Remedy for Removing Too Much of the Bulkheads???

[drjeckl]

It appears that during the beveling of the bulkheads for the first planking of the Lady Nelson, I've removed too much material.  I think that, because I have significant gaps between consecutive planks.  This issue is only in the bow, as the planks at midships and the stern lay in tight.  It's not as prominent in the pictures because I already plugged some of the big gaps with slivers of scraps.  See below.

Top View:

Front view:

Side View:

 

It's somewhat hard to see but the planks are laying flat on the bulkheads. 

 

I figured I could resolve the gap issue with filler after the first planking was complete and sand it down to bevel it out.  But I thought that I should at least plug the gaps so the filler didn't see seep through.  Then I thought laying in a skinny, second plank in those areas would build that section up.  I could see some issues with that solution.

 

Finally, I thought, wait a minute, what am I crazy?  Why am I not engaging the wealth of experience and knowledge at MSW?  I'm from the tech business and have learned that when I have a problem that I can't solve in 30 minutes by myself, I call the help line.  So, I'm calling the MSW help line.  Help!!!

 

John

[amateur]

Hi John,

 

to me it is not clear that you removed to much material. To me it looks as if youtend to force your planks into the oosition you want them to be, but where they don't want to go. 

Forcing your planks results in a kind of 'stepped' appearance of tour bow, as the underside of the planks will tend to bend outward. 

 

When you take a strip and lay it at 90 degrees over the planks you did so far, the strip should lay flat over the planks. As soon as you see small triangular openings, you know you are forcing too much. Antother check: pin your next plank on the two midship framse, an let the plank decide where it wants to go. If it does not go nextto the previous, but runs over the previous plank, you have an indication that you are forcing too much.

In that case, to have a nice run of you planks, you should either use drop planks (planks that do not reach the bow), or side bend your planks. However, It is hardly ever possible to sidebend your planks, unless you have rather flexible, good quality wood. European kits quite often have rather thick, open grained, not so flexible stuff....

 

There is a very nice planking tutorial somewhere here on MSW. I lost the link, but you should be able to find it.

 

Jan

 

[drjeckl]

Jan,

 

I will try that technique going forward.  How do you think I should resolve my current situation with the first 5 planks in position?  Pull them off and start over?  Keep filling in the gaps?  This is my first build so I don't know the ramifications of filling in the gaps.

 

Thanks for your advice...John

[amateur]

I know it is difficult (and I don't know how much spare you have), but my advice would be: start over.

 

Jan

[barkeater]

My two cents. First you say that the planks are laying flat on the bulkhead but in the pictures it really looks like they are laying flat on only one edge not across their breadth which would go along with your pictures. If they were laying flat across their entire breadth you would not get the step appearance which is seen in your pictures. Planks being of equal thickness, there would be no step. Your mistake in this case appears to be, as has been said, that you did not let the planks assume their natural curve. At the bow, the planks will progressively overlap one another so you have to taper them going forward or drop a plank. It looks like you did not taper but rather fit the plank in at the bow and then tried to bend the plank to match up to the other bulkheads. I would take them off and redo them. If you don't correct mistakes early in planking especially with a double planked hull it will only increase your problems later. I would look at the planking tutorial in the forum for more clarification. It is tough to asses the beveling or fairing of the bulkheads in your pictures given the problem with the run of the planks. If you do still have a problem with beveling, which I don't think you do, after you fix the tapering problem this would be easy to fix. You just glue on a strip or two of scrap planking along the edge of the bulkhead where you have taken off to much wood and bevel or fair it again. 

[druxey]

Your fairing of the bulkheads looks good. If you look at planking articles on this site, you'll see that planks usually have to be shaped to fit properly. Straight planks are only good for siding a flat surface like a house. You will either need to cut curved planks or edge bend straight ones. (There are tutorials on MSW on both methods.) Then your planks will lie flat. 

[drjeckl]

Gents, Thanks for your advice.  My mentor on the build was Leon Griffiths from The Modellers Shipyard with his videos up on the Amati Facebook site.  I followed his planking technique, which is different that what's up on the MSW tutorials.  I've been reading these again and going through, for the 2nd time, the LN build log by vossiewulf, which IMO is an exceptional tutorial (curious why he didn't finish).  I am going to start over, with probably the exception being the first plank, which was pretty tough to get in.  Fortunately, I do have enough spare planks.

 

Thanks...John

[tlevine]

Please take a look at both Chuck's and David Antscherl's tutorials on planking.  Although they do not exactly fit your situation, you will learn why you are in trouble.  These are located in the Articles Database seen at the top of the page.  Even though you are not spiling the planks (custom shaping each plank to conform to the shape of the hull), you still need to divide the hull into "belts" containing 4-5 rows of planks.  It should be obvious that the planks at the bow are more narrow than the ones amidship and the ones at the stern are wider.  The change in width from fore to aft will be different in each of the planking belts.  The planks at the bow will need to be tapered and you may need to use a "drop plank".  At the stern you will need to add a "stealer".  

 

Don't fall into the trap of "this is the first layer of planking and no one will see it".  This is your opportunity to see how the run of planking should go so that the second layer is perfect.

[Roger Pellett]

A (somewhat) dissenting opinion.  This double planking system is a kit manufacturer’s method to provide a fair hull shape for the “second planking” while minimizing the number of bulkheads provided with the kit. If this were my model, I would tear off the planking and fill in the spaces between the bulkheads with solid blocks of wood- pine or basswood.   Then I would shape the blocks between the bulkheads until I had a fair solid surface.  Then referring to the references provided by Toni above, I would correctly plank the model with its finish planking.

 

Roger

 

 

[amateur]

In that case: don’t forget to correct for the thickness of the ‘missing’ first layer. 
Filling in certainky helps to have a nice surface, but the probllem of forcing your planks remains essentially the same. (Although reduced to te outer layer only)

 

Jan

[drjeckl]

Being a math major, I needed to layout the math behind what you all have advised, what I've read in the planking tutorials and the Lady Nelson build log by vossiewulf, which I read for the 3rd time last night, this time in full detail.  So here goes:

Comments appreciated...John

[drjeckl]

I think I see what the main problem I had, other than letting the planks go where they wanted to go.  When I installed each plank, I put the tapered edge to the top and the non-tapered, straight edge at the bottom.  From all the drawings I've looked at in the past three days, it appears that the non-taped edge went to the top.  So did I have that wrong?  And that's why I got what I got?  I never saw anything written about that issue.  I specifically checked on the videos from the Amati build logs to confirm that and I could have sworn I saw the non-tapered edge at the bottom.  Maybe I missed that.

 

Please tell me that's the main reason for what happened to me.  Please...John

[amateur]

I don't know whether there is a rule on which side to taper.

I only know that for me getting the taper right is better achieved when the taper is on the side of the previous plank.

I never tried the method you describe, so I'm not going to comment on that. As far as I can see, the theory is correct. Part of the real life is: will your planks side-bend or not. If not, you are back to: let them go where they want to, but in that case your planking will not have a nice flow in planking bands.

 

Jan

[Dziadeczek]

too much math theory and not enough of good practice...

[drjeckl]

Jan, that's what I did, put the tapered edge next to the previous plank, so the non-tapered edge was at the bottom.  Oh well, I thought I had something there.  I will probably dry fit a couple of planks both ways and see if there is any difference.

 

Diadeczek, The reason I put the math up there is that from all the planking docs read/videos seen over the past 3 weeks, there was nothing that concisely, put everything together about how to determine how much to taper and where to do it.  There was always something like "divide by 1/8 inc.....", not divide by the width of the plank.  Or use the planking fan template to line up the tick marks.  There has to be some math about that, so what is it?   Also, after reading vossie's build log again, I learned that cutting a rabbet, if you don't already have one, is kinda important for each planking so there is a tight place for the planks to land.  I never saw that in any of Chuck's tutorials or any of the videos from Amati.  And I'm with you, I don't have enough good practice; this is my first build.  And I scoured all the documentation I could find on planking (MSW's docs, Modeller Central's docs, YouTube vids) way before I attempted my first first planking.  I couldn't find enough of the math.  So I went with what was the easiest to follow, the Amati video build logs on Amati's Facebook page, https://www.facebook.com/search/videos/?q=Amati Modellismo lady nelson . I'm rambling, so I'll stop here.

 

Thanks for helping...John

[Dziadeczek]

Hi John,

If I may continue for a bit...

You write that this is your first model. Well..., I would advice that before you start planking, you should first prepare yourself for it. Get yourself a pair of good proportional dividers (those with long sharp legs, looking like pins). That will shorten and ease the process of spiling and also make it more accurate. If, for one reason or another, you decide not to use proportional dividers, you have to rely on a paper strip method, which is also good, but a bit more tricky and lenghty.

It seems to me, that you have mastered the idea of subdividing the bulwarks into several "belts" by temporarily attaching thin battens and subsequently subdividing each "belt" into areas filled with your planks. Measurements have to be taken for each frame/bulkhead to determine the width of the plank there.

Also, get yourself a suitable plank bending device that will work for you (some people use a curling iron, others a hot lightbulb, glass jar or a kettle, or a dedicated plank bending iron, I use a modified soldering iron with attached crescent shape head). Also, build yourself a plank holding device from scraps of wood and obtain a mini shaving plane.

Place your plank in this holding vise and, after drawing on it the curve with a pencil, carefully shave and sand one edge to this shape. For me, one shaved edge is enough, if you want to shave the other, go for it.

After the shaving of your plank, wet it in luke warm water for a few minutes and bend it to the shape of your hull, where the plank willl be laid down. Do it outside of the model, placing your plank on a straight wooden surface ( a piece of plywood, or such), and with one hand rubbing the plank back and forth with hot surface of your bending device, the other hand gradually lifting the plank to the desired shape. Repeat as many times as necessary. Some degree of edge bending will also be possible. If however your plank breaks while you edge bend it, you must fabricate it from a separate piece of wood, with this crescent shape bend designed into it. Look into David Antscherl and Chuck Passaro's tutorials for details how to do it.

Also read this thread:    Check the technique of Mr. Kammerlander (video there), especially relating to the edge bending.

Once you get your plank bent, nicely matching the curvature of your hull, place it on it. It should lay there almost completely on the edges of your bulkheads, without forcing it there by the glue. Apply the glue to the places on the bulkheads where the plank will be touching them, and also along one edge of your plank and attach it in place. You may need a few pins or pushpins to keep your plank in place while the glue is drying (but don't push them through the plank but rather next to it to avoid unsightly holes afterwards), , or instead you may use a small drop of CA glue here and there to "grab" the plank quickly and keep it in place, while the yellow glue (titebond) is drying.

And remember,  the length of a plank should be from the bow to the stern. Avoid the situations that your planks end abruptly somewhere in the middle of the hull, with sharp point tucked under another plank laid above!

 

Have fun!

[barkeater]

Getting back to your question on which edge to taper, I always taper that edge which will abut  the existing plank. This way you know right away if the plank you tapered was done correctly and has a good angle to fit in smoothly with the existing plank and you always keep the opposite edge straight and true to lay your next plank against. Also concerning the placement of bands. Here, I am bit of a nonconformist. In the first planking I measure in millimeters the entire length of the run up the bulkheads where I need to plank instead of breaking this up into multiple bands. Then I divide this by the width of the planks I'm using. This lets me know how many runs of planking I need to do at each bulkhead and how much taper I need at each bulkhead over the entire hull. I can then start to do slight tapers before I need them rather than  possiblly more severe taper at some areas which I would need to do using bands. As an example I can start to do a 1mm. taper on a plank before I need it rather than a more severe 2 or 3 mm taper if I wait.  I do a few runs of planks and then remeasure all the bulkheads and readjust. This way I can do a hull without dropping a plank or adding a plank. I plank to scale on my second planking which for me at 1/48 is 5 inches in length. I draw on false bulkheads in between my existing bulkheads on the second planking which allows me to  follow rules on plank lengths and number of planks between butts. 

[druxey]

The 'flattened' shapes of planks are not usually straight on one edge, except for the garboard. Here's an example of the lowest few strakes of a fairly simple hull. These were figured out using the planking method in the tutorial by David Antscherl

[Dziadeczek]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

The 'flattened' shapes of planks are not usually straight on one edge, except for the garboard. Here's an example of the lowest few strakes of a fairly simple hull. These were figured out using the planking method in the tutorial by David Antscherl

Hi David,

With the exception of your garboard strake (which is almost straight) , the others can be slightly edge-bent by a hot iron to conform to the others and the general shape of the hull.

[drjeckl]

Thomas, Thanks for your writeup.  I have and been using most of all the tools you mentioned, except the proportional dividers.  Based on the topics I've seen here on this tool, I think I get how they are used.  The post by mikiek gave me the insight to these. Question: Are the less expensive plastic PDs, which just let you do proportions in whole numbers, good enough for their use in planking?  Would hate to spring for the more expensive metal PDs if planking would be their only use.  Also, for the edge bending, would a set of french curves be useful?

 

Barkeater:  Thanks on which edge you use to go against the previous plank.  That's what I thought and where I made my mistake that got me in trouble.  I put the non-tapered edge against the the previous plank.

 

David: Thanks for pitching in.

[Dziadeczek]

9 hours ago, drjeckl said:

Thomas, Thanks for your writeup.  I have and been using most of all the tools you mentioned, except the proportional dividers.  Based on the topics I've seen here on this tool, I think I get how they are used.  The post by mikiek gave me the insight to these. Question: Are the less expensive plastic PDs, which just let you do proportions in whole numbers, good enough for their use in planking?  Would hate to spring for the more expensive metal PDs if planking would be their only use.  Also, for the edge bending, would a set of french curves be useful?

 

John,

From my own experience, cheap plastic proportional dividers with thick, short and dull legs aren't good enough for this task. The legs should be thin and pointy, adjustable like from a good quality compass. Before you use them, calibrate them carefully, making sure that the distance between the shorter legs is an exact fraction (1/2 or 1/3, or so...) of the distance between the longer legs, adjusting the lenght of the legs. The ratio should be set up before with the central screw. Purchasing good dividers is an investment for a long time, so if you intend to build just this one model, use a paper strip technique instead. Cheaper!

 

The way I use them is, I first set the ratio to the number, corresponding with the number of planks in a given 'belt', say 5 and then take measurements between the battens (or marks on the bulkheads) with the pair of the longer legs. Then I switch the legs, place one shorter leg directly against the edge of the plank and with the other leg I delicately mark the plank, pushing it into the plank ever so gently that it is just barely visible. This is the width of your plank at the given bulkhead. I repeat the same for all bulkheads. In the end I obtain a series of micro holes in the plank, which I subsequently connect with a sharp hard pencil using a metal curve (aluminium) the so called ship's curve. I fix the plank in my plank shaping jig and carefully shave its edge with a mini plane and sand it fine, until I no longer see the pencil line.

I actually shave a pair (2) of planks held together in the jig, each one for each side of the hull (since they should theoretically be identical). This way I obtain two identical planks at the same time.

Also, it is a good idea to profile your shaved edge not perpendicular to the surface of your plank, but at certain angle, so when you place this plank against the others, it will form a very tight fit, since the surface of the hull is not flat but rounded up.

When i proceed with the second pair of planks, I change the ratio to one number smaller than the previous one, adjusting the center screw to 4, and so on. After I fill the entire "belt", I remove the lower batten and proceed with the lower "belt". And so on, until I have the entire bulwark planked.

Do not try to plank completely the entire side first and then go to the other side - you run the danger of your hull getting warped beyond repair. Better to mount one plank on the first side and then the second one on the other side and continue that way. The 'skeleton' of your model should be placed securely in a planking "shipyard" during the entire process of planking, to avoid warpage.

Check the pic attached below.

 

The way to edge bend is shown on the video by mr. Kammerlander, I mentioned earlier. Take a piece of flat wood, like a piece of plywood and hammer there two small nails about 1 inch apart leaving them protruding up for about half an inch. Place the end of your pre weted plank flat on the plywood, in between these two nails and delicately try to edge bend it, at the same time rubbing it to and fro with your hot iron. Flip the plank on the other side and repeat the same. Do not burn the wood! The plank will quickly attain a new shape and become curved. This can be done to a certain degree, depending on the type of wood and dimensions of your plank (thickness), before the plank breaks. For tighter curves you have to preshape your plank like a crescent from a separate piece of wood - following the advice of David Antscherl or Chuck Passaro in their tutorials here.

 

Good luck!   :-)

Thomas

[drjeckl]

Thomas,

Got it.  Your explanation and the sketch nailed it. The light bulb is lit!  Thank you so much.

.John