HMS Victory by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100 - PLASTIC

[Ian_Grant]

HaHa!!  We love watching Jeopardy!

 

(I already knew the names and purposes of most of the lines before the build)

[Kevin-the-lubber]

19 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Kevin put the ol tradesman eye on these top masts and the mast tops from the front

All good from here Bill! Very good in fact. I have dim recollections from my youth that it was always quite hard to end up with the masts perfectly aligned, usually down to a little warping or whatever, so you should be happy.

 

The Vasa/Wasa, depending on your origins: pretty, but ot nearly so pretty as the Soliel Royale or my other crush, the Caroline. And at 1:150, too small.

 

Keep giving us the detail Bill, rope by rope, this is invaluable. I'm even more in the dark than you when it comes to all these words and names. I guess you learn them as you need to.

[Bill97]

I will do my best Kevin if I don’t wear out Ian and he put me on caller ID so he can ignore my request 😀. 
 

As you know I have the Heller 1/100 Soleli Royal in my stash just waiting for me to learn everything I need from working on the Victory. Looking through my cabinet yesterday I remembered I also have the Airfix Golden Hind unopened in my stash. Forgot about it. Not sure I want to go back down to that scale again. 

[Bill97]

OK Ian based on your instructions and clarification of Longridge’s book, I think I have the running rigging lines that run from the left and right of the belfry up through the paired sets of blocks under the foremast top and coiled for future rigging to their designated end points. Is it correct that the lines run on an angle directly from the rear blocks down to the belfry?

[Ian_Grant]

Yes, that's correct. Don't forget to tie the main buntlines to the bitts before adding shrouds, because the area gets caged in as you can now imagine 🙂

[Bill97]

Thanks my friend. Let’s see if I can rig the main top now. 👍

[Hubac's Historian]

Daniel’s PE set really does add so much nice detail to the model!

[Bill97]

OK let’s throw out another area for discussion that I will be encountering soon. Attaching the yards to the masts and bowsprit. We all know Heller does not mold anchor points into the yards and masts to accomplish this task. From reading Longridge’s book I see a mechanism called a parrel (did I spell that correct?).  Is this mechanism used for all 3 yards on each mast and the two on the bowsprit (11 total)?  If not, which ones use the parrel and which don’t? Is there a good technique for making these things and how do you actually use them on the model?  What attaching method is used to attach yards that don’t use the parrel?  Ian I promise I am going to read through Longridge’s book several times to see if I can find this answer. 

[Old Collingwood]

Yep  - Parrel  is a  loop of  wooden beads  that sit on a  length of rope  and  are passed  around the yard arm  and then around the mast  - the idea is  that when the yard is lowered/lifted  the  parrels slide down the  mast  and  same allowing left/right movement  for sail  alignment.

 

Not sure if you can  get scale accurate ones for you build  - or perhaps you can  scratch build some.

 

OC.

[Bill97]

Wow OC I did not expect an answer so quick!  Is a parrel used on all of the yards? How about attaching the two to the bowsprit?

[Old Collingwood]

11 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Wow OC I did not expect an answer so quick!  Is a parrel used on all of the yards? How about attaching the two to the bowsprit?

I think they were used  on all moving yard/masts  - not sure about the bowsprit yards  - possibly as I assume they would move them  along   masts there,     my understanding is  they are fed up and over the  yard  both sides of the mast then  passed around the  back of the mast  - you could  tie then off at the back of the mast  making the parrels meet.

 

OC.

[Bill97]

👍 thanks OC. I will see if I can find a technique to make them. Do you assume the yards on the model are actually lose and held in place by the parrel and rigging, or somehow glued in position with the parrels just for appearance?

[Old Collingwood]

1 minute ago, Bill97 said:

👍 thanks OC. I will see if I can find a technique to make them. Do you assume the yards on the model are actually lose and held in place by the parrel and rigging, or somehow glued in position with the parrels just for appearance?

If it was me  - I would   work out were I wanted the yards to  be  - lowered  or in place when the sails  were  set/dropped  down, also  depends if you was to  just do here  with no sails and no running rigging, then glue the yard in place  - then attach the Parrel.

Three main questions  -

1)  Was the Full   sail  set up always with the   yards  raised  into position.

2)  Did they lower the yards  when the sails were furled.

3)  Did they take the sails  down off the yards  when not in use  - with the yards lowered.

 

OC.

[tomganc]

Tat's superb progress! I cannot wait to see more rigging as this adds tons of details and she will start looking alive

 

Are you going to serve the first shroud all the way to the deadeye as in original?

 

Reards

Tom

[72Nova]

Looking Bill👍.  The bowsprit yards use slings and the lower fore and main yards use truss pendants, hope this helps.?

 

Michael D.

[Bill97]

Thanks guys. This information is very helpful. 

safemaster I will now research the slings for the bowsprit and truss pendants for the lower yards. 

[Ian_Grant]

Bill,

 

The weight of the lower yards is borne by their jeers and their sling, see PLAN No 8 (from outer space?).

 

[As an aside, I had that plan pinned up at my desk at work for many years. One day someone who was talking to me asked, "What IS that anyway?]

 

The yards are restrained to the mast by the truss pendants, see Fig 171 (the pendants don't appear to be shown in PLAN 8). These pendants, when loosened, allow the yard centre to move forward away from the mast. This allows the yard to be pivoted slightly farther around before its leeward arm hits the leeward foremost shroud, allowing the ship to sail a little closer to the wind.

 

Topsail and topgallant yards have parrals, see Fig 139, to allow them to slide up and down the greased masts. The sprit topsail yard also employs a parral since it must slide in and out along the jib boom. The spritsail yard has no parral as it remains in place, see Fig 167.

 

For model building purposes, I drilled small holes in the masts and yards and used pieces of brass rod to locate the yards. The rods are invisible after rigging. I made parrals from seed beads and little slivers of shaped maple. It was relatively simple to lash these to the yards since yards were attached by the brass rods. Here is an example. The topsail yard is lowered because I am rigging "bare poles". Please excuse the dust.....🙄

 

[Bill97]

Ian as usual you have come through perfectly!  No way I could do this without your help. The brass rod through the yard and into the mast is exactly what I needed to know. I am still so amazed at you finding the answers in Longridge’s book as proven by your references. Since my plan is either no sails or all furled, I know Heller here is a difference in where the yard is placed. I still look back to my Revell 1/96 USS Constitution instructions for hints. Of all my builds so far it was the only one that gave instructions as to the options of where to mount the yards with and without sails, how to rake the yards with are without sails, and where to place the extensions for the yards (I forget what they are called) if fully rigging with sails or not. I know the Constitution is a US ship and the Victory a British but I assume some of the building engineering was similar. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Bill, are you planning on using the rat lines jig that comes with the kit? People seem ambivalent about its usefulness and I’m interested in why; I think I’ll need to make some dummy / provisional shrouds shortly for the CS and thought I might use the Vic jig.

[Bill97]

Kevin I have never tried using one of those line jigs. Airfix included one with their Vasa. I plan to just tie them the old fashioned way. Up around the mast with a served thread and to the deadeyes. Once all shrouds in place I will prepare a card with lines parallel and spaced. Put it behind the shrouds and tie knots to follow the lines. Takes forever but I like it. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Bill97

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, re your query about pics of bowsprit rigging:  apparently I didn't take many shots of this area but here are a couple I found which may be of use.

 

This one shows an early stage. You can see the three threads from the single blocks attached to eyebolts over each roundhouse, ready to rig into tackles for the guys (see pg 266) which each end in a double block (see bottom pg 227 / top pg 228). Also seen are the collars for the main stay and preventer, which you should think about now as access rapidly diminishes in this area. You can also just make out the blocks attached to the front of the knighthead.

 

This pic shows the boomkin guys rigged with thimbles. Also the block for the fore tack to which I added a small piece of wood to create the shoulder.

 

This shot shows how very busy the forecastle rail gets with multiple ropes belayed on each timberhead. Of note is that the forecastle hands were the oldest and most experienced in the ship since they had to handle both the foremast and the headsails etc. At the extreme left you can just make out the jib traveller, with the jibstay and inner martingale attached to it. Sadly the traveller inhaul and outhaul cannot be made out.

 

I took a couple of new shots through the case (then the camera battery died 😭).

This shot shows the blocks crowded above the spritsail yard through which the martingales and fore royal stay pass (see pg 227 "Martingales"). These then connect via tackles to some of the blocks on the knightheads (see notes at top of pg 266).

 

This shot shows the guys rigged with the aforementioned blocks over the roundhouse. You can also make out the tackles at the knighthead. Note the multiple ropes per timberhead, it must have been a bear to operate.

 

Lastly, Longridge lacks a clear diagram of the inhaul and outhaul arrangements for the travellers. Here is a shot from my notes, where I was trying to make sense of it. It's pretty sloppy so I will summarize: The inhaul is straightforward; from an eyebolt on the bowsprit cap, through a block on the traveller (see Fig 164 pg 235) and back to a timberhead. The outhaul runs from the shackle on the traveller, through the sheave hole at the outer end of the jib boom, and back to a long tackle block which I made by gluing two blocks together. The pendant for the outhaul starts on the ar*e (Edit: I had the full word typed in but when submitted it changed to ****, LOL) of a single block on the port side of the cap, runs through the long tackle block, back through the single, again through the long block, then to a timberhead.

 

 

 

That should help you out................

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Ian_Grant
sp

[Bill97]

Fantastic Ian. So appreciated. This should help me a lot. 

[Bill97]

Ian after looking over your photos and instructions above I have come to the conclusion YOU ARE LONGRIDGE!  Come on admit it. Am I right?  Am I the first  to unmask you? 😀  You wrote the book, right?

What is so crazy to me is the way you connect the dots in YOUR book. When you spell it out to me (that line is aaaa line and it passes through a double block before attaching to timber bbbb), and then you provide the Figure, Plates, Plan, and text page from the book, it is perfectly clear. The information is right there in front of me. I may have read over that chapter in the book once or twice but still unable to connect with he dots. Very impressive my friend. I still think a big handicap for me is not being fluent in the nautical names of the particular lines. I STILL THINK YOU ARE IAN LONGRIDGE! 😀

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, one shortcoming of my Longridge's book is that many rigging lines are depicted only partly in diagrams, and there are critical bits of related info in text, often many pages away. It makes for a lot of page flipping back and forth. As you say, the information is right there in front of you, but difficult to connect sometimes.

 

Are you aware of "Rigging Period Ship Models" by Lennarth Petersson?  I bought it partway through my Victory build. This very useful book depicts each line in a beautifully clear single diagram. Just look the name up in the index, flip to the page, and behold - crystal clarity. There is no text at all in this book other than a foreword and page titles. If you want to familiarize yourself with the rigging this is a great book. However, it does not go into the actual purpose of any given piece of rigging, although the purpose can often be inferred when viewing the diagrams. Further reading may be necessary .....ie yet other books.

 

Note that Petersson made these detailed sketches from contemporary models of a particular ship, namely the frigate "Melampus", so the details such as the belaying pin location need to be adjusted. Also, first rates like Victory differed in other details compared to a frigate. However, Petersson can be used to get the idea, then consult my Longridge's book for further nitty-gritty.

 

Here are a couple of examples from Petersson, a propos of what we have just been talking about.

 

 

 

And another just for luck:

 

 

[Bill97]

 Ian that is exactly what I am talking about. I look at Plan 10 in Longridge’s book and see the different lines tied to the eyebolts and blocks over the round house: Jibboom Guy, Guy  Pendant, and Flying Jibboom Guy. My mind immediately says what in the frick frack are those. So I turn to the index in the back, find the name, go to the page the index refers me to and find text explaining the line with an inclusion of a plate, figure, and or plane number to actually see it. Four steps for any line I am not familiar with. Of course this is 100 times better than trying to use Heller instructions by themselves. Luckily I am familiar with a number of terms (stays, shrouds, etc.). Those I can go right to work on. I don’t know if you have seen any of Revell’s 1/96 rigging instructions. They are great and I admit I am even looking to them for help. If you have not seen them, I attached a few photos. 

'

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Any of you guys recognize this? I have a set of HMS Victory building instruction that are not in English. I think they are Heller because the part numbers seem to be the same. I the section on rigging (one of the several references I look to) there is this diagram of blocks rigged to the gammoning. I do not find a similar instruction in my English version and I have not found anything similar in Longridge’s book. I may very well be guilty of overlooking it in the book. 

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, yes I built the Revell CS and Connie many years ago. I think I still have the instructions.

 

No, I don't recognize the blocks tied to the gammoning (which incidentally is drawn incorrectly wound). Can't see which lines they want to tie to these blocks but I would guess they are the ones that ought to go to the knighthead blocks.

[Kevin-the-lubber]

Those are the Imai instructions, I have them too, downloaded from somewhere and that's what my file is labelled as. No idea about the blocks though.

[Bill97]

Worked on adding eyebolts and blocks to the knightheads and roundhouses which will be used for later rigging. Thanks again Ian for the photos and Longridge reference. I did not tie the blocks off to the eyebolts yet. I am debating rigging these lines in reverse. Cut a length of appropriate thread and attach the double block to the end of it. Then use a laniard to connect it to the corresponding single block on the knighthead or roundhouse establishing the most appealing space between the matching blocks. Then rig the line in reverse to its end (beginning point).  I think this process will be easier especially for the 6 blocks on the knightheads. 
I also made two new spritsail yards. Wanted to make yards that were stronger than the ones included with the kit. The lower spritsail yard I made from a wooden rod sanded to shape. The upper yard is so thin I did not think one made of wood would be much stronger so I went with a copper rod. It is satisfactory for strength. I will need to use some ingenuity to determine how to attach a copper rod to a plastic bowsprit 

[Bill97]

Was able to engineer how I am going to attach the spritsail yard based on your recommendation. I drilled a small hole at the center of the new wood yard, inserted a small length of copper rod with CA glue, and drilled a matching hole in the underside of the bowsprit. Once I attach the foot ropes and necessary blocks I will attach the yard and the attaching rigging. Still need to figure out the brass forward spritsail yard. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Bill97