HMS Terror by clearway - FINISHED - OcCre - 1:75 - upgraded

[clearway]

2 minutes ago, Keith S said:

Funny, I just finished watching a video of the Coronation Scot crossing that viaduct. It must have been an old video, because that locomotive is now in the Museum with its streamlined casing. But in the video a chap was explaining that the bridge has been limited to a single track and that soon, people might be walking across it to change trains due to structural weakening. I wonder if they ever repaired it.

I can vouch Keith it is repaired as i was on the 10.58 train from Carlisle (diesel unit though unfortunately) which crossed it before pulling into the station, it is still single track though (in fact every time i go to the steam railway at Keighley {actually pronounced Keithlee} you have to go over it😁.... bloody fantastic)!

 

Keith

[iMustBeCrazy]

1 hour ago, clearway said:

Back to terror and i am thinking that navigation table is too big on the model

It certainly should be narrower than the skylight.

 

I've re-scaled my drawing and the table is drawn as about* 4'0" x 3'8" which scales down to 0.64" x 0.58" or 16.25mm x 14.9mm with the compass post 6" x 6" ( 0.08" x 0.08" or 2mm x 2mm ).

 

The bridge is about* 1'11" ( 0.3" or 7.8mm )

 

Post height from the deck is about* 6'10" ( 4'9" above the table ) scaled 1.10" or 27.8mm

 

* variations in line thickness, hand made rulers, paper distortion etc.

Edited August 26, 2022 by iMustBeCrazy

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, clearway said:

actually pronounced Keithlee

Of course it's pronounced Keithlee, why not. 

[clearway]

10 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Of course it's pronounced Keithlee, why not. 

We are taking over the world

[clearway]

Thanks for likes, comments/ hints /tips / suggestions, measurements everyone, have re made the table and re used the old legs, while in redux mode i removed the port side stern deckhouse so i could panel the doors to match the starboard side (was thinking should i remove the forward facing door and move it to beside the other door but thought na i like it)! While doing that i tackled another job that needed remedial work which is the skid beams were around 5 mm too high, so removed the posts and skid beams and moved the knees to their new height.... i was going to move the post back but thought best not as i super glued the brackets in and will probably rip the capping rail off😱 (sometimes best not to push your luck). In the pic you will see the new table beside the old table top for comparison.

Take care all

 

Keith

[clearway]

Thanks again guys, couple of shots showing the new navigating table/post and lower skid beams (when viewed from astern and compared tothe stern elevation in Matthews book the old height mistake stood out like a sore thumb)!

Take care everyone, and if you have a bank holiday today enjoy.

 

Keith

[clearway]

thanks for the likes and comments everyone. Now i have the compass post in place i thought i would try making an impression of the Azimuth steering compass (best i can do in 1/75) measures 4mm square and still need to sort a lid and a stand. Also trial fitted the bridge on the lowered supports.... to carry on my original dilemma before we sorted the compass post i still cant decide whether to go with the full width bridge off the plans or shorten it slightly (as we now know some unrecorded changes were made on the final refit)? psssst Keith notice i now have camber on the skid beam 😁.

Take care all

 

Keith

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, clearway said:

Now i have the compass post in place i thought i would try making an impression of the Azimuth steering compass (best i can do in 1/75) measures 4mm square and still need to sort a lid and a stand. Also trial fitted the bridge on the lowered supports.... to carry on my original dilemma before we sorted the compass post i still cant decide whether to go with the full width bridge off the plans or shorten it slightly

As the compass was probably only in place when in use I don't think I'd bother with a lid and I suspect it had something like a hollow box on the base that fitted over the post. Again just guesses.

 

With the bridge, all the drawings show it extending about 8'8" outside the bulwarks (say 35mm) but I might reduce that to 6' (25mm) if I made this model. But I don't think I could work at this scale.

[Keith Black]

 Craig brings up an interesting point that I've always wondered about. How often was the compass or compasses checked? If compasses were set to either side of the ship's wheel as in the case of the Tennessee, they were constantly monitored. But if a compass is stowed inside a cabinet or in an out of the way location, how often was it checked? 

 

 If there wasn't a compass at the ready I would think the course would have been more zig zag than in a straight line which would have added sailing time to a voyage. I suppose that a lot of course correction would have been dependent on the direction of the wind and how steady the wind blew from a given direction. So, was the compass only checked when the sails were reset to accommodate a change in wind? 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Keith Black

[clearway]

9 hours ago, Keith Black said:

If there wasn't a compass at the ready I would think the course would have been more zig zag than in a straight line which would have added sailing time to a voyage. I suppose that a lot of course correction would have been dependent on the direction of the wind and how steady the wind blew from a given direction. So, was the compass only checked when the sails were reset to accommodate a change in wind? 

Don't forget Keith  the Azimuth compass on the post came into play when they got towards the pole and normal compasses were as much use as a chocolate fireguard! So the azimuth would be used to set the course with the navigator correcting the helmsman till he was steering true. As for the "normal" compasses i think one like what keith S and i were talking about a year or so ago  would have been mounted either on a binnacle in front of the helmsman or more likely on top of the skylight.

 

Craig i think you could be on the right lines as on the Owen drawings there is no obvious sign of it sticking that far out.

 

Keith

[iMustBeCrazy]

11 hours ago, Keith Black said:

So, was the compass only checked when the sails were reset to accommodate a change in wind?

Kieth, think of it this way. It was the helmsman's job to sail the course given and to notify the officer on watch if he no longer could, the officer would then call for the sails to be adjusted or for a change in course (which may require the Captains permission).

So the helmsman would use everything he could to maintain a course, the compass, the set of the sails, the wind on his ear, the feel of the wheel, the wake behind him etc.

 

2 hours ago, clearway said:

Don't forget Keith  the Azimuth compass on the post came into play when they got towards the pole and normal compasses were as much use as a chocolate fireguard!

Keith, the azimuth compass was not a magical device for use near the poles, it's primary function was for taking bearings for charting and navigation. It may have been more suitable near the poles than the compass in the binnacle but that would depend on it's design, or the binnacle compasses could have been better depending on their design.

 

One of the problems is that the lines of magnetic flux which are roughly parallel to the earths surface over most of the planet start dipping as you near the poles and the compass needle (or disk) tries to point down to follow them, at the poles the lines of flux are near vertical.

 

 

So whether a compass works near the poles in part depends on how far the needle can tilt without falling off or jamming.

 

2 hours ago, clearway said:

Craig i think you could be on the right lines as on the Owen drawings there is no obvious sign of it sticking that far out.

I was thinking more about the safety of you fine model   I think the plans were probably followed but I could be wrong.

 

 

[clearway]

Thanks Craig, i have heard they would set the azimuth using a celestial body / geographical feature and keep her true using that bearing.

 

Keith

[iMustBeCrazy]

12 minutes ago, clearway said:

i have heard they would set the azimuth using a celestial body / geographical feature and keep her true using that bearing.

Yep, that works, or the helmsman lines up something between the third and fourth shroud etc. Me, I used a gps connected to digital maps. Too easy.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

 the helmsman would use everything he could to maintain a course, the compass

 Graig and Keith C, the problem I'm having is understanding how the helmsman could take advantage of the compass if the compass wasn't in his line of sight. I equate driving a car without being able to see the road with the ship's helmsman steering the required compass heading (road) without being able to see the compass? If he's dependent on the navigator to relay a "three degrees port" command to maintain course seems awkward at best. Steering to a needle makes much more sense to my pea brain. I do apologize for being so thick headed about this, I'm just having a difficult time comprehending the arrangement of having a navigator acting as a middle man relaying course corrections. 

 

 If you guys are sick of hearing me yap, just say so because I'm getting tired of hearing me yap. 

[clearway]

7 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

 Graig and Keith C, the problem I'm having is understanding how the helmsman could take advantage of the compass if the compass wasn't in his line of sight. I equate driving a car without being able to see the road with the ship's helmsman steering the required compass heading (road) without being able to see the compass? If he's dependent on the navigator to relay a "three degrees port" command to maintain course seems awkward at best. Steering to a needle makes much more sense to my pea brain. I do apologize for being so thick headed about this, I'm just having a difficult time comprehending the arrangement of having a navigator acting as a middle man relaying course corrections. 

 

 If you guys are sick of hearing me yap, just say so because I'm getting tired of hearing me yap. 

That is why i think the navigator on the bridge will get his bearing on the Azimuth and when the helmsman is on course the navigator will shout "mark" and he can use that bearing as a guide with the azimuth being consulted on a regular basis. Found this online regards Polar steering:-

 

3321. Magnetic Compass The magnetic compass directive force depends upon the horizontal intensity of the magnetic field of the earth. As the magnetic poles are approached, the opposing force on the compass card becomes progressively weaker until at some point the magnetic compass becomes useless as a direction-measuring device. In a marginal area it is good practice to keep the magnetic compass under almost constant scrutiny, as it will be somewhat erratic in dependability and its errors may change rapidly. Frequent compass checks by celestial observation or any other method available are wise precautions. A log of compass comparisons and observations is useful in predicting future reliability. 

 

Keith

[Keith Black]

 Keith C, in this instance I agree. Forgive me as I'd gone brain dead regarding navigating in extreme northern climes. 

[clearway]

No problem Keith we all been there😜. if you look at photos of shackletons endurance the  bridge was between the main and foremast while the wheel was still at the stern, They set up 3 or four foot long pointer on a post which was basically telling the helmsman which way to steer to avoid the growlers and bergs. Back with terror and i have now got Azimuth compass mark 2.

 

Take care all

 

Keith

Edited August 31, 2022 by clearway
typo

[iMustBeCrazy]

This seems to be a good explanation of an azimuth compass and it's use: wikiwand.com/en/Azimuth_compass

 

[clearway]

Thanks for the link Craig, anyways there is an Azimuth compass going on the post 😁. As regards the bridge will stick with the plans and add iron supports either side of the centreline made from brass rod blackened and most likely on the bridge wings leading to the outer bulwarks or capping rail.

 

Keith

[clearway]

Thanks for looking in, persistant rain today led to shipyard time. Back in more certain domain with the main sail sheets and tacks rigged before i finally glue the table and azimuth post in place (still need coiled though). Also fitted blackened brass rod to emulate supports for the bridge (might scrap this one and remake without a stanchion in the middle and others re spaced to suit). I read a bit about the wreck where the divers found a small stove in the sickbay in the bows with the flue sticking up through the foredeck and all the bulkheads removed, but suspect this was an impromptu addition so wont include it. Another thing to get sorted before i glue in the table etc is the vent for the safety valves Keith S mentioned in his last post on his log.

Take care all

 

Keith

Edited September 4, 2022 by clearway
typo

[Keith Black]

That last photo is a great shot. 

[clearway]

Thanks Keith, was just thinking that could have been the last view anyone from the western world would of seen of her and Erebus- gets you thinking.

 

Keith

[clearway]

evening/ morning/ afternoon depending where you are😁, have finished making a pedestal for the azimuth compass, when looking at various pics i saw one on a brass tripod stand and thought that will do nice, Took Craigs idea and mounted the legs on an inverted box which sits over the post. Also made a new bridge with stanchions spaced closer and not with one down the centreline.

 

Take care all

 

Keith

[clearway]

Thanks for the likes etc everyone, continuing on with the bridge redux and added more handrail stanchions on wooden supports abaft the bridge. Also removed the brass sunlight  from near the capstan and added some 2mm brass tube for the safety valve steam pipe.

 

Take care all and thanks for looking in

 

Keith

[HakeZou]

Wow, Keith, this is really looking fantastic! 

 

My copy of Matthew Betts's book arrives tomorrow, but in the meantime, I've been poking around in the RMG's digital collections. A propos of the discussion about the azimuth compass, I thought this was an interesting watercolor of two sailors taking a reading from one. Obviously, the ship is not the Terror and wouldn't be dealing with the challenges of navigating near the north magnetic pole...but still interesting to see one in action.  

[clearway]

Thanks Hake, not sure exactly how accurate we have all got it but we are in the right area (waits while parks canada releases a series of wreck photos showing all the details we have been driving ourselves nuts with)..... just had a thought, if they did put the  compasses in the carpenters store while not in use they will all still be there..... Keith S get that diving expedition underway😁.

 

Keith

Edited September 13, 2022 by clearway
typo

[clearway]

Thanks for the likes, links and comments everyone, I now have the rope handrail on the bridge. Thinking about supporting the bridge near midships and when reading Matthews book concerning modifications made to the ships boats mention is made of making use of wooden supports that he suggests might have been used to support the canvas cover for the decks when wintering over, got me thinking "what if they were used for supporting the bridge instead as they would be about the same height"?🤔.

Take care all

 

Keith

[clearway]

further to my thoughts on the stanchion here is a quote from John Rae  regarding what he found also (though not 100% certain it is off Erebus or Terror it seems likely).

 

In his report to the Royal Geographical Society the following April, Rae recalled how on the afternoon of 21 August 1851 the search party had  “proceeded but a short distance when a piece of pine-wood was picked up which excited much interest.

“In appearance it resembled the butt end of a small flag-staff; was 5 feet 9 inches in length, and round except 12 inches at the lower end, which was a square of 2 ½ inches. It had a curious mark, resembling this (s c), apparently stamped on one side, and at 2 ½ feet distance from the step there was a bit of white line in the form of a loop nailed on it with two copper tacks. Both the line and the tacks bore the Government mark, the broad arrow being stamped on the latter.”

 

Maybe the "white line" was to help people avoid walking into it on a darkened deck?

 

Keith

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, clearway said:

Maybe the "white line" was to help people avoid walking into it on a darkened deck?

 

 From the account is sounds like the staff and line were found on the ice? If so, it could have been a safety line run from the ship to trench latrines to hand follow during blizzard conditions? 

[clearway]

7 hours ago, Keith Black said:

From the account is sounds like the staff and line were found on the ice? If so, it could have been a safety line run from the ship to trench latrines to hand follow during blizzard conditions? 

ooo good thinking keith B! they did state in the same article they also found a 3 feet long oak stanchion with a locating peg cut into the bottom of it nearby and reckon they could have been carried south by the tides and ice to where they were found. However i am wondering would they make a support for the bridge out of 2 and a half inch pine- but the length sure as heck fits in as they reckon it was longer originally?

 

ahhhh the mystery just keeps going.

 

Keith

Edited September 16, 2022 by clearway
typo