HMS Victory by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100 - PLASTIC

[Old Collingwood]

Bill can I add some ideas for your build a little further down the road?   when you get to build the masts and spars/yardarms,  I assume the kit has these as two part  mast assemblies  (left and right parts that join to make the mast)   plastic alone might not be all that tough  - what you could do  (same as I did on my Black Pearl kit)  is to invest in some different thickness wood dowels  then make them fit inside the plastic ones and enclose the  plastic ones with the wood dowels inside.

This will give the masts some considerable strength for when you start doing the rigging.

If you also replace the spars/yardarms  for wood dowels versions  (just use the plastic ones as a template)  this again will make so much difference for the rigging  to save the plastic ones from bending or even snapping.

 

Hope you didn't mind me suggesting this?

 

OC.

[Bill97]

Another great idea OC. I did that with a mast or two in the past but never a yard. How did you connect the wooden yard to the plastic mast?  Do you have a build log for your Black Pearl?  Would love to read/see it.

[Old Collingwood]

16 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Another great idea OC. I did that with a mast or two in the past but never a yard. How did you connect the wooden yard to the plastic mast?  Do you have a build log for your Black Pearl?  Would love to read/see it.

It was a long build but my pleasure to  post the link to it,  it was from the Excellent Revell  kit  and I bashed it by adding my own wood  decking, some re built wood details  - my own  shrouds  using  wood deadeyes and thread  and a few figures  - had to have some pirates.

 

OC.

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Yes that picture is during my build. You mean the gun rigging? I left off the steady tackles to the deck rings; the rest is pretty standard but I cheated and just attached the breeching rope and train tackles to a single pair of eyelets beside the gunports (now that I think of it, these holes for the eyelets are best drilled before you glue the hull halves. And even before your final exterior paint in case you accidentally drill through 😉.

 

OC is right about increasing mast stiffness. In my case, though, I used wood dowels, but a bicycle spoke inside the mizzen mast because the cavity was a small diameter for a piece of wood. It worked great but got in the way when I drilled a hole in the front of the mast for a piece of brass rod to hold the cro'jack yard while I rigged it.

 

I didn't have any issues with the plastic spars. I planned to make a new flying jib boom from a bamboo skewer but in the end used the plastic part. It is cased after all.

 

Glad you mentioned attaching yards to masts. Wood or plastic, Heller provides no means of doing it. I planned to mention this much later in your build, but to summarize: (1) The lower yards are attached by "truss pendants" (and supported by jeers and sling) which you can find out about in books. However, you'll need to add some eyebolts with attached blocks to the quarterdeck at the foot of each mast and you need to add a couple of cleats to the front of each mast; all this to rig the pendants which Heller ignored. (2) the other yards are attached by "parrals" which you probably already know about from your other ship models.Again, Heller ignores them. You can make them from seed beads later.

 

In my case I drilled and attached short brass rods at the centre of all yards, which were inserted into holes drilled in the masts. I did not glue them to the masts, to allow them to give a little if I bumped them while rigging. The rods hold the yards while you rig their parrals or whatever, and are invisible afterward.

 

Again I emphasize - obtain a copy of Longridge's book which goes into great detail on all specifics of Victory's rigging 🙂.  To whet your appetite, here is one of the many fine (and helpful) drawings in it (shroud sequence partially cut off):

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[Old Collingwood]

22 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Another great idea OC. I did that with a mast or two in the past but never a yard. How did you connect the wooden yard to the plastic mast?  Do you have a build log for your Black Pearl?  Would love to read/see it.

I lashed and glued the yards to the mast just  by passing some  twine/thread over the yard and around the mast then a wee bit of CA glue to hold the knot.

 

OC.

[Ian_Grant]

Bill here is an example of a parral made with seed beads and some tiny slivers of wood, drilled. It's relatively easy to rig the parral with the brass rod retaining the yard in place.

 

 

 

[Bill97]

A lot of great advice and information. I often wonder as I read comments from you guys and others what parts are actually included with the kit (blocks, eye bolts, etc) for rigging the cannons, masts, etc?  I am not so far into the build to do an inventory of all the rigging parts I will need compared to what is supplied. I have an assortment of wooden deadeyes I plan to use but without going through every step of the instructions and counting “I need 3 deadeyes there, 2 eye bolts there, and so on” how in the world do you know in advance what you are going to need, especially if you “bash” the model and refer to other sources like Longridge’s book? I would not expect a model builder would attempt a model of the complexity of the 1/100 Heller Victory as their first build with no experience, but if they did, and were completely unaware of sites like MSW, they would not know about parrals and such. I am so thankful for you guys help. Many say this model is fantastic right out of the box with no modifications but some of the things mentioned that Heller “forgot” seem to be more than items that would simply enhance the model. Some seem like things you actually need to do to complete it. I can only imagine someone without help from other builders throwing their hands up in frustration having absolutely no idea how to complete a task like simply attaching a yard to the mast. 

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian for your picture of the parrals. I would really like to copy that for sure. A this your design or did you see instructions for making this somewhere. I know I have a long while before I will need these but if you could explain your steps I would really appreciate it. 
 

Bill

[Old Collingwood]

Another idea  - do your fittings on your deck  before closing up your hull as you will have a  cleaner / more easy  area to paint the details  of the deck fittings  (except the canons as thay need the bulwarks to work off)

 

OC.

[Bill97]

Ian is the title of Longridge’s book The Anatomy of Nelson’s Ship?

[Bill97]

Thanks. I will look for it. The one diagram you showed above was enough to convince me!

[Ian_Grant]

27 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Ian is the title of Longridge’s book The Anatomy of Nelson’s Ship?

Yes, that's the one. I should mention that of its 272 pages, the detailed rigging description occupies about 70 pages; the rest deals with scratching a wooden hull and fittings and is very little use to the plastic modeller. There is a much smaller book, "Classic Ships: HMS Victory" by Noel Hackney, which demonstrates how to enhance the smaller Airfix Victory. It goes through all the same rigging stuff with rope and block sizes but has far less detailed diagrams, though adequate. If you are budget conscious I assume this little book would be far cheaper and you still have MSW to assist.

 

For your other question, the truth is that, going by build logs I have seen, most people who start this kit never finish. You have to be pretty dogged to overcome the terrible instructions and know to buy wood blocks and deadeyes. I actually bought my kit in 1983 but life got busy and it was started only a few years ago after my kids got big. Had I started it then, without the internet and its invaluable search tools and forums, I probably would not have finished, or at least it would not have been near as nice. Remember the days when all you had was a local hobby shop (there were good ones) and looking at the ads in "Model Boat" magazine for materials? 😀 How would I ever have learned of Longridge's book?

 

Regarding parrals, here is a pic from Longridge. I just bought some seed beads of appropriate size, filed a piece of maple to the cross section, drilled, then sliced it up with an exacto knife. Then sort through the pieces for the best.

 

 

And for example here is a page from Hackney's book. Short and sweet. His scale block sizes are for the smaller Airfix model, not for 1/100 but you can convert his actual size to suit.

 

[Bill97]

Thank Ian. You are a great help. 
 

Bill

[Bill97]

I guess a question I have might be how much bashing would be needed to complete the model successfully?  I know for sure I have learned a lot and have already done some bashing (Daniel’s etched parts, thickening the gun ports and the wales, etc.). I fully plan to do further bashing as I move along. But I am curious if there is some bashing that is a must in order to complete the build? Bashing that if not done will leave the builder completely frustrated as to how to proceed  using the out of box instructions only to the point they give up.  
Or based on your experience is the kit and instructions such that a builder could complete it successfully, and have a model they can be proud of?  I know I do not have the skills to replicate the build Daniel did (Daniel that is a sincere compliment to the incredible job you did). I do know I have the skills to up the model beyond strictly out of box.  So my goal is somewhere between the two. Not strictly 100 percent authentic to the actual Victory setting in port, to include all the rigging, but an impressive model I can be proud to have built. In the bashing can you say I think I will do that and also say no I don’t think I will bash that but just follow the instructions there? Asking this to get my mind fully wrapped around my quest ahead. 
 

Bill

[Ian_Grant]

Bill I guess the short answer is "it depends".  It depends on what level of detail you would be satisfied with given the required effort. From the look of your other ships I know you can easily complete the Victory. It must be overwhelming having us throw information at you, but know that this kit makes an incredible model.

 

I would say the minimum "bashing" requirement is trashing the supplied blocks and deadeyes, buying more sizes of thread in black and natural, improving the lower chains and the stanchions, thickening the port linings, attaching the yards properly, and adding the "saddle" (another Heller "oopsie") to the mizzen mast to support the driver boom. The hull, guns, decks, masts, and spars are very detailed and accurate.

 

There are many other little changes you can make for further enhancement. Some of the physical mods I made include Daniel's binnacle (which you are getting), Daniel's boarding pike racks (ditto), Daniel's skylight (ditto), poop deck ladder handrails, buying and adding scale stream and kedge anchors, opening up one of the stern flag lockers. You can also spend much time adding the missing internal framing to the ship's boats which really significantly improves them.

 

For those really into extra detail, the poop skylight is slightly too far forward and could be shifted, the bower anchor shoes should be between the 2nd and 3rd chains not the 1st and 2nd, the Prince of Wales feathers on the stern are wrong, the deck plank shift pattern is wrong. I did nothing about any of these, though I would have moved the anchor shoes had I known before it was too late and risky.

 

Once you are armed with Longridge, the rigging is do-able. You need to plan it well though. I omitted all staysail rigging and all slab lines and signal halyards.  You could reasonably omit all bowlines too if rigging without sails; I rigged them anyway and hitched them to the yards. I did add anchor buoys at the fore shrouds. I also added fore and main royal yards (not supplied) stowed lashed inside the topmast shrouds, and fore lower stunsail booms (not supplied) stored on the skid beams.

 

I hope this shows you the scope we are talking about. You can choose how obsessive to be about the job.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[Bill97]

Thanks again Ian. That is very encouraging. I am I guess looking for assurance that as I move along I can bash as I feel I want but if I am satisfied with what the instructions tell me to do I can still be successful in this build. Based on your encouragement I believe I can. What started my curiosity is the picture of your ship showing the cannons. Your carriages show rigging using rings, eye bolts, and blocks. After seeing your picture I checked the instructions with the kit to see if this rigging and parts are included. It is not so I need to decide if I want to replicate what you did, which I like a lot, and if so purchase the necessary rigging parts. If not, I just do it simply as shown in drawing. My choice. So I guess that is the way it will be throughout as I move along. Really appreciate you Ian. 
 

Bill

[Hubac's Historian]

Yes, I absolutely think you can add detail at your will.  I think what you may find is that making these additions has a cumulative seductive effect.  The improvements you make might motivate you to continue making improvements, so that gradually you totally settle into the process of making the model, without stressing too much about the finish line.  Everyone finds their “hard-line” when it comes to adding/changing this or that.  Some things will be worth the effort to you, personally, while some will not - and all of that is perfectly okay.

[Ian_Grant]

I remembered one other thing for the "not necessary but nice" category is to make two "fish davits" (not supplied) and stow on forecastle. Basically just two square timbers with some beveling. I agree with Marc - it's a slippery slope once you start improving the model.

[Bill97]

I am very much looking more forward to the trip (building the ship, including bashing) rather than the actual finish. Based on what you guys have said this could easily be a couple years or more of enjoyment which I am so much looking forward to.   And I agree with both of you that once you start bashing you get the fever!  I know I have after adding the Evergreen to the gunports and seeing all I can do with Daniel’s sheets. There is a bit of pride in being able to use one’s own talents to improve on the kit. Maybe like the difference in a paint-by-number painting and an actual artist’s painting. In very much takes talent a patience to follow the instructions step 1, step 2, and so on. But to be able to add to those steps your own artistic expression in very rewarding. I want to do as much bashing as I think I have the talent to do, and can afford to do.  I expect different builders have different bashings as well. Just have to research, read, and get smart as I go along. Hope you guys are on board for most of it, and you too Daniel!  
 

Bill

[dafi]

Of course I will. See it as luck or a curse 😉

 

One remark: It is a pleasure to help. Still it is your build and if ever I say too much please give a sign.

 

XXXDAn

[Bill97]

Thanks Dan. I got an update saying my package processed through Frankfurt Flughafen!  Woo Hoo it is on its way to my anxious fingers. Never stop telling me bashing options. I would rather know and decide against it than not know until it is to Kate to do it. 😊

 

Bill

[Kevin-the-lubber]

On 6/30/2021 at 5:03 AM, Bill97 said:

would not expect a model builder would attempt a model of the complexity of the 1/100 Heller Victory as their first build with no experience

It does happen, Bill (he says wryly). Ambition outweighs talent and all that. Knowing about these forums is a mixed blessing. If The Heller instructions had been better I’d have probably finished my Victory within a few months and remained blissfully unaware of the various sites. However, as it would have almost certainly been of a very poor standard, by now it would have been landfill and that would have been me done and dusted with modelling. Instead of which, bemused by the poor destructions guide, I found Pete Coleman’s site and Daniels log in particular, and I’m still at it. As an aside, if someone had told me, at the beginning, that the kit itself was only going to represent a fraction of the end cost, I’d have thought twice.
 

Although I would absolutely endorse any advice, to beginners, to start with something easier, I think the challenges would be the same regardless; if you want a really high quality end product you’re going to have to put in the hours, be very patient, and be very creative. I think too that if the base mouldings we’re not as good as they are, I might have quit altogether quite early on and, in that sense, Victory is not a bad place to start; you’re not fighting to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear, more trying to exploit the full potential of something already pretty good.  I hope to one day move on to something like the Soliel Royale, but understand the quality is not nearly as good, so the Victory experience may prove useful.

[Bill97]

Hello Kevin. I agree with your thoughts about the Victory, especially the growing end cost!  But hey, I don’t have any other costly vices so I can convince myself I deserve it 😉.

Been away from my Victory, and this site for a few days. Back now sorting cannon carriage parts to begin the assembly. Think I will complete one gun size, then switch to some other part of the build, then complete the next size gun. Should help maintain sanity!  Going to do the thirty 32 pound guns first. Started off by making the barrels. I then put a primer and light base coat on the carriage parts. I will now assemble the thirty carriages, finish painting them, weather the barrels a bit, and then attach them to the carriages. Wish me luck. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

That’s exactly where I began 8 or 9 years ago! But in my haste and ignorance I made a mistake, canting the carriage sides slightly inwards from the vertical. I only realised this was wrong when I visited the Victory not long afterwards. Not really a problem though as I’ll be replacing all of these with my own resin printed versions, when I get to it. As an engineering type my logic was that you’d need a little camber to make the carriage roll straight. (As if that mattered over that distance!).

 

Currently I’m re-reading Daniels log again but more systematically this time, making notes of which ideas I want to incorporate and those I won’t or couldn’t. As I’m sure you already know, it’s a goldmine….. in every sense. Did any gold miner ever walk away saying, ‘I know there’s still millions of nuggets in there but I now have enough….’.

[dafi]

😆😆😆

 

XXXDAn

[Bill97]

Yes Kevin those little pieces are a joy to put together 😳.

Many may ask why we builders put so much time and effort to parts that don’t fully show? Which is about 50 of these guns. Just our little pleasure I guess. Daniel, your log is a goldmine just as Kevin said. I have in fact tried to figure out a way to print parts of it so I could just turn the pages of a book to follow along. But obviously that would be a monster of a task. 

[Old Collingwood]

1 hour ago, Bill97 said:

Yes Kevin those little pieces are a joy to put together 😳.

Many may ask why we builders put so much time and effort to parts that don’t fully show? Which is about 50 of these guns. Just our little pleasure I guess. Daniel, your log is a goldmine just as Kevin said. I have in fact tried to figure out a way to print parts of it so I could just turn the pages of a book to follow along. But obviously that would be a monster of a task. 

Because we know we did them and  that they are there.

 

OC.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Indeed, and there are so many lovely little details that may prove hard to resist at least attempting. Something I’ve come to understand is that a build on this scale and at this level of detail isn’t really one model at all, is it - it’s dozens of models all brought together as one, some easy, some quite tricky and the end result will only be as good as the ‘worst-made’ part, up to a point. For me this is a useful perspective. Bill, I’ll be watching your build with interest. Although I technically started mine 8 or 9 years ago, in reality I only properly sank my teeth into this model last year so I’m not that far ahead of you.

[Bill97]

Kevin you mentioned that you made the mistake of canting your carriage sides inward. I have noticed on mine that the sides of the carriage are slightly closer in the front than the back. They pretty much follow the shape of the barrel. I am hoping that is correct. 

[Bill97]

Kevin until now my most “Because we know we did them and  that they are there” was on my Revell 1/96 USS Constitution. I know on this build of the Victory there will be many, but until now the complete Captain’s quarters and the rigged 32 cannons on the lower deck has to be my things you do that will never be seen biggest task.