Ships of the early 17th century: pictures

[Mark P]

Good Evening Everyone;

 

I am looking for pictures of early 17th century English naval vessels, up to around 1650. If any members have suggestions for a good source, or have pictures which they would be happy to send me copies of, I would be grateful to hear from them. 

 

This can be engravings or paintings, or perhaps woodcuts if these are not overly generic. If any members with access to a time machine can send me actual photographs of any of these ships, I would be unable to express my gratitude sufficiently!

 

Also ships' fittings, armament, dockyards, or any related maritime subjects from the same period; copyrighted or uncopyrighted. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Louie da fly]

Look at the designs of Mathew Baker (1530-1630) (do a Google image search) for typical galleons of the late 16th-early 17th century. And of course, there's the Sovereign of the Seas, but that was far bigger than the usual run of the mill ships. You might also look at https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/sites/default/files/archcant/1990 107 Chatham Dockyard and a Little-Known Shipwright Matthew Baker (1530 - 1613) Blatcher.pdf

 

If you don't want to restrict yourself to English ships, there's the Vasa (1629).

 

I'm sure others will be able to make other suggestions.

 

Steven

Edited August 2, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Jaager]

Willem van de Velde the elder has some work from before 1650.

 

The Galleon by Peter Kirsch may have a few illustrations that are after 1600.

 

There is a major spike in interest and available material  from 1588  and another from around 1660 on.  What was in between, and it was a period of major transition , seems to be lost to the fog of time. 

[Mark P]

Thanks Steven;

 

Matthew Baker is on my list of research items to be studied. I already have a reasonable amount of material about him, but not the 'Fragments' as yet. There are various copies/photographs at the NMM, and I will also look at the original at the Pepys Library in Cambridge. While the NMM allow photography, unfortunately, the Pepys Library's governors are not so enlightened, and will only allow copying by hand, using a pencil or computer. Thanks for the Kent link, I will check it out, as I have not seen that one before; somebody else wrote a dissertation or something similar on Matthew Baker, which is available online, without the illustrations (which is not a great deal of help!)

 

Has to be English only, or else the scope will be too large to deal with in any detail.

 

Thanks Jaager;

 

I have some of V de V elder's early works, and will use them as much as I can. The Galleon is a useful source, also, thanks for reminding me. 

 

I certainly agree with you about the lack of material; great shame that there was not a grandfather and great-grandfather V de V! Still, will keep looking. The British Library may well hold something for a start.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[trippwj]

Whilst most of these have few illustrations the narrative may be of some interest.

 

Baker, Mathew. 1586. “Fragments from English Shipwrightry by Mathew Baker Ca1586 Pepysian Library. - National Maritime Museum.” 1586. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/archive/objects/471338.html.

Battine, Edward. 1685. The Method of Building, Rigging, Apparelling, & Furnishing His Majesties Ships of Warr, According to Their Rates. http://archives.nypl.org/mss/228.

———. 1689. The Method of Building, Rigging, Apparelling, and Furnishing His Majesty’s Ships of War.

Bourne, William. 1578. Inventions or Devises : Very Necessary for All Generalles and Captaines. http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?url=%2Fmpiwg%2Fonline%2Fpermanent%2Flibrary%2FEK71UE84%2Findex.meta&viewMode=index&mode=texttool&viewLayer=extended.

———. 1601. A Regiment for the Sea. Contayning Very Necessarie Matters for All Sorts of Men and Trauailers: Whereunto Is Added an Hydrographicall Discourse Touching the Fiue Seuerall Passages into Cattay. Written by William Borne. Newly Corrected and Amended by Tho. Hood, D. in Physicke, Who Hath Added a New Regiment for the Yeare 1600, and Three Yeares Following, and a Table of Declination. Whereunto Is Also Adioyned The Mariners Guide, with a Perfect Sea Carde by the Said Thomas Hood. Printed by T. Wight. http://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3444832.

Bushnell, Edmund. 1664. The Compleat Ship-Wright Plainly and Demonstratively Teaching the Proportions Used by Experienced Ship-Wrights According to Their Custome of Building, Both Geometrically and Arithmetically Performed. Printed by W. Leybourn for George Hurlock, and are to be sold at his shop. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A30706.0001.001/1:6?rgn=div1;view=toc.

———. 1678. The Complete Ship-Wright. Plainly ... Teaching the Proportion Used by Experienced Ship-Wrights ... To Which Are Added, Certain Propositions in Geometry ... Also, a Way of Rowing of Ships by Heaving at the Capstane ... The Fourth Edition, Etc. 4th ed. R. W. for William Fisher. https://books.google.com/books?id=kWpnAAAAcAAJ.

Hardingham, John. 1706a. The Accomplish’d Ship-Wright and Marine. printed for, and sold by John Thornton, at the Pint, and Henry White, at the Three Bibles in the Minories.

———. 1706b. The Accomplish’d Ship-Wright and Mariner: London: printed for, and sold by John Thornton, at the Pint, and Henry White, at the Three Bibles in the Minories. http://estc.bl.uk/T101501.

Miller, Thomas. 1667. The Complete Modellist Shewing the True and Exact Way of Raising the Model of Any Ship Or Vessel, Small Or Great, Either in Proportion, Or Out of Proportion ... Performed by Thomas Miller. W.G. http://archive.org/details/bub_gb__FCdAgS7HUoC.

———. 1676. The Compleat Modellist Shewing the True and Exact Way of Raising the Model of Any Ship or Vessel, Small or Great, Either in Proportion or out of Proportion : Also the Manner How to Find the Length of Every Rope Exactly, and Tables Which Give the True Bigness of Every Rope in Each Vessel, Together with the Weights of Their Cables and Anchors. Early English Books Online. Printed for William Fisher ... and Eliz. Hurlock ...,. http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Rigging/Miller%281667%29.html.

[trippwj]

Here are a few more - I think it may be one of the Barker articles that you saw before. I have some of them in PDF (attached).

 

Barker, Richard. 1985. “Fragments From The Pepysian Library.” Revista Da Universidade de Coimbra XXXII: 161–78.

1985 Fragments_Barker.pdf

———. 1988. “‘Many May Peruse Us’: Ribbands, Moulds and Models in the Dockyards.” Revista Da Universidade de Coimbra XXXIV: 539–59.

1988 Many may peruse_Barker.pdf

———. 1994. “A Manuscript on Shipbuilding, Circa 1600, Copied by Newton.” The Mariner’s Mirror 80 (1): 16–29. https://doi.org/10.1080/00253359.1994.10656481.

———. 2003. “‘Cradles of Navigation’ Re-Visited.” In Shipbuilding Practice and Ship Design Methods from the Renaissance to the 18th Century: A Workshop Report, Preprint 245, 103–63. [Berlin]: Max-Planck-Institut für Wissenschaftsgeschichte. https://www.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/Preprints/P245.PDF.

[Mark P]

Good Evening Wayne;

 

Thanks for posting these; and taking the trouble to add so many links. There is some good and interesting stuff here; some of which I have already, but some not. I will check the links for those I don't have. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[trippwj]

1 hour ago, Mark P said:

Good Evening Wayne;

 

Thanks for posting these; and taking the trouble to add so many links. There is some good and interesting stuff here; some of which I have already, but some not. I will check the links for those I don't have. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

My pleasure. Locating and collecting digital resources has become a very enjoyable hobby for me.  Books, too, though the expense there limits me somewhat ( about 400 at last count).

 

If you ever see something that may be of interest let me know and I'll see if I have it.

 

[druxey]

Thanks, Wayne! Those two PDF's are very interesting - at least, to me!

[Mark P]

Good Morning Wayne;

 

Thank you for your offer; If I find something and have trouble locating a copy I will let you know.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Ian Barefoot]

Hi Mark,

 

You may be aware of these but...

 

Having just bought them I can recommend Ricjard Ensors books ' The Restoration Navy'  and 'The Master Shipwrights Secrets'.  Both are lavishly illustrated both with images from the period and Ensor's own artwork.  'The Restoration Navy' covers the early part of Charles II's reign and (along with Samuel Pepys) the recreation of the Royal Navy following the 'commonwealth' period. In particular it describes in details the building of HMS Lenox (now the subject of a recreation in Deptford where it was built (Google 'The Lenox Project'.) As far as I'm aware it's only available in hardbound - about £40:00

 

The 'Master Shipwrights Secrets' features the working of the Deptford dockyard during the 17th-18th centuries and, in addition to a lot of historical information covers the build, rebuild and total reconstruction of HMS Tyger.  The book is a mine of information about the work of the Navy Board, the Dockyard and the shipwrights who worked therin.  It's available on 'Kindle'.

 

Thev17th-early 18th century is a fascinating but little-known period of English Naval construction - but it fasciates me!  I also have a personal connection as one of my ancestors was a Bristol shipwright who, in the early 18thC left Bristol to work at Deptford.  With the opening of the Woolwhich Ship yard in mid-century he transferred there. Since then until the 1960's there were always family members who worked there.  I was the one that 'broke the mould' - but I hope I've made up for it by becoming (in later life by becoming a nautical archaeologist!

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Cirdan]

There is one more interesting article by Richard Barker:

 

'A Galleon in fragments', in Model Shipwright 37 (1981), p. 44-52. He examines the famous Folio 115 (the 4 masted Galleon) of the 'Fragments'. Hidden ("occult") lines (breadth and depth) are visible in the original, which cannot be seen on any photograph or copy and which allow the size of the ship to be determined. I have a PDF version of it, but I'm afraid to attach it here because of the copyright. 

[Roger Pellett]

Last winter, I was inspired by Frank Fox’s book about the Four Days Battle and Richard Endsor’s recent books to see if I could reconstruct one of the small English ketches that accompanied the fleet.  I used principal dimensions  published for the ketch Roe and fractional dimensions for various whole moulding radii published by Endsor.

 

The results  are posted below.  As for a model, at the moment I am encouraged to make progress on my on and off again Benjamin Noble Lake Freighter Model. If I get bogged down, maybe I’ll model the ketch.  Comments and criticism are encouraged.

 

Roger

 

[Mark P]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses and help;

 

Ian, thanks for the book suggestions; I have both of Richard's books (there is also one called The Warship Anne which is worth getting) and agree with you entirely about their value and level of information. Re the ancestral shipwright, was his name by any chance Baylie/Bayley, or was he related to such a person. I carried out a quite in-depth study of a Bristol shipwright called Francis Baylie, who built six ships for the Navy in the mid seventeenth century's Interregnum and Restoration periods. I intend to write an article about him one day, if I ever get time.  

 

Cirdan (is your address 'The Havens' by any chance? Hope I am correct in the origin of your forum name!) Thank you for your reference. I have most of Richard's warship-related works, but not this one. I will ask him if he can send me a copy, assuming he is the copyright holder. I also have the full set of Model Shipwright, and will look out the article you mention, which sounds very interesting. 

 

Roger, that is a very accomplished looking drawing. I will let Richard know that you have used his book to reconstruct a draught with the methods given therein. I'm sure he will be very pleased to hear that someone has taken his work so much to heart. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Cirdan]

 

2 hours ago, Mark P said:

I have most of Richard's warship-related works, but not this one. I will ask him if he can send me a copy

 

If everything fails, feel free to send me a pm. My forum name refers to Tolkien's "Cirdan the shipwright". He does not appear in the Lord of the Rings, but in the Silmarillion.

 

Greetings, Hartmut

[Louie da fly]

Actually, doesn't he appear at the very end of the Lord of the Rings - when Frodo goes to the Grey Havens?

 

Steven 

[druxey]

Roger: your draught is interesting. What reference do you have for the recurve of the upper stem?

[Roger Pellett]

David,

 

First of all I should add that I also referred to Ian McLaughlan’s excellent book, The Sloop of War.  In it he discusses these ketches and includes Van DeVelde paintings and sketches of them as well as drawings of his own.

 

The Charnock Bomb ketch as well as the now lost bomb ketch model both thought to be Late Seventeenth Century both show recurved stems.  The Hoy Lion, draught, Early Eighteenth Century shows this as well.

 

The recurve of the stem rabbit is a consequence of the tumblehome hull form.  Since in these small vessels, the tumblehome is carried to the bow the rabbit must recurve.

 

I may have exaggerated this.  It would be possible to leave the recurved rabbit line as is but to make the upper stem piece gradually wider as it gets higher so that it is more upright.

 

Roger

[bruce d]

Hello Mark,

A little past your date range, but this is such a nicely detailed plan I thought it worth posting:

 

Here is the direct link to the Dansk page, it is A681, HMS Cornwall, a third rate of 1692:

https://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=39521481

 

HTH

Bruce

[allanyed]

Bruce,  Thank you for posting the drawing.  Can you or anyone tell me what all of the sets of squares are?  Thank you!

Allan

[Waldemar]

Gratings turned around by 90 degrees?

[bruce d]

Allan, I wish I knew. When I posted it I was hoping someone would know. Trying to figure it out, I got no further than noting that all of the squared-off areas are below-decks which indicates that they are possibly structural. One potential clue is around the capstans: the squares appear to be continuous and behind the forward capstans, indicating they represent something on the outside structure (furthest away from us in our point of view) and are drawn over the lower aft capstan, indicating it is nearer than the capstan. Also, they overlap the gunports and other features. I am sure someone knows, let's hope they are reading this!

BTW, have you noticed some of the notes within the plan are upside down?

 

As I am writing, it occurs to me that someone with the detailed history of the ship could comment on previous damage, perhaps indicating areas of major repairs?

 

[Waldemar]

.

These are gratings (actually right half of them), turned 90 degrees around its symmetry axis.

 

[druxey]

I agree with Waldemar: the (half) plan view is superimposed on the profile drawing!

[bruce d]

Really?! I dismissed that idea, will look again.

Thanks 

[Mark P]

Good Evening Gentlemen;

 

Thank you Cirdan for the confirmation. That was where I thought you had probably taken it from. Thank you also for your offer; I may take you up on it. 

 

Roger, thanks also for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Such recurved stems are a very marked feature of smaller Dutch vessels, where the terminal part of the stem is much wider fore and aft, and is pierced with a number of holes to which the forestay is made fast (or is it the mainstay?)

 

The sets of square holes in Bruce's plan are most certainly a half plan view of the gratings. Such long ones are a characteristic of warships in the later 17th century, and probably earlier. Their purpose is mentioned in many contracts, and is to 'vent the smoake of the ordnance'. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[bruce d]

Hello Mark.

From The Magazine of Art, 1890:

 

 

No further information about the vessel. The text states "The Fishmongers’ Company is in possession of the original series of drawings in which are set forth the several pageants prepared in 1616 for the inauguration of John Lemon, who was knighted during his year of office." and this image is from that series of drawings.

Not exactly naval but the Fishmongers Company collection may hold other items of interest.

https://fishmongers.org.uk/collection/

 

HTH

Bruce

Edited August 9, 2021 by bruce d

[druxey]

What a fun float for a pageant! Juggling fish as well.

[Baker]

Also interesting

 

http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/2290

 

THE EVOLUTION OF DECORATIVE WORK ON
ENGLISH MEN-OF-WAR FROM THE 16th TO THE 19th CENTURIES

Steere-MA2004 versiering.pdf

[bruce d]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

What a fun float for a pageant! Juggling fish as well.

.

It looks like a shop window for a ship decorator 😁

I wonder how much their catch was improved by that carved rudder?