HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[druxey]

Don't forget the sholes/soles!

[garyshipwright]

Hi druxey and Mark don't forget the sholes/soles. It seems I forgot to add them. Ok I know but thats my story and am sticking to it. 😔

[SJSoane]

Hmm, what are the sholes/soles. I haven't come across those.

I realize that I have the standard sitting on the beam, when in fact it would be sitting on the deck planks. I thought about putting a little piece of plank as a separate piece, but thought it would look a little messy. Is there something else that is between the planks and the standards?

 

Mark

[Hubac's Historian]

I love the tree, Mark - it’s the King’sKnees!

 

Ship looks pretty great, too!

Edited December 19, 2020 by Hubac's Historian

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark. the sholes goes on to the bottom of the standard. Here is what Fincham said. There were in general from nine to twelve standard on each side, fixed on pieces upon the deck, called a shole, from three to four inches in thickness. It was like the standard sat on the shole and then they sat down on the  deck.  They was just a plank that was 3 to 4 inch's thick that was attach to the bottom of the standard, length wise depended on the length of the bottom of the standard it self

Edited December 19, 2020 by garyshipwright

[AON]

Did it simply lift the standard off the deck to keep it dry?

[SJSoane]

thanks, Marc, my wife is a retired architect/furniture designer, and she came up with a pretty ingenious tree design. It saves vacuuming up needles at the end of the season.... It just hinges flat and goes into the basement.

 

druxey and Gary, thanks for the alert about sholes/soles. I am guessing that these were like a false keel, something that, when damaged, could be stripped off and replaced without having to replace the whole thing. I imagine that pools of water collected at the bottoms of the standards even with small drainage holes at the waterway, leading to early rot. Those standards were large, expensive compass timber, 1'-0" by 5'-9" by 3'-6", not something the shipwrights would want to throw away if only rotted at the bottom.

 

No end of things to learn! I may do a SWOPEM on this detail, since I am already not accurate with my standards coming straight down onto the beam rather than on to non existent planks. I am planning to plank part of the upper deck, so the standards up there may be more authentic.

 

If my standards look half as good as Gary's I will be happy. You have set a standard 😉 for me!

 

Mark

 

[druxey]

Part of the issue here is folk like Gary and myself giving you instructions from the cheap seats! Or is that the cheap sholes?

[garyshipwright]

5 hours ago, AON said:

Did it simply lift the standard off the deck to keep it dry?

Hi Alan. Am not sure and have not come across any thing that talks about rot,  It would have helped with standing water and help preserve the bottom of the standard but I believe that Fincham points more to the strength of the joint. He says , the standards were of wood or iron , and in general bolted with nine bolts, four up and down, and five in and out, the up and down bolts were collar beaded, and driven from the upper part of the standard, and clenched upon the under side of the beam. In general, the toe bolt, when the standard was of wood, was driven through a plate that clasped it, as in the working of the top side there was a great tendency for the toe to separate from the deck, and frequently to split. The in and out bolts were driven from the outside, and clenched upon the standard. This come from the reprint Fincham's Ship Building by The ship Model society of Rhode Island 1933.

Edited December 19, 2020 by garyshipwright

[AON]

Thank you Garyshipwright for the description from Fincham.

 

I've looked in a half dozen of my books and a seaman's dictionary and have not found mention of the sholes/soles in this context.  Also not shown in any diagrams/sketches.

 

I guess it was too small a detail to be noticed?

 

Does anyone have an image with this piece in it they can share?

(Druxey?)

 

I'd like to add it to the list of things I shouldn't forget... along with a map to find my list!

[AON]

Gary, I guess I was typing as you were posting!

 

I related the purpose of this shole/sole piece to the pergola timbers I've mounted on the flat concrete cap on top of the brick columns in my back yard.

I slipped a pieces of aluminum bar under the timber, on top of the cap piece, so when the snow melts the timber is raised slightly and can dry properly.  Might have been over kill on my part but I was trying to avoid early rot as experienced in other wooden structures I've had over the years.

 

I would appreciate knowing as much about this item as there is to be learnt (learned?).

[SJSoane]

16 hours ago, garyshipwright said:

Mark am not sure where I found the information on that spacing and will look and see if I can find it.  I think you might have to be the ship wright in this case and I added a photo so you can see what I did on the ones I made. I think this is a better photo showing the space then the one above.

Hi Gary,

 

I forgot to answer your question about the bolts. Yes, I was thinking I need to anchor these with real trennails, disguised as bolts. I think these might come adrift over time without a mechanical fastening. Did you actually pin yours, or or those false bolts? Yours are pretty uniform in location; did you use a jig of some kind to locate these?

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark.  No sir I didn't pin them and  when I get around to the upper deck I probably will pin them in place. The bolts were made from Amnesia by Sunset, a fishing line black in color and Ed used it in The Naiad Frigate. When I was laying out the holes I just eyed that part to get as close to even looking when you look at them.

[garyshipwright]

Hi Alan. If you look in Goodwin's book Sailing Man of War on page 108 he says you can see a contract in Deane's Doctrine of Naval Architecture but call's them shoulders of two inch plank under them.  This is a contract that was written for a 3rd rate of 1666-7 and is on page117 Am not sure when the name was changed from shoulder to sholes. I did find this in M Stalkartt Naval Architecture 1787 page 228 and says Sholes, Pieces of plank put under the shores where there are no groundways. Now when you get to 1805 in Steel books, such as Steel the Shipwright's vade-mecum 1805, page 151 he say's sholes, Pieces of oak or plank, placed under the soles of the standards, or under the heels of the shores, in docks or slips where there are no groundways, to enable them to sustain the weight required without sinking. Old hanging port lids are particularly suitable and useful for this purpose. He also gives the meaning for Sole page 152. A sort of lining to prevent wearing or tearing away the main part to which it may be attached; as the rudder, bilgeways. I also included a photo of the standard's showing the sholes attached on the lower deck Plate 8 from Steel's Naval Architecture. Also Mark if you read this, believe this is the plate that I used that shows the opening between the standard and the water way. I did look for this in the contract's  but didn't find any thing in them. Well guess what guys the moment I said that, I found it in one of the contracts I have. My apology.  Gary

Edited December 19, 2020 by garyshipwright

[AON]

Gary

Thank you.

I likely would never have found this.

[AON]

It is always the last place you look!   You mentioned a contract... I finally went to look at my transcription for my build, and there it was with the definition added below (I did this a number of years ago).

 

[Page 12 - HMS Bellerophon]

STANDARDS ---- To have 12 standards on each side of the gun deck, the wood sided 12-1/4 inches; the foremoft (foremost) pair, and as many of the others, to be iron, as shall be directed; the up and down arm to reach the upper edge of the upper deck clamp, the other 4 feet 3 inches long, bolted with 7 bolts in each, of 1-1/4 inches diameter: the standards, both wood and iron, shall be all fayed on shoals of 3 inches plank, laid with tar and hair, or old canvas; to have a standard on the gun deck, against the head of the stern post, sided 13 inches, the fore and aft arm to be of fufficient (sufficient) length to receive a bolt in the third gun deck beam from abaft, to be fcored (scored) down on the gun deck beam 2-1/2 inches; the up and down arm to reach the upper side of the helm port tranfom (transom), and to have a carling from the beam abaft the mizzen maft (mast) to the tranfom (transom) 13 inches fided (sided), fcored (scored) up between the beams; and that the space from the lower side of the knee to the upper side of the carling, be filled up by fillings, let down between the beams before the knee is fayed, that the faid (said) standard may be bolted by one bolt in each beam, and one bolt between each beam, by bolts of 1-1/4 inches diameter, and to be well clenched under the faid (said) carling: to have a standard on the gun deck, against the apron, fided (sided) 13 inches, the up and down arm 5 feet 9 inches long: the other to be long enough to receive a bolt in the fecund (second) beam from afore, and to be properly fecured (secured).

 

I imagine most builds don't bother as, at the reduced build scale, they are so thin and (less the tar line) difficult to see.

 

[SJSoane]

Gary and Alan, thanks to both of you. I have probably looked at that Steel print a dozen times or more, and never noticed the shole or the bevel at the inner corner of the standard. and Alan I read your transcript a few years ago and never remembered that reference. Can I put this all down to an aging brain?

 

By the way, I was looking at a video on YouTube the other day of someone thoroughly walking through HMS Victory. I did not see a single standard on any deck. Interesting.

 

Mark

 

 

[AON]

I admit to having done everything you wrote above.  So you are not alone!

 

I've watched that same video and I've looked at a number of builds and have not seen them.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Alan, you make me feel a little better!

 

I have worked periodically through the holiday, making more standards for the gundeck. Only 8 out of 22 to go.

 

 

As I approach the end of this,  I am thinking ahead to another challenge, explained in Rob Napier's Legacy of a Ship Model book as the "Chinese Puzzle Effect". You have to do A before B, but A cannot be done until B is completed.

 

I am getting to the point where the guns have to be installed, before I can eventually proceed to the upper decks. But the cannon barrels sticking out are clearly going to get in the way of further outboard work, including planking to the top and painting the wales and friezes. The outer work needs to be done first. Also, cutting all of the mortises in the clamps for the upper decks will make a mess of dust falling into the cannon on the gundeck. So these need to be cut before installing the cannon.

 

Indeed, just about everything following is in danger of knocking about or dislodging altogether any cannon sticking out of a gunport. I am beginning to wonder if I should install the carriages now, and only towards the end of the project slide the gun barrels in through the ports and then fasten them down. I can't imagine how I bolt the carriage capsquares down onto the barrel trunnions, when I no longer have access from the inside; working entirely through the gunport. And the breech ropes would have been installed along with the carriages (because the rope goes through a ring on the carriage) long before I try to slide a barrel through a gunport; how would I get that rope to fit nicely onto the barrel cascabels, working from outside and not from within?

 

By the way, I have decided not to plank the outboard edges of the gundeck as a platform for the guns. I really like seeing the lodging knees. So I will make a little 4" base under each gun, which will allow me to pin from underneath into the trucks of the carriage, and then pin the platform down to the beams. I am worried about these coming adrift over time, especially with the vulnerability of the barrels sticking out. So some major anchoring is needed.

 

Hmmmm......complex problems, these ship models!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by SJSoane

[garyshipwright]

Mark I was looking at your last set of photo's and noticed some thing. Was wondering where the  standand at the bow against the stem? Am sure they would have had one there.  Just wondering good sir. Also you could make a gun platform to help you rig the cannons. Here is what I use to help me  get the breach and tackles just right

[SJSoane]

Hi Gary,

 

I was not aware of a standard at the stem. I see a breasthook but no standard in Goodwin on page 178. Same in the Dorsetshire cross section. I assumed the breasthook was needed for the cants and bucklers covering up the hawse holes, as in David Antscherl's Fully framed Model vol. II p. 78. But then I completely missed the schols, so I still have lots to learn!

 

So are you planning to install the gundeck guns permanently, and then just work carefully around the barrels sticking out as you proceed building upwards?

 

Very nice capsquares on your gun carriages, by the way. Very finely detailed!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

[AON]

Look at post 2025 above

Near the end

[SJSoane]

Sure enough, Alan, there it is listed. Thanks. 

 

Hmm, the contract doesn't match up with the drawing of the Dorsetshire, where the standard against the stern post is drawn, but not one against the stem. And the Dorsetshire shows a breasthook in this location.  Lavery's drawings of the Bellona in his Anatomy of a Ship are too sketchy to see it either way. 

 

With the Bellerophon contract calling for an up and down arm of 5'-6" on a standard at the stem, there would be no room for a breasthook in this same location. Could this have changed from the Dorsetshire (1757) and Bellona (1760), to the Bellerophon (1786)?

 

 

from National Maritime Museum  "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/%27Dorsetshire%27_%281757%29_RMG_J3113.png" 

[garyshipwright]

Thank you Mark.   Am planning on installing the gundeck guns permanently, and then just work carefully around the barrels sticking out as I proceed. I just haven't found a better way. I did find plans that show the standard and others that had it drawn in. The plan of Alfred shows both the standard and the breast hook and another plan I found shows from above how this was put together. Am not sure what they called it  but a metal strap  across the front side to strengthen the standard and breast hook. Goodwin is a good source but I try to go beyond what he gives us and look for primary stuff that back's up what Goodwin is showing us.  Some times I have good luck at finding what am looking for and no luck at all on other things, such as a finding the layout of the scuppers. Reading contracts is a big item for me which helps me in building MontagueI. I upload some photo's showing a little jig that help's me mount the front trucks of the  gun's to the deck, by aligning up the pegs  in the front trucks with the drilled holes in the deck. Like you knocking them loose is a big thing if they are not well secured. Should give you a ideal or two to help you. Am also adding the rigging for the port lid's  which would be a real head ack if I waited to install them after the beams are in place.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

Aha, thanks, Gary. So the standard and the breasthook can go together. Thanks for catching that for me.

 

So you drilled into the trucks from underneath, to fit a pin which aligns with holes in the deck. Ingenious!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Mark you could be right and may not of had one in Bellona time but will see what else I can come up with. Things did change through out those years and what happen in Montague time and  Bellona time were different.   Well Mark seems after a couple of hour's,  searching seems to have turn up that looks like she may not had a standard at the stem.  As you said one has to be aware of the time frame. Gary

Edited December 27, 2020 by garyshipwright

[druxey]

Certainly scuppers are a vexing problem. I figured that they had to go between the ports and between the frame timbers, also avoiding any plank butts. 

[SJSoane]

thanks so much Gary, I am wondering about the time issue as well. Although it sure would make sense to have a knee at the stem. I saw an episode of the rebuild of the Tally Ho, and his stem was slowly leaning forward until he got it anchored back to a breast hook. A standard would help even more. But if I can't find an example in my timeframe, I may skip it.

 

As long as we are looking at the fore end of the gundeck, how about the stoppers for the anchor cable/messenger? I see these referred to, and even found the size of the stopper bolts, but where exactly were they, and how many? I saw a reference to "a couple behind the riding bitts", but nothing else.

 

After that and scuppers, I THINK I have accounted for everything on the gundeck.....🙃

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

 

[AON]

Mark,

Whether they were part of the Bellona or not I cannot say but they were in the Bellerophon, Elephant and Goliath contracts and were on the Elephant and Goliath build drawings as you can see below.

Although I am years behind you I am learning a lot.

Thanks!

 

[Alex M]

Hi,

 

while researching for Anson I have noticed two different methods for fitting the false stem and standard, that I have also found in some 74 gun ships. One was where the false stem go up to upper deck breast hook and no standard was fittet here. Another where false stem ends at the gun deck breast hook and a standard was fitted agains stem.

 

here the examples:

HMS Warrior with standard:

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/81116.html

 

here the bigger image:

 

and here HMS Ramillies without standard:

 

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80761.html

 

Bigger image:

 

 

Intrepid class has the standard fitted:

 

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/81279.html

 

And one more: the designs with standard fitted have the hinged after magazine, while those without standard have after magazine as a platform...

Two different schools in ship design?

 

Alex