What is this wire made of?

[modeller_masa]

To get the thinest and strong metal rigging wire, I bought this 'LCD cutting wire' at aliexpress in China. The desciption says it is used for splitting multi layers of LCD screen.

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005001373913755.html

 

 

It has various diameters such as 0.065mm, and mine are 0.035mm and 0.065mm. Unfortunately, the seller didn't specify its material. I guess it is molybdenum steel or NiCr steel.

 

It is stronger than hair, so I couldn't cut it with scissors or my hand. I needed nippers.

It sticks to magnets.

Its color is like 10K fake gold or oiled copper.

It can be easily bandable and foldable. I can make it various shapes easily and it holds the shape well like a steel wire.

It is not stretchable like a steel wire.

 

 

I didn't like the color for my HMS Victory 1:450, so I decided to dye or tin it.

 

(1) lacquer with shellac metal primer - Failed

(2) Copper dye - Failed

(3) Copper Etchant - Succeded

 

 

The color became a satin black (half matt half gloss).  I used copper etchant which is very commonly used and accessible in SK. The chemical reaction finishes within 2~3 minutes, so the problem was mass production.

 

 

I worried about hard cleaning if I apply the copper etchant to the whole bobbin directly. I used pet case as bobbin.

 

 

The bottom of the picture is the result - 4 meter tinned black wire. I would say that this is enough for 1:450 HMS Victory.

 

+ Keep away from any fire. If you are heavy smoker, don't smoke near of this wire. It burns explosively like a firecracker.

 

By the way, what is the wire made of? I know that NiCr wire is eligible for wooden model ship, but the wire is thicker than this. If I know the material of this cable, I may be able to investigate its longterm chemical stability.

Edited October 27, 2020 by modeller_masa

[BANYAN]

I can't help you with the wire composition Masa, but it has piqued my interest as I have some wire rigging to do very soon.  I  became a little concerned when you mentioned its heat/fire issue though.  Although you would not put a model that close to a heat source, what about inadvertent temperature rises caused by light beaming through windows etc.

 

Like you, I would be very interested in the properties as I was wondering how to source suitably sized wire.  

 

May I also ask why you are seeking a black finish to the wire?  My understanding is that wirerope was treated with boiled linseed oil which, after some time would build up and make the wire darker, probably a silvery brown (darker in the grooves.  Sections of the wire were parceled and served (not wormed) so will have been darker again in those sections?

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by BANYAN

[grsjax]

2 hours ago, modeller_masa said:

It sticks to magnets.

Probably steel coated with copper.  Fine steel wire will burn.

[modeller_masa]

Hello, Pat. 

When I searched about this wire, I accidently found what this is made of.

 

 

They called it 'Molybdenum cutting wire'. It must be sole Molybdenum wire or Molybdenum steel which is commonly used for bicycle frame (Chromoly molybdenum steel). 

 

According to the wikipedia, the Molybdenum is super durable and oxidize coating resists well against water and air. Its temperature expansion is known as minimum among metals . (1/5 of copper)

 

 

The only issue is burning temperature in my interpretation. The oxidize coating burns from 300 celsius, and this wire burns like a firecracker. It seems pretty much dangerous... I tested other materials such as fishing gut, but they don't burn this explosively. I don't have 'metal rigging wires' from Japanese company, so I didn't test them yet.

 

Also, please consider me a newbie. I've never heard about the 'boiled linceed oil method'. I would say that you are considering about 'making multi threads wirerope'. I'm making the Revell's 1/450 HMS Victory and my skill is relatively low. I have a nasty plan to attach this kind of sole wire with CA glue directly. (like the 1/700 modern ship models.) 

 

Hello, grsjax.

Probably molybdenum steel coated with copper...? I didn't imagine that I can't cut this 0.035mm wire with my hands.

Edited October 28, 2020 by modeller_masa

[modeller_masa]

I confirmed that the wire doesn't burn without explicit flame. I tested non-flame temperature test with my digital temperature control iron. At 220 celsius, it didn't burn and change. Therefore, room temperature or sunlight without lens effect won't be a problem.

 

The only issue is that a tiny spark can cut and burn entire wires... I think it is not good for model work...

[wefalck]

Yes, it is Molybdenum and since it is used by smart-phone repair-shops to separate broken glasses from LCD screens, it has become widely available in many different thicknesses. I bought a collection of different diameters a year or two ago to use it, when something very thin brass-like is needed.

 

The wire is very tough and one can easily damage cutting pliers. I tend to score it with a disposable scalpel and then bend it until it breaks. It is also very springy and once you made a bend into it virtually impossible to straighten it out.

 

Many metal wires will burn if you take a very thin one and apply enough heat. As you can see from the above experiment, the burning is not self-sustained, it extinguishes after a few milimeters of burning, once the area heated by the flame has been burnt. What makes you think that a single spark could ignite a whole spool ? Did you try it ? I don't think that a cigarette could set it on fire - I would be more worried about the health effects of smoking actually.

 

So far I only used it to make some micro-handles and such things.

 

As it cannot be annealed like steel, my original intention to make micro wire-rope from it is not likely to work, as it has too much 'memory' and cannot be twisted easily according to my so far limited experience. It's a pity given the small diameters that are available.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by wefalck

[modeller_masa]

Hello, wefalck. Thanks for professional description about the material.

 

The reason I was scared of this wire was an explosion accident. I wrote my hypothesis based on the accident. When I was testing a mass production device of tinned wire seems like a cat's cradle, I made a fire with torch in curiosity. A temperature of the gas torch's fire was 1,200 celsius, and the multiple wires were under some tension...... and exploded within a second literally. The shiny sparks splashed out all over the room. Really fortunately, there was no fire.

 

The upper animated gif picture was captured under a secured condition, and it was burnt less than a second as I made a fire. I don't smoke, but I'm sure that overlapped and twisted molybdenum wire on completed wooden model ship will be burnt more faster and longer than sole wire if smoker touch the tip of a cigarette.

 

 

I constructed a little experiment to prove my intuition. I made a thread that has 7~8 molybdenum wires, and removed tension for safer test. Also, I used normal fire starter.

 

 

The result. It started slower than single wire. after 2~3 seconds, it exploded and splattered short red-fired-wired around a table, and stop to burn.

 

My hypothesis about faster and sensitive burn was wrong due to a heat conduction. However, its explosion damage and heat production increased as an amount of burnt wire increased. You can see the burnt-blackened wires at the end of both wires. It didn't happen on sole wire. It means more heat production. Therefore, if there is more heat source = more wires, I would say that an entire wire can be burnt like a nuclear bomb.

 

 

I'll test a metal rigging thread for consumer market from Japan. I want to check it has same issue or not.

 

[BANYAN]

Thanks for your response masa, and to Wefalck for the additional info on its properties - I think I will scratch that as an option from my list.  It looks beading wire may be the way ahead at the moment. 

 

An interesting topic, many thanks for raising it masa.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[modeller_masa]

Hello. 

I bought additional test matter. It is (2) the Modelkasten Metal rigging thread from Japan. Its thickness is 0.06mm, and the length is only 5 meter for $25.

 

The color of the (2) is less blacker than (3) Tinned molybdenum wire. Also, it is a bit more shiny than (3)-T.

 

The other mechanical characteristics are very similar to the $7 cheap molybdenum wire.

 

 

And... Metal ignition test... (2) Modelkasten metal wire also burns well more than (3) molybdenum wire...

 

I think the Modelkasten uses a slightly different metal, but it is more dangerous than molybdenum wire. If you are using the Modelkasten metal rigging wire, the molybdenum wire will be 1/60 cheaper alternatives. If you are a smoker or care about safety, stick to traditional threads.

Edited November 7, 2020 by modeller_masa

[wefalck]

What is this Modelkasten-wire made off, gold ? Actually not: if you calculate it, volume of 1 m of wire is 0.03x0.03x3.1415x1000 = 2.82 mm^3  and 1 g of gold costs 63 USD, hence 2.82 mm^3 of gold cost 3,46 USD, which means that 1 m of gold wire with a diameter of 0.06 mm costs 3,46 USD as opposed to the 5 USD of the Modelkasten wire !

 

I tend to avoid buying from model supply houses. They buy normal industrial materials and tools and resell them to unsuspecting modellers. OK, sometimes it is difficult to buy small quantities from distributors or manufacturers and one has to pay a prime for this.

 

As a smoker (which I am not) I would be more weary of flammable solvents and glues in the workshop than a wire that is not normally touched with a flame anyway - and I may not see my models age due to the health implications of smoking ....

[Roger Pellett]

I am not a smoker and can’t imagine someone smoking while trying to build a rigged sailing ship model.  Virtually everything burns, some of it quite quickly.

 

Roger

[mtaylor]

I've been and am (though quitting) a smoker.  Never, ever smoked in the workshop. Chemicals, wood dust in the air and even on the floor is a combination I didn't want to risk.  Same for torches... if I need to use the torch, I do it outside.

[Dr PR]

I have followed this topic with interest. I looked around on the Internet and found a company (GoodFellow) that sells very fine high purity wire, down to 0.01 mm, much finer than the "LCD cutting wire." And you can get it in a variety of elements and alloys, even very toxic elements like beryllium. However, a meter of 0.01 mm very pure copper wire was US$459!

 

A source of very fine copper wire is "extremely flexible" stranded test lead wire. We used some of this in a project a while back. It comes in a variety of strands and wire sizes up to 1064 strands of 56 AWG wire ( 0.000492 inch, 0.0125 mm diameter). 10 feet (3.049 meters) for US$26.43 (Mueller Electric WI-M-10-10-0, Mouser 548-WI-M-10-10-0). That is 10 feet x 1064 strands = 10,640 feet (3243 meters). That should last a while!

 

Virtually all metals will burn in air if they are fine enough. But wood, plastic, thread and just about anything else that is 0.02 mm diameter will also burn in air if heated hot enough. So it is pointless to worry about fine wires burning. By the time the wire is hot enough the rest of the model will be ashes.

 

 

[modeller_masa]

 

I got a hint from Phil's post. It is hard to buy 56 AWG copper wires or unusually expensive. Instead of splitting stranded AWG wires, I bought logic board jumper wire. It is a pure copper wire with 0.010mm and 0.020mm diameters. ($2.99 per each for 50 meter)

 

 

It is super thin that it feels like a cloth. Unfortunately, it is also weaker than a molybdenum wire, that very small force can cut the wire which means it can't be used as solid wire. 

 

 

Compared with 0.035mm molybdenum wire. It looks like real 0.010mm pure copper wire. Of course, it burns well.

 

This is the end of my journey. I'll stick to the molybdenum wire or thicker copper wire when I learn how to make wire ropes.

Edited November 15, 2020 by modeller_masa

[wefalck]

These phone repair guys have lots of interesting stuff. There is also silver wire at 0.007 mm diameter.

 

When trying to make my own 'wire rope', I found it quite difficult to twist up more than two wires, because it is difficult to to get equal tension on all the strands and when you pull to tension them, these thin wires easily snap.

[modeller_masa]

Thanks for interesting know-how, wefalck. I have a plan to make my first rope machine with 3D printer. I'll show you if I success to make a rope with this 0.01mm copper wire.  

[wefalck]

You won't need a rope-walk as such, but of course, you can do it on it. Unlike threads, each wire does not need to be twisted in itself, just the wires need to twisted together. So two hooks are sufficient, one of them spinning.

 

Some years ago I constructed a rope-walk (according to the proposal of Frölich, with two spinning heads) from an old bakelite optical bench that I inherited from my father. It does not allow to adjust the tension steadily, so it turned out not to be so suitable for making twisted wire. I think I will now use the lathe and devise something to exert a steady pull on the hand-lever tailtstock. I only need short lengths of wire-rope, so it should be ok.

 

Just ordered some of the 0.007 mm silver wire as I will need soon some light wire rope in 1:160 to stay the funnel and the signal mast on my current project. Should arrive here sometime in December. Let's see how that goes.