12 pounder carronade carriage

[bruce d]

I could use some help please. I’m looking for plans for an English 12 pounder carronade carriage circa 1800-1805, the four wheeled type used on smaller sloops/schooners.

Maybe the answer is to scale up/down another carriage, but I would like to know the rules if this is the case.

Thanks,

Bruce

[allanyed]

Bruce,

For the carronade itself, the length given by Caruana in Volume II of The History of English Sea Ordinance for a 12 pounder is  33" long as of 1798, then 26" long as of 1815 so the 33" would be right for the time period you give. This may be OK then to use to scale a drawing of the carriage itself as you mention.   Your description of the carriage brings up some questions.  When you say wheels (trucks) do you mean in line or traversing?   most carronades had only two traversing trucks, but even when four trucks were present, most of the time they were all traversing trucks.  The four wheel trucks may not have come into use until about 1815 from what I can find in Caruana's Sea Ordinance book.  Again, two traversing trucks seemed to be the standard.  There are examples where larger trucks that were parallel with the long axis of the carronade were  sometimes used similar to long guns but these were used on the poop of larger ships starting about 1808.  To complicate things even more, these also had traversing trucks at the hind in-line trucks so had 6 wheels.   There is a drawing (side view only) of a four traversing truck carriage on page 204 of Volume 2 of Caruana's Sea Ordinance book.    There is also a drawing of modified carronade non-recoil carriage that had four in line trucks added to 24 pounders that were tested on the Wolverine about 1802.   All of these are for joint mounted carronades as trunnion mounted seems to have stopped being made by about 1790.  PM me if you would like a drawing of a 2 traversing truck carriage I can scale for you if you want to go this route.  

Allan

[bruce d]

Hello Allan,

Thanks for the useful answer. It is probable that my subject (HMS Pickle in 1805) did indeed have the traversing type of carriage that was common at the time, and your answer certainly helps support that idea. The reason I am looking for the alternative, a four wheeled (trucked) carriage of the style used for cannons, is based on a statement I came across some time ago concerning the use of carronades on smaller craft with limited armament such as dispatch boats and revenue cutters. In these cases the carronade was mounted on a ‘four wheeled’ carriage ‘as would a cannon of similar weight of shot’.

The reason given was simple: it was quicker to relocate a carriage of this type than the more common traversing mounting. In the heat of the moment a bow-chaser could be rigged or the weight of a broadside increased considerably faster and with a ship the size of Pickle (pierced for 14 guns but carrying four) this could be vital. So this practice does seem to make sense and if it was used prior to Trafalgar there is a good chance Pickle had carronades on cannon-type carriages.

If the practice was common I would have expected to find drawings of carriages of this type prior to 1808. It is possible the four wheel trucks that came in around 1808 to 1815 are in response to this requirement, so I may be barking up the wrong tree. I asked in the hope of someone producing a drawing or reference from 1805 or earlier that would at least prove it was a viable idea.

Regards,

Bruce

[Per]

Bruce,

I found an old engraving of a 12-pounder carronade on a 4-wheel carriage on Wikimedia:

Just search there for "Carronade 12 pounder.jpg". Unfortunately it seems dated to 1913, but the construction seems reasonable.

Per

Edited August 18, 2019 by Per

[bruce d]

Hi Per,

Thanks, maybe a version of this image?

I wish I knew the date of that carriage. The arrangement of the rear 'wheels' look more like rounded skids than working trucks.

This image below is interesting but I haven't tracked down the identity of the carronade shown. It was exhibited at ' Artillery on Parade 2016 ' according to Captain Google.

Open to suggestions. Someone may know the back-story and I may be chasing shadows.

Bruce

[druxey]

The nearest carriage I can find is in Caruana, Volume II on page 208. It has a two-part trucked (wheeled) carriage. All four trucks are 6" in diameter. The lower part, 4' 0" long, is wedge shaped, higher at the aft end. The upper part, also wedge shaped but with the narrow end aft, can slide up this inclined plane. This part has conventional steps. The illustration shows a 24 lb carronade mounted. This non-recoil carriage was invented by the same Captain Schank that invented the sliding keel.

[bruce d]

52 minutes ago, druxey said:

… is in Caruana, Volume II on page 208.

Thanks druxey, sounds interesting but I don't have that. Does it have a date?

[druxey]

No date, but probably the late 1790's. It was apparently experimentally used in Wolverine, ex Rattler, in 1798. (Text, page 207).

[bruce d]

8 minutes ago, druxey said:

probably the late 1790's.

Sounds good to me! PM sent.

Many thanks.

[GrandpaPhil]

The book “The Search For Speed Under Sail” by Howard I Chapelle has plans for a British style 12 lb Carronade Carriage on the plates with the rigging plan for the Prince de Neufchatel.

 

That’s what I used to make mine.

Edited August 18, 2019 by GrandpaPhil

[bruce d]

Just now, GrandpaPhil said:

The book “The Search For Speed Under Sail” by Howard I Chapelle has plans for a British style 12 lb Carronade Carriage on the plates with the rigging plan for the Prince de Neufchatel.

Well that is good to know: I just ordered a copy! I look forward to seeing it.

Thanks,

Bruce

[druxey]

That drawing shows a trunnion-style carronade, rather than the lug type, on a light carriage.

[Chuck]

This is the plan I used for Cheerful more or less.  Its dated 1820.  But more or less fits the image of those used on earlier contemporary models that showed trucked Carronade carriages.  

 

[bruce d]

Chris, thanks for the information. This is the very plan I had in mind when I first thought about scaling up the dimensions to make a 12 pounder.

I would not expect a small ship in Nelson's fleet to have been a priority when the new guns were being handed out so I am working on the assumption that Pickle had armament that was at best 1803 manufacture (the last entry I can find in her log for re-gunning) and probably earlier. I am not saying they had hand-me-downs but I feel guns/carriages from 1800-ish feel right to me.

The drawing you have posted may well be right for the Trafalgar era and if I unearth anything that dates it earlier I will share it.

Regards,

Bruce

[bruce d]

Thanks to all for the comments. The PDF attached is good reading for anyone interested in carronades. After reading it I am satisfied I was wrong to think that PICKLE may have had four-trucked, stepped cannon-type carriages.

It was good to dig, and guess what? I found out what everybody else already knew! The sliding carriage was standard and some had trucks, some didn't.

 

Bruce

object-9-carronade.pdf

[paulsutcliffe]

great reading thanks for posting

[JerseyCity Frankie]

I hope this isn’t too off topic but speaking of HMS Pickle I see you’re  quoting the figure of 14 guns? “Pierced for 14 gun’s but carrying four”. Wikipedia says eight guns and I’ve also seen Ten guns quoted. Where are you getting the 14 gunports figure? I ask because I’m researching a painting of the Pickle and it turns out I keep changing the gunports as I come across more references.

[bruce d]

Hello Frank,

There are several reasons for confusion concerning the details of PICKLE, the biggest being that there were two ships in the same waters with the name at the same time.

 

But you have certainly already found this, so here is my path through the maze:

Ignore Wikipedia. The current entry cites refs of the Naval Chronicle which are the source of the confusion between the two ships, not the solution.

Rely on the painting ‘The Victory of Trafalgar’ by Robert Dodd. There is little doubt that it was created under the direct guidance of Commander John Lapenotiere in the days after his arrival in London in November 1805. It shows a ship pierced for fourteen guns (also a distinctive application of the Nelson Stripe).

The Naval Chronicle Vol 10, page 257 describes Pickle leaving Plymouth as ‘… the Pickle, of 14 guns, Lieutenant Lafontaine [sic]’.

Ignore the PICKLE replica ship.

 

A close up from the Dodd painting:

Also, as an observation, she is described in various sources as ‘… of eight guns...’ or just ‘… six guns’. This may reflect the number of guns carried at a particular date but is different from what you and I are looking for: how many guns she was pierced for.

I am treating my Pickle as a fourteen gun, gaff-rigged Bermuda schooner. She will be mounting four 12lb carronades; two boats, a cutter and a jolly; a coppered hull and two stripes.

For what it is worth, the book ‘HMS PICKLE, The Swiftest Ship in Nelson’s Trafalgar Fleet’ by Peter Hore is my main source. It is based on Hore’s own research (which he is quick to correct when shown contrary facts) and that of the late Derek Allen. The muddle in the Admiralty records in London arising from two Pickles operating simultaneously is patiently unravelled. I have read a lot of the Pickle logs and related files at The National Archives in London and have found nothing that contradicts the account given in the book.

Let me know if you want to pick over any details and compare notes.

HTH

Bruce

Edited August 23, 2019 by bruce d

[Neil JS]

Hello Bruce

I'm a member of the Historical Maritime Society and we are the group who had the above replica 12 pdr carronade cast. We made the truck for it and we also made a slide for use in our replica frigate launch.

Though our carronade is quite small compared to the other pieces that were at Ft Nelson - it was probably the loudest!

www.hms.org.uk

 

You're welcome to visit our site.

If I can help, please let me know

 

I'm new to this site so I hope this reaches you.

Kind regards

Neil

[bruce d]

29 minutes ago, Neil JS said:

www.hms.org.uk

 

You're welcome to visit our site.

If I can help, please let me know

 

I'm new to this site so I hope this reaches you.

Kind regards

Neil

Hello Neil, thank you and welcome to MSW. May I suggest posting as well in 'New Member Introductions'?

https://modelshipworld.com/forum/3-new-member-introductions/

I am on my way to your website as soon as this is posted!

Regards,

Bruce