Victory's cannons wheels

[ronald305]

Hi there 

   I am getting ready to work on some of the Victory's cannons and notice on the photos of her cannons the wheels are a gray's color not black why Model space victory's cannons are black I do not know anyway I would like to how to achieve in getting the wheels the correct color of gray, plus I would like to know if the seems are suppose to be visible on the carriages  or a solid  yellow Ochre like on the real cannons thank you

                                 Ronald  

Edited November 30, 2018 by ronald305
typo

[Morgan]

Ronald,

 

I would go with your personal choice for aesthetic or historical reasons. The ex-curator of HMS Victory Peter Goodwin examined the carpenters records preceding the Battle of Trafalgar and he identified that there was no red paint used, the colours throughout the ship were black, yellow, white, verdigris and a very small amount of Prussian Blue, all of which would usually be cut with linseed oil. This was published in a 2013 article of The Mariner’s Mirror (journal of the Society for Nautical Reearch).

 

Chances are the carriages were yellow (ochre) with black wheels.

 

Gary

Edited November 30, 2018 by Morgan

[ronald305]

black wheels Gary I am not doubting you but the photos on the real Victory show a grays color  wheels I can go with black if it is correct aesthetically

                           Ronald 

19 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Ronald,

 

I would go with your personal choice for aesthetic or historical reasons. The ex-curator of HMS Victory Peter Goodwin examined the carpenters records preceding the Battle of Trafalgar and he identified that there was no red paint used, the colours throughout the ship were black, yellow, white, verdigris and a very small amount of Prussian Blue, all of which would usually be cut with linseed oil. This was published in a 2013 article of The Mariner’s Mirror (journal of the Society for Nautical Reearch).

 

Chances are the carriages were yellow (ochre) with black wheels.

 

Gary

 

[Morgan]

Ronald,

 

Ongoing research hasn’t identified the colours of gun carriages and wheels, but what we know is that the black hull is actually a deep slate grey (Victory’s new colours), so grey on the wheels wouldn’t be wrong, the raw paints were often mixed with other paints and oils so it is unlikely any of the colours were a deep black or deep yellow.

 

Gary

[ronald305]

all righty  thanks Gary 

     I'll stay with the black wheels 

                               Ronald 

[dafi]

Haven´t seen the picture, but could it be that this is no grey color but a silver patina of the bare wood?

 

XXXDAn

[Morgan]

Going back to Goodwin's notes these are the paints supplied to Victory:

 

" The overall analysis of paint related issues recorded in the carpenter’s accounts in the Victory in 1805 conclude the following points: 

 

1.    Lime and glue were employed for whitewashing the ship internally along the ship’s sides along the middle and lower gundecks and equally extensively throughout the orlop and within the hold.

2.    Black varnish was applied for yards, tops, cross-trees and quite probably on the topsail and sheet bitts of each mast. 

3.    Linseed oil was mixed with the paint pigments.

4.    Tar was applied for blacking the wales, especially at the ‘bends’, such as the main wale near the ship’s water line.

5.    Black oakum was equally applied. 

 

The document is exceedingly thorough in accounting for all paint colours or pigments used. In this host of information there is a remarkable absence of reference to the red ochre paint that is supposedly synonymous with warships of the period. Red paint applied to the inner faces and edges of gun port lids, gun carriages, gun port sills, lintels and side facings is generally thought to be a predominant (and perhaps iconic) paint feature on the Admiralty Board ship models. Red is also evident in many paintings by recognized marine artists, for example, Brooking, Cleveley, Dodd, Loutherbourg, Luny and Pocock, to name but a few. 

 

These are the relevant stores supplied to Victory at Portsmouth on 31 August 1805: 

 

1.    White – 120 lb

2.    Yellow – 34 lb

3.    Black Varnish – 66 gallons

4.    Glue – 12 lb

5.    Lime – 8 bushels

6.    Whitewash brushes – 6 

 

Then on 2 September 1805: 

 

1.    Yellow – 350 lb

2.    Black – 150 lb

3.    White – 150 lb

4.    Oil. – 47 gallons

5.    White – 66 lb

6.    Black – 13 lb

7.    Yellow – 78 lb

8.    Verdigris (sic) – 5 lb

9.    Prussian Blue – 1 lb 

 

Then on 6 September 1805: 

 

1.    White – 86 lb

2.    Yellow – 234 lb

3.    Oil. – 2 1/2 gallons

4.    Black Varnish – 66 gallons. lb”

 

It may well be that they used the black varnish, which depending on dilution could be greyish and semi translucent, but who knows those gun carriage wheels have been replaced long since!

 

Just to correct my note on the red paint I mentioned above Goodwin also says "No evidence has come to light indicating when the Victory changed her original red-painted inboard works to yellow ochre, but it is considered highly likely that she had red inboard works when she was the flagship of Admiral Sir John Jervis at the battle of St Vincent on 14 February 1797. Although the Victory could have adopted whitewash or yellow ochre at any time between early 1803 and 1805, the change most likely occurred when Thomas Hardy superseded Samuel Sutton".  Certainly Turner's paintings does not show red, just a dark yellow ocher, and Turner went on board the Victory in December 1805 and January 1806 and would have witnessed her colour scheme first hand.

 

Gary

[dafi]

Fits in nicely with the other data culumated:

24.08.1805 Refit at Spithead:  Guns removed, hold emptied, ..., basic clean of the hold, ...,
27.08.1805 Cleaning and restowing of iron ballast, ..., guns back on the ship

31.08, 02.09, 06.09 delivery of the paint
13.09.1805 back to sea
25.09.1805 washed hammocks and aired bedding
09.10.1805 Breadroom whitewashed

21.09.1805 Trafalgar

 

If these deliveries are totalled it gives:

yellow 696 lb
Black 295,lb
White 422 lb
Verdisgris 5 lb
Prussian Blue 1 lb

 

Surprising is the little amount of black color, half the amount of the yellow. Perhaps they had still black on board or was yellow the predominat color? Or did it take more to cover properly? Just some questions ...

 

XXXDAn

 

PS: already the log entry of after 08.08. the crew was busy on the way home painting quarter deck and ship´s sides.

Edited December 1, 2018 by dafi

[Morgan]

Dafi

 

I understand that the yellow was diluted extensively with linseed oil, which itself has a yellowish tinge, I doubt the black would be cut (diluted) as much, but it was to some extent as we know the hull colour was really a dark grey, so I’m not surprised the yellow quantities are lower. Actually Nelson thought the the yellow stripes were still too dark and wanted a much lighter colour, but Trafalgar got in the way and he was never to see this put in place.

 

Gary

Edited December 1, 2018 by Morgan

[BLACK VIKING]

With all these colours logged and a picture painted during the time how come she is now painted in that horrible salmon pink and not yellow   just wondering 

Martyn

[Morgan]

I guess because it was mixed by hand, other than by weight / volume there would be little consistency between successive coats, then all Ochers themselves vary immensely from light to dark, again no batch or quality control in those days 😮 , just the Mk1 eyeball. Then I suppose it depends where they sampled the ‘Salmon Pink’ from, I’m guessing an internal surface (Goodwin says some of the internal upper deck was yellow) as all the external planking will surely have been replaced long ago given all those refits and restorations, and if it was an internal surface was the yellow paint diluted as much as the outside? Too many variables, I guess we have to defer to the experts.

 

Gary

[AON]

looking at photos I would have sworn they were bare wood.

see below

[Morgan]

No argument on that one!

[jwvolz]

Every photo I have from onboard Victory shows natural wood, though certainly varnished to prevent rot.

 

It really makes sense when you think about it. It had to move and you probably didn't want paint preventing it from turning properly with paint getting in the joint with the axle. 

[Richmond]

Wonderful photos Joe

[dafi]

3 hours ago, Morgan said:

... so I’m not surprised the yellow quantities are lower. ...

No vica versa, the yellow is double the amount 🙂

 

XXXDAn

Edited December 1, 2018 by dafi

[Morgan]

My bad Dafi, your right and the usage supports this:

 

8 NRNM 1064/83; Record number 2376. Another expense, entered by the Victory’s carpenter dated 18 August states: ‘To painting Boats the Quarter deck and Refreshing ye. Paint on the Ships Sides this Mo. [month]) 11’. The Paint and materials listed in the margin are as follows: ‘Paint White 95 lbs. Paint Yellow 24 lb. Paint Black 67 lbs. Oil 30 gallons. Brushes Six No.’

The carpenter’s entry dated 14 September reads:
To painting the ships side after caulking, the Gunroom and Officers Apartments under the Awning and Quarter deck Waist &c. after Refitting and the paint and materials consumed for the above entry listed in the margin are given as:
Yellow – 350 lbs; Black – 150 lbs; White – 450 lbs.; Oil – 47 gallons; Brushes – 20 in No.8

 

and

 

Concerning the yellow currently used for the ship’s sides and other applications in the Victory, a letter dated 6 December 1805 from William Marsden, Secretary of the Navy Board, states that Commissioner Middleton, ‘submitted a proposal from Lord Nelson that the private ships in the fleet are painted three times a year and the flagships four times a year. The proportion of white paint to yellow is to be 6 lbs to 1 lb’.14 In short Nelson authorised a six-to-one mix of white and yellow, which would be so light as to verge on the colour cream.

 

So the yellow / white mix must have been plastered on! Or the the black has better coverage.  All above from Goodwin.

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Morgan

[paulsutcliffe]

Surely the paint would wear off as the gun went back and forth when firing, and or leave a mess on the deck which definitely wouldn't be allowed, Oak goes that lovely grey colour with age 

 

Regards

Paul

[dafi]

@Morgan

 

Thank you Gary, we are having a wonderful discussion about the Turner drawings in our german forum: 

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t7042f198-HMS-Victory-Spurensuche-6.html#msg155492

 

Perhaps this would be of great interest for you. I took the liberty to link to here too and take over some of your quotes. For stupid german la reasons one have to be inscribed to see the content, but we are usually very fast to grant access.

 

But another question arises: If 6 white to 1 yellow is the mixture, why all that yellow paint (almost twice the amount of white) ?

But the carpenter entry on the 14.09. fits well in the timeline as it summons the paint used before unmooring on the 13.09.

 

XXXDAn

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by dafi

[Morgan]

Thanks Dafi, I’ll make a point of looking in.

 

Gary

[dafi]

On 12/1/2018 at 4:45 PM, Morgan said:

8 NRNM 1064/83; Record number 2376. Another expense, entered by the Victory’s carpenter dated 18 August states: ‘To painting Boats the Quarter deck and Refreshing ye. Paint on the Ships Sides this Mo. [month]) 11’. The Paint and materials listed in the margin are as follows: ‘Paint White 95 lbs. Paint Yellow 24 lb. Paint Black 67 lbs. Oil 30 gallons. Brushes Six No.’

The carpenter’s entry dated 14 September reads:
To painting the ships side after caulking, the Gunroom and Officers Apartments under the Awning and Quarter deck Waist &c. after Refitting and the paint and materials consumed for the above entry listed in the margin are given as:
Yellow – 350 lbs; Black – 150 lbs; White – 450 lbs.; Oil – 47 gallons; Brushes – 20 in No.8

Here is the new score:

 

18 August 1805

1 White 95 lb

2 Yellow 24 lb

3 black 67 lb

4 oil 30 lb

White-Yellow Balance 4:1

 

31 August 1805: 

 1.    White – 120 lb

2.    Yellow – 34 lb

3.    Black Varnish – 66 gallons

4.    Glue – 12 lb

5.    Lime – 8 bushels

6.    Whitewash brushes – 6 

White-Yellow Balance 3,5:1 ***

 

2 September 1805: 

1.    White – 150 lb

2.    Yellow – 350 lb

3.    Black – 150 lb

4.    Oil. – 47 gallons

White-Yellow Balance 0,4:1

 

5.    White – 66 lb

6.    Yellow – 78 lb

7.    Black – 13 lb

8.    Verdigris (sic) – 5 lb

9.    Prussian Blue – 1 lb 

White-Yellow Balance 0,8:1 

 

6 September 1805: 

1.    White – 86 lb

2.    Yellow – 234 lb

3.    Black Varnish – 66 gallons. lb

4.    Oil. – 2 1/2 gallons

White-Yellow Balance 0,35:1 

 

14 September 1805:

1.    White 450 lb

2.    Yellow 350 lb

3.    Black 150 lb

4.    Oil 47 gallons

White-Yellow Balance 1:1,3

 

Not near one is to Nelson´s proposed mixture of 6:1 ...

 

What was all this yellow for?!?

 

XXXDAn

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by dafi

[Morgan]

Dafi,

 

The 14 September entry logs what is applied to / painted on the ship, the other earlier entries are the stores received by the ship, so they are not additive. But your question still remains given the disproportionate amounts.

 

Gary

[David Lester]

Ronald,

If you want to have the wheels gray, Tamiya xf-55 deck tan is a pretty good approximation.

David

[ronald305]

thanks David 

    Ronald 

[jud]

I would expect wheels and axles to be well greased using a vegetable oil or grease. That form of maintenance and lubrication would work itself into the wood as a sealer, keeping water out so cracks would not develop caused by water content changes. Color was probably the result of that oily grease, not paint pigment and varied from tan to dark brown during the service life of the Truck Wheel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AON]

Inevitable everything did crack because they went from a one piece truck (wheel) tot a four piece and then added a metal retaining ring around the outboard end of the axletree.

 

The idea of greasing the assembly makes sense though I don't seem to notice any trace of it in photos.

 

Something to look into.

[el cid]

Re: Jud's astute observation.  I think the modeler should consider whether they are representing the ship as a clean, prototype display (clean, no weathering, no paint fading, no rust, grease, etc) or as an "in service" display (weathered, worn, and faded, rust streaks, grease stains, etc).  Well cared-for museum ships like Victory are more like the former; an active ship, even a well-kept ship, is going to show signs of wear-and-tear.  The pitfall for modelers is inadvertently mixing the two representations.   

 

FWIW,

 

Keith