Odysseus homeric ship (penteconter) by MESSIS - FINISHED - kit-bashed from Dusek bireme

[mtaylor]

23 hours ago, MESSIS said:

@Louie da fly  thx, it seems am over the crical point of not completing the model. After the framing and planking now its easy to proceed with what it remains in order to rebuilt Homer's ship. I believe the result will be historicaly representable or at least within the frame of Homer's imagination.

 

On top of that, there's no one can ever say that is wrong.  Looks good to me and your explanations sound spot on.

[MESSIS]

Stem hat fort, mostly in order to fight ship inavators.. stem was the embarking spot of the ship. The stern was the place where the navigator was standing, as the he was responsible for the course. 

The stem had red "cheeks" says Homer. So I painted red  and ofcourse as Homer again mention I will have later on to paint the ship black under the wale.

[MESSIS]

Homer says that Odyseus was the leader of 12 ships, which all hat red cheeks. Thats in Illias 2.637. It refers at this moment at the beginning of the expedition to Troy. Further on, is to said that Odyseus was not their King. He wssnt a King, he was the leader of a House (οίκος). There was no State, that time society's strusture was based on Οικος (Houses). It seems Odyseus Οικος was a strong one, so he was the leader among other Houses that they had relations with.

[MESSIS]

A better looking red...

 

[Louie da fly]

Looks very good, Christos. Funny, I would have thought the "cheeks" would be lower on the hull (as they are on the face), but to be honest I can't see a better place than you've chosen.

[MESSIS]

Steven I havent choose it myself. Its what is concluded according to Homer's discriptions". I think that if the cheeks were lower they would not be seen even from a small distance. The reason painting them red (or even blue) was to produce impression to observers. "Παρειές" is  refering more to the upper part of the face, the lower part would be called (I  believe)  as "γνάθος". Of course at the lower part I am planing to position (looking most of the vases) the "οφθαλμός".

 

I would like to know what you think of all these that I botherd you with. I value your expirience on such issues... and not only ofcourse.

[Louie da fly]

Christos, I agree with your interpretation for both the reasons you mention - firstly, that the red would be more visible if it was high up; second, that, as you say, Homer's word  μίλτοπάρηοι relates to the upper part of the face.

 

Of course that is always a problem with translating - a word in one language doesn't necessarily have exactly the same meaning as the "equivalent" word in the other, and though "Παρειές" translates into English as "cheek", it doesn't really mean exactly the same thing.

[MESSIS]

Thank you Steven for your comments.

Christos

[MESSIS]

50 oars hat a penteconter.... still need another 25  -  πεντηκόντορος = πεντήκοντα fifty and όρος, ερέτης oarsman

[Tom E]

Wonderful ship Christos,

 

Really enjoying how your wrapping history itself thru Homers descriptions with your ship.

Feels like its coming to life right from the ancient scripts.

 

Beautiful work.

 

Tom E 

[Louie da fly]

Sorry, but Tom's post about Homer immediately made me think of this:

 

[MESSIS]

@Tom E Thank you for your kind words. Its a change from mofelling ships from  the age of sails. And yes I do enjoy the investigation of Homers discriptions... there in the epics, there is a a fascinating piece of ancient naval history of which I wasnt aware.

 

He gives details showing he knew what he was talking about (comparing with ancient vases and archeological foundings). Its really a wonderfull journey am going through and has made me to begin writting  a book which I have called "Building Odyseous Ship". Ofcourse am writting it in greek🤯. 

 

@Louie da fly

Nice comment 😄 Actualy Steven working on this  I got the impression that I am again in school...  memorys of my late teacher in gymnasium who  was a great admirer of Homer. I preferd maths and physics at that point and he used to tell me that I was not appreciatting Homer they way I should. Now in my sixtys it seems  I have learned my lesson.

[Louie da fly]

14 minutes ago, MESSIS said:

Its really a awsome and has made me to begin a book which I have called Building Odyseous Ship. Ofcourse am writting it in greek

That sounds like a very worthwhile thing to do. A pity my Greek isn't good enough to appreciate it (actually, not even good enough to wade through it slowly and painfully). This could be a valuable addition to the knowledge of ships of this time - combining the clues from Homer with those from the vases.

[MESSIS]

@Louie da fly If... just if Steven, I really finish the book and it comes out that it worth's it been published, it want be hard neither costly  to translate it in english. But in any case, even if I dont publish at all, I ll be sending you a copy of this work... I know that you will appreciate that.

[MESSIS]

some more pics while manufacturing oars

[Louie da fly]

23 hours ago, MESSIS said:

But in any case, even if I dont publish at all, I ll be sending you a copy of this work... I know that you will appreciate that.

Well, I certainly wouldn't refuse such a generous offer. I would treasure it.

[MESSIS]

Red chicks and black hull. Αφλαστο  at the stern and  ακροστόλιο and oφθαλμοί at the stem. Οφθαλμοί oculis, so that the ship can look up the safest way and aflasto and akrostolio were symbols, mainly of religious meaning.

 

Mike - Michael Shanks , has fabricate by Cnc the two oculis of the ship...

 I did just the painting. Shipbuilding  is approaching its end. Next are the oars and the rigging. Many thanks for such a precious present that added a lot to the model.

 

[Louie da fly]

Very nice, Christos. That's a very elegant hull and the oφθαλμοί are very well shaped. It came as a surprise to me when I learned that these eyes weren't just painted on - they were separate items added to the hull - see https://www.petersommer.com/blog/archaeology-history/ships-eyes-bodrum and https://nautarch.tamu.edu/Theses/pdf-files/Nowak-MA2006.pdf

[MESSIS]

Thank you Steven for the nice words and the link. 

 

There was/is a discussion still over the materials of the eyes. The eyes found made from marble is believed that they were not used on the ships because they were heavy. Most scholars believe that the eyes were made by applying hot coloured wax, some believe that eye  inlays were used such as some kind of colloured metal, as copper or bronze and some even believed that glass was used or even Lapis lazuli which maybe also explains why Homer refers to blue  (κυανοπρωος).

 

My build represents inlay eyes... I think it is made out of blue glass.😁

[MESSIS]

Oars and the klides on which the oars were binded (Ion. κληΐς [ῑ], κληῗδος, κληῗδα, etc. (Hom. uses only the Ion. form):—Dor. κλᾱΐς, κλαΐδος [ῐ] Simon.23)

[Louie da fly]

18 hours ago, MESSIS said:

The eyes found made from marble is believed that they were not used on the ships because they were heavy.

That makes a lot of sense - I had my doubts right from the start about that. There's also the difficulty of fixing marble to wood - how would you do it? With glue? some kind of pin through a hole in the marble?

 

It does leave the question - so what were the marble eyes used for?

 

Those oars seem very thick and heavy. Are they the ones supplied with the kit?

[MESSIS]

Dear Steven, yes you are right there. The marble  eyes were found at Zea in Pireus and is after that when Lolling published his work (14] E. Lolling, “Schiffsaugen”, AM 5,). 

 

But still after him a few schollars came with objections saying they were heavy, breakable and the hole of the pin too small. Emily Ioannidou of the GN Institute argues that propably they were used as votives to the gods.... 

 

About the oars Steven feel free to elaborate your thoughts. Its still not too late for changes. The length is 4 meters and the thickness 14 cm. I have brighten the blade and is 36 cm....  I have modified the kit's original drawing according to the ideas exposed by K.Antipas in its book about the homeric oars, of which (I believe)  nobody knows anything.

 

After my calculations with the pine wood density 400-500kg/m3  makes my oars about 20 to 25 kgs heavy. I know its may be a little to heavy but still they could be carried by one man. Always.... If my calculations are correct 

 

[Louie da fly]

Hi Christos,

 

Your question regarding the oars inspired me to put together a bunch of pictures from Ancient Greek sources (mostly pottery) at 

which has a lot of depictions of oars. As you can see, they are quite long and slender. Many of the pictures also show the oarblades clearly enough to understand their shape and size. 

 

I'm hoping this helps not only you, but also others who build models of Ancient Greek galleys.

 

Very best wishes,

 

Steven

[MESSIS]

Thank you Steven. Still allow me to have my considarations over the pictorial information of the vases. As Samuel Mark in his book Homeric Seafaring argues, actually the painters were just decorating vases, they were not drawing ship building drawings. Also  more often they lacked of skills in order to represent correct what they have seen and even more some times they were painting ships  without having ever seen them.

 

The following potter picture is an example of the case referring to the skills of the painter:

 

Is it a bireme, with two rows of oars on each side, or is it just the artist (who lacks of skills) aiming   to picture together both sides of a ship with a single oar row on each side?

 

And ofcourse the question of the length remains. The second picture after Casson (taken from a geometric era vase again) shows oars of a size similar to the oarers height (Penteconter were shallow). Even if we consider the parameter of the prespective of the picture a 3 meters length could have been possible.

 

Still I believe they were longer thats why I went on a 4 meters length. Τhis is what Lionel Casson says in his bookShips and Seamanship. The athenian naval records (4th cent.bc) indicate the oar length at 9 cubit (thats 4.18 meters) or maybe half a cubit longer for the oars amid-ships. 

 

Still I have a feeling that am wrong with the length of the blade. Although the length I choosed seems proper I think it had to be shorter...  (and thinner) because as short as it gets the easier is to row it... and when you have 50 oars you dont need verylong oar blades.... still the issue how long were the blades... remains ananswerd.

 

 

Anyway oars have to be redone... thinner and a slightly narrower blade.

[Louie da fly]

On 9/24/2020 at 8:58 PM, MESSIS said:

actually the painters were just decorating vases, they were not drawing ship building drawings. Also  more often they lacked of skills in order to represent correct what they have seen and even more some times they were painting ships  without having ever seen them.

On the other hand, it's about all we have to work with. Though some of the earlier representations (the pictures in your post above) are rather primitive, part of the problem is surely that they hadn't worked out a way to show perspective - thus the uncertainty whether the ship is a monoreme with both sides shown or a bireme.

 

And as far as the later pottery is concerned, I'm prepared to believe it shows a pretty accurate rendition of what was actually used. And if we accept the details of the hull as being accurate, shouldn't we do the same for the thickness of the oars? (I'm not getting into whether their length is right - I don't feel qualified to comment).

 

The other point I would raise is that though the oars on the trireme reconstruction Olympias were thick on the inboard side of the fulcrum, the rest of the oar was quite slender, and these oars have been tested in use and worked well. It's not proof that these are the kinds of oars used by the ancients, but I think it is worth taking into account.

 

Apparently (and unfortunately I don't remember where I saw it)archaeologists have found lead counter-weights in the form of strips of metal formed into a ring to go around the oar handle to overcome the imbalance in handling oars (where most of the length and weight is on the seaward side of the fulcrum) .

[MESSIS]

@Louie da fly Yes I agree Steven, you are right with all your arguments. The only thing I would add is the manufacturing problems and am talking  about the blades. They couldnt be an added part if the oar. Oars most propably were made out a single piece of  wood, so the ratio of the handle to the blade was hard to go beyond a limit.

 

Actualy this is the rule you followed in your ship's case although the above considarations  were of less importance at the time of Dromon, that is almost 1000 years after the time  that penteconter appeared.

 

Olympias looks like the blades are added and made out of some kind of a non wood material. So  I prefer your blades I believe they look and are authentic. 

 

[Danstream]

I am following your build, being much intrigued by the subject. About the oars, let me post an information that probably is not of much practical help, but it is a direct account from the poet. 

 

In his journey in the afterworld, Odysseus seeks out and talks to Tiresias, the great prophet who alone among the dead is allowed to retain his true mind (nous). He advises him how to avoid the various dangers that await him on his way home and how finally to make peace with Poseidon.  To achieve this peace, Tiresias instructs Odysseus to plant an oar in a place where ships and the sea are unknown:

 

Then you must go off again, carrying a broad-bladed oar,

Until you come to men who know nothing of the sea,

Who eat their food unsalted, and have never seen

Red-prowed ships or oars that wing them along.

And I will tell you a sure sign that you have found them,

One you cannot miss. When you meet another traveler

Who thinks you are carrying a winnowing fan,

Then you must fix your oar in the earth

 

So, the oar must look like a fan, perhaps looking into the word of the original Greek text could be of help to better identify the object.

[MESSIS]

@Danstream Great! Thats the way it goes actually, the linguistic code of Homer some timew its easy some times its complicated. But thats the only way to see through the Homeric fog.  Thank you sir for your astonishing intervention.

[MESSIS]

So here we go again. New oars... thinner blade. And the weigh is about 18-22 kg. The wood is fir and the length 3.9 meters....
  😅

[Louie da fly]

I'm assuming Homer used the word λίκνον [líknon] (info from Wikipeidia) for a winnowing fan. Throughout the world and the ages, they all seem to be a similar shape:

 

      

 

Easy to understand why Homer would have referred to an oar as looking like a liknon - particularly the ones below, with a handle:

 

     

 

There was even a knight named Robert de Septvans who had seven winnowing fans as his coat of arms (Sept is seven in French ).