Acrylic clear over India Ink

[ChrisSC]

Hi. I am wondering if anyone has used waterproof India Ink on a plastic model and then tried to seal it with a flat clear. I have very tiny windows that I would like to make black. Someone had mentioned using an ultra fine point India Ink pen to blacken these areas. My concern is I plan to seal the whole model with an acrylic flat clear after I'm done and I am curious if the clear will either make the ink run or have any other adverse effects on it. I'm hoping someone may have tried this and has some advice/experience to share. I would be putting the ink over Tamiya acrylic paint and sealing it with Tamiya acrylic flat clear. I have looked everywhere for this specific information but have had no luck finding any information. Thanks in advance for any input.

[Keith Black]

Best to do a test piece/pieces and then you'll know. 

[ChrisSC]

22 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Best to do a test piece/pieces and then you'll know. 

Thanks. Yes that's what I'm doing. So far I have found it is taking forever to dry. It's been several hours and will still smudge if I touch it so it's not looking like a viable alternative to paint. I only drew a tiny square box of it on a painted piece of styrene and it won't dry. On paper it will not smudge immediately after applying it but not so on plastic.

[druxey]

Why the need to seal at all?

[ChrisSC]

21 minutes ago, druxey said:

Why the need to seal at all?

I painted the hull in gloss black so I could affix the decals without silvering. I really am not a fan of gloss paints so I want to put a coat of flat clear on the ship after I get the decals on. From what I have seen so far today if I use this ink it's going to make a giant mess as I don't trust it's ability to not be affected by a clear coat over it. The windows are very tiny and numerous and this India Ink pen has the perfect size applicator to get into these tiny spots so I thought I would experiment with it. On my last ship I had tons of trouble trying to get the windows painted so I figured I would try an alternate method. I also tried Tamiya Panel Line Accent on the last one and it was very aggressive and started melting and staining whatever it touched (white paint). I may mask and spray the windows black and try dry brushing the raised areas white....I have never tried that method either! I'll wait until tomorrow and see if this ink ever dries, if not I have to come up with another plan.

[Keith Black]

You might try sealing a test piece before adding the ink and see what happens. Maybe the ink will dry on top of the sealer but not underneath? If the ink dries on top of the sealer then the ink would be the only thing unsealed. 

[Jaager]

India ink is very small particles in water - maybe graphite? - carbon anyway.   When I was a pup, a drop on a microscope slide was a method of displaying brownian motion.

It is essentially a dye.  It penetrated porous surfaces and stays behind when the water dries.  Plastic (your type -styrene) has no pores.  The ink is just a dirt layer on the surface.  There is no chemical reaction involved.  Paint involves a chemical reaction.  Your clear finish also involves a chemical reaction.

From your description - a speculation: the carbon particles suspend in the water solvent of the poly finish and interfere with the polymerization reaction.  It may never dry or if dry the incomplete reaction may leave mostly poly monomers which are essentially just another dirt layer.  In this case, the product is named after a reaction that does not occur, so it is nor poly at all.

 

[ChrisSC]

5 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

You might try sealing a test piece before adding the ink and see what happens. Maybe the ink will dry on top of the sealer but not underneath? If the ink dries on top of the sealer then the ink would be the only thing unsealed. 

Well I have been putting it on several differently prepared pieces of styrene. One of them is painted with the same acrylic paint that is on the model and is also what I plan to seal it with, Tamiya acrylic. So far it is acting the same on everything except paper. It dries very well on paper lol.

[ChrisSC]

3 minutes ago, Jaager said:

India ink is very small particles in water - maybe graphite? - carbon anyway.   When I was a pup, a drop on a microscope slide was a method of displaying brownian motion.

It is essentially a dye.  It penetrated porous surfaces and stays behind when the water dries.  Plastic (your type -styrene) has no pores.  The ink is just a dirt layer on the surface.  There is no chemical reaction involved.  Paint involves a chemical reaction.  Your clear finish also involves a chemical reaction.

From your description - a speculation: the carbon particles suspend in the water solvent of the poly finish and interfere with the polymerization reaction.  It may never dry or if dry the incomplete reaction may leave mostly poly monomers which are essentially just another dirt layer.  In this case, the product is named after a reaction that does not occur, so it is nor poly at all.

 

It was worth a try but I do believe I am asking it to do something it's not made to do.

[Keith Black]

 I polyurethane over acrylic craft painted wood. If I need to add fine detail painted areas once sealed, the polyurethane allows me to wipe the acrylic paint away with a moist Q-Tip if I'm not satisfied with the results. Once I'm happy with the results I then poly over the entirety.

 You might test that approach, seal first then use acrylic black paint for the window details and then seal again. 

 

[ChrisSC]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

 I polyurethane over acrylic craft painted wood. If I need to add fine detail painted areas once sealed, the polyurethane allows me to wipe the acrylic paint away with a moist Q-Tip if I'm not satisfied with the results. Once I'm happy with the results I then poly over the entirety.

 You might test that approach, seal first then use acrylic black paint for the window details and then seal again. 

 

Yes I'm going to stick with like coverings, all acrylics. At least I know there won't be any unsuspected bleeding mess going on with just using acrylic paint. The only reason I considered this ink was the size of the applicator tip was something I could get inside these areas but it's not worth the possible mess that ink brings mixed with a top coat of paint.

[Bob Cleek]

IIRC, dried real India ink should not run under any circumstances. That's why it's used to write on biology specimen tags that can be placed in preservative liquid along with the specimen. It's basically lampblack and water, although shellac is often added in commercial bottled India inks as a binder. The shellac is soluble in alcohol and the alcohol mixes with water. Acrylics are often thinned with water and alcohol, also. There may be some problems with the alcohol in the ink, if any, affecting the alcohol-soluble acrylic paint, but I'd tend to doubt it. What you describe you are trying to do is exactly what India ink is most famously able to do. I think Jaeger offers the best explanation of the phenomenon you have described. 

[ChrisSC]

It's very confusing to me. The reason I posted the question here is that I could not find any discussion online about what I want to do with it. Lots of talk about using it as a wash but nothing close to what I was curious about. I'm not a chemist and I have no prior experience with India Ink so I can only take the advice of the people answering my question. I don't know who is right or wrong about the situation. Someone online had recommended using the India Ink which is why I tried it. I have gotten opinions here and in other places that vary quite a lot. Some say it will be an issue and some not. So far the tiny bit I have used as a test sample is still smudging if I touch it. I'll try again tomorrow and if it's still smudging then I will just go another direction. I am using a waterproof version that comes in a pen from Germany, it was one of the more expensive pens available. I do not see any ingredient breakdown on the pen. Thank you all for your input.

[shipman]

Proper India Ink is waterproof when dry, but it has to be used on an absorbent ground. It will dry on semi glossy paper, but takes forever. It's no good on plastic or an enamel finish.

[ChrisSC]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

Proper India Ink is waterproof when dry, but it has to be used on an absorbent ground. It will dry on semi glossy paper, but takes forever. It's no good on plastic or an enamel finish.

That seems to be exactly what I have observed with it today.

[Chuck Seiler]

Why not black paint?

[ChrisSC]

2 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Why not black paint?

That's what I've decided to do. It's a 1/600 scale SS France so there are just so many tiny windows which are impossible to mask. As you can see here I can mask the general outline of the windows but the actual individual frames are way too small to mask and spray. The windows I just did are actually divided into 3 sections each so I now need to get white paint on two horizontal lines per window. Then there are the sections of windows above what I just painted which basically have the same issues only there are a lot more of them!

 

So my thinking was it would be great if I had something I could apply into each window and do a neater job and save a lot of eyestrain and time. I am going to try and learn how to dry brush and see if I can get white paint somewhat neatly on them that way after painting the black.

[mtaylor]

Personally Chris, at that scale the window look darn good.  I wouldn't try adding frames, etc.  Leave like they are.  If you were building at a larger scale, then it might be worth it.  

[Keith Black]

1/600! My eyes hurt just typing that number. I've had small areas I've painted with the end of a toothpick. If the frames are black you might try flooding the window glass with white paint on the end of a needle or sewing pin. 

[ChrisSC]

9 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

1/600! My eyes hurt just typing that number. I've had small areas I've painted with the end of a toothpick. If the frames are black you might try flooding the window glass with white paint on the end of a needle or sewing pin. 

Yes 1/600 is definitely a challenge lol. This is my second attempt at one. I did a Queen Elizabeth and was really not happy with how the windows came out. I wound up using a paint pen to try and salvage a mess and get the frames white. It was a disappointment. I am hoping to improve on this one so I'm trying different things. I have now crossed India Ink off the list!

[Jaager]

This discussion has me wondering a bit more about scale effect as it applies to color.  

I am wondering if @ 1:600  the black would look better if it were actually a very dark grey.

If it is an Atlantic Ocean vessel,  just a slight hint of green in the dark grey?

[shipman]

Good luck trying to dry brush white over black!

Another issue with the windows (I could be wrong)....directly below boat davits, there shouldn't be windows as that area is part of the support structure. Once that little detail sinks in, it bugs you every time you look at it.

Another solution may be to use your pc and printer to make decals for the windows. Of course you'd have to fill the moulded windows first; not the end of the world. Unfortunately long term uv turns even the best decals yellow.

Once upon a time It may have been practical to use a 'Letraset' product. Like many useful things, that is now a thing of the past.

I continue to watch this space.

[ChrisSC]

I sprayed them instead. The plastic is not very consistent but at this scale they will have to be good enough. There is a trace of white where there should be for the most part. If you are standing next to the model they look OK. The camera magnifies the flaws. I am still debating on how to do the top row which are more prominent.

[shipman]

Not a lot wrong there, lad. Well done.

Just had a thought (you'd have to do a test).....Lightly flood ALL the windows......dry thoroughly.......then with a fine abrasive, skim over the area with the windows until you get back to a white surface.   ????

Then you have the delightful job of drilling all the round port holes out! I reckon there's someone on this forum quite capable of fitting out the interior, with independent cabin lighting.

[mtaylor]

Looks good from here.  Use the method that's working.

[ChrisSC]

Well they did not come out very well as I had feared. The size and quality of the frames are beyond my ability as a painter. I didn't dry brush as the acrylic paint just dried too quickly for what I needed to do. I'll just live with them as is. Many sections of the frames are lower, ragged, and some are missing entirely. I'm just going to leave them be, as Clint Eastwood once said, a man has to know his limitations lol. Thanks again for all the input.

[shipman]

Yep, you can only breathe so much life into an old corpse.  You did good. When these kits were introduced, they were sold for kids pocket money. I actually think we were lucky to have them, faults and all.

Those upper windows are begging to be replaced with photo-etch. But then it becomes a different story altogether.

Thanks for sharing.

[Keith Black]

Chris, before you seal the paint and if that's acrylic black paint, try moistening a Q-Tip or the end of a toothpick with water and rubbing gently on the white frames. You may be able to lift/clear the black paint off the frames. 

[ChrisSC]

16 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Chris, before you seal the paint and if that's acrylic black paint, try moistening a Q-Tip or the end of a toothpick with water and rubbing gently on the white frames. You may be able to lift/clear the black paint off the frames. 

Thanks Keith for the tip. I actually have the opposite problem, the white paint bled into the recessed window areas. The thing is they are so small I don't think there is anything I can do as far as getting inside the recessed areas for any clean up. It could turn into a never ending cycle of getting black on the white and then getting white on the black lol. I think you have to have a talent with a brush for these tiny things which I don't posses. I try to airbrush almost everything I do because I stink at brush painting. From a foot away it looks OK it's just that I'm kind of a perfectionist so sloppy paint bothers me.

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, ChrisSC said:

I don't think there is anything I can do as far as getting inside the recessed areas

 I don't think so either.

 IMHO, I think you have to attack by painting the frames white first and then sealing. Once the sealant is dry paint the panes black and let them dry. Once they're dry, because the frames stand proud of the panes, you should be able remove the black overpaint from the frames with the moist Q-Tip. Once happy with that effort, then add a second coat of sealer. That's the only way I see to do it...........did you ever consider working on something in a larger scale?