye of the block and then around the cable. The strop was passed so that it jambed on the cable and could either be quickley thrown of or secured. "

 

So it seems it was possible to forego the use of a windlass or capstan for light anchors.

 

But here's another question.  How was the cat stopper rigged on a sloop with a anchor typical of a ship this size?  I'm assuming it was a simple slip knot passed around the cat head and the anchor ring with the running end leading aft clear of the laidout anchor cable.  I would image a couple strong sailors would be able to pull it to drop the anchor.

 

Tim,

This may be a bit late, but if you were still looking for contemporary references and not modern models for sloops, I would recommend you refer to Henrik Chapman's work Architectura Navalis 1768.  Virtually all the small sloops and cutters from several nations referenced during this period have a Windlass.  I'm not saying that all sloops and cutters had a capstan or windlass, but I would say that not having one was more the exception and not the rule.  Particularly merchantmen, since they had fewer crew to man the tackles etc.

[AndrewNaylor]

Two words

MAN DROLICS as everything was done back then MAN DROLICS  to raise and lower the sails MAN DROLICS where used to tack and jibe the ship MAN DROLICS to steer and MAN DROLICS to launch the ships boats 

Maybe not the answer you where looking for but in reality the real answer with a little help from a few block and tackles 

Andy