Boats on spare spars : how it was?

[greenstone]

Good afternoon, dear colleagues.

There are many models in NMM, which show that the boat stands on the topmaps and is secured with ropes.

Several books have brief information on this, which is based on the same models from the museum, I think so.

 

Interested in more detailed information on how the boat was attached to the topmaps in the 18th century?

Is there a book of the 18th century (original source) about this method?

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by greenstone

[allanyed]

Greenstone  

 

Kudos to you for doing so much research on this subject but it is good to see all the copyrighted material originally posted has been removed.   Based on the previously unedited post you have looked at Mays, Lavery and other sources and have come to the same conclusion as most of us.  There seems to be is no clear contemporary information on stowage of ships boats when there is more than one, which would always have been the case on the actual ship in the 17th-19th century British sailing ships.   One of the items you did post earlier showed and stated that the boats were nested.   Can you tell us this source?   As Lavery points out in The Arming and Fitting,  that would be impossible as the boats always had at least some thwarts that were fixed in place and kneed so it would be impossible to nest them.

 

I am once again in a situation where I could use some contemporary information on how to stow two or more boats on a deck of ships with fewer than 40 guns.

 

FYI, the photo from the W.E. Mays book that you  show in your edited post is no longer available on the RMG site from what I could find, but there are better photos, in color, of this same vessel on their site that might help.   The ones on the website are the normal low res but there may be good information to be seen on the high resolution versions of these nine photos.    https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66189

 

Thanks for bringing up this subject!!

 

Allan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[greenstone]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

   One of the items you did post earlier showed and stated that the boats were nested.   Can you tell us this source?   As Lavery points out in The Arming and Fitting,  that would be impossible as the boats always had at least some thwarts that were fixed in place and kneed so it would be impossible to nest them.

 

Hello, Allan!

 

This source is "Seamanship in the Age of Sail  An Account of the Shiphandling of the Sailing Man-Of-War, 1600-1860" by John Harland

As far as I know, it was a common practice when one boat was placed in another.

I have seen drawings in the archive and met a description in the literature.

 

 

I think the models in NMM showed only one boat on top of two topmast for simplification. 

There was always a lot of reserve spars on the ship (topmasts, topgallant masts, yards,  topsail yards).

And smaller boats (cutter and yawls) would also be put on them as Marquardt showed according to Captain Cook's description.

The source is "Anatomy of the Ship: Captain Cook's ENDEAVOUR" by Karl Heinz Marquardt.

 

But they didn't show so much on the models. I think so.

I continue to look for a reliable source from the 18th century, where we can read about this in detail.

 

Eugen,

"Master Korabel"

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by greenstone
adding

[mtaylor]

I think for "nesting" they used a cradle (one piece forward and one aft) in the larger boat and the smaller sat on top of it.  I'll have to do some digging in  my library to find out where I read tha.

[Roger Pellett]

Specifications for Mid Nineteenth US Navy launches and cutters are quite specific in requiring that all thwarts be removable to allow nesting of smaller boats.  Photos of these boats show that stern sheets and bottom boards were also fitted with removable “boat shaped” inserts to further allow nesting.

 

The ends of the thwarts were reinforced with iron plates and iron pins slipped through drilled holes into metal flanges fastened to the clamps when the thwarts were put in place.

 

For example see:  The Kedge Anchor, William Brady, 1849, Article No. 519

 

Roger

 

[allanyed]

Roger,  Sounds like the US figured it out, albeit the next century😀.   Eugen is specific about the RN in the 18th century and unfortunately  the boats could not be nested as at least some thwarts were no removable. 

 

Eugen,

 

Mays and Lavery go into theory on how the boats were stowed before the advent of cross beams on ships of 40 guns and larger about 1750 .  They seem to agree that there is no contemporary information that they could find on how the boats were stowed  prior to about 1750 on any size vessel or ships smaller than 40 guns even after 1750.   Interference with the capstan operation, gun operation, and hatches are all taken into account in the theorizing.  Stacking seems to be the consensus, but based only on it being a less troublesome method than any other.  Perhaps Harland was using the term "nesting" loosely and really meant stacking.   

 

I did a bit more searching on the new RMG site with no success so far.  Has anyone noticed the "Collections" system has had a major change?  I am not sure I like the new system or old system better.  The pictures on the new site seem to be as clear even though low resolution, and  can be made larger than the old system without downloading so I am not sure if I like the old search system or new one better.   (I find change in general annoying as I get older🙃)

 

I really hope some solid contemporary information will be brought forward here.

 

Allan

 

 

[greenstone]

Good afternoon, colleagues!

I think that the boat was put inside another boat when everything was cleaned inside.

 

Here is an example.. but a different age

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-86757

 

It remains to find proof that this was done in the 18th century.

Edited September 19, 2021 by greenstone

[allanyed]

Eugen,

Yes, that looks like how the US did it per the note from Roger above, but in the 18th century, some of the thwarts were fixed with knees so this nesting would not work.  MAYBE one smaller boat could have been stowed upside down on top of a larger boat, but when there were three or more boats, this would not work.   Nesting definitely would be a sensible solution IF the thwarts were removable, but they were not in the earlier years.    Looking at paintings by Van de Velde, et al,  I could not find any answers at all.  Not one model in Anderson's Navy Board Ship Models has a ship's boat so no answers there either.  Looking at photos of models at Preble Hall, same situation, no ship's boats on the models for which I have photos.    

 

Gallows would work for one boat but not two or more.   Even with this, many of the contemporary models do not even show gallows on which a boat could be stowed so it did not interfere with the capstan.  

 

The more I research this, this more I wonder how this was done on the ships under 40 guns and all ships prior to about 1750 when there were not gangways and cross beams.

 

Oh to have a Way Back machine for a few days........  

 

Allan  

[Ian B]

I'm building The Vanguard  and was thinking about adding 'spare spars and mast parts on deck just to add yet more detail/clutter  ---- so any pictures I can reference would be fab..

[allanyed]

Ian

Eugen is looking for information on stowing boats rather than spars which would likely have been laid on the cross beams along with the boats on a 74 of 1787.    As to photographs or other contemporary information, if you find any, that would be an interesting subject to start.    I found two photos of contemporary models in the Rogers collection at Preble Hall that follow.   Not sure these are contemporary pieces or if they were added to the models at some later date.

Allan

 

 

[Ian B]

Thanks, I think I will start a new thread.

 

 

[allanyed]

Hi Ian,

I recall seeing something along these lines on a thread a few weeks ago here at MSW.  Not sure it was ever resolved. Opinions regarding storing these pieces on the decks, cross beams and even on the channels were proposed.   

 

Allan

[druxey]

It certainly was usual to store spare spars (often topmasts) on the skid beams in the waist as seen in your photographs, so these were most likely contemporary with the models themselves. Other contemporary models show at least one boat stowed on the spare spars, but exactly how they were secured I'm unsure. 

[greenstone]

The "snow-brig".

18 century.

The boats were nested.

 

Eugen

"Master Korabel"

Edited September 22, 2021 by greenstone

[druxey]

Can you tell us the source of your image, please, greenstone?

[greenstone]

Good afternoon.

I don't remember the exact name of this file, but I found it in a Swedish museum.

https://digitaltmuseum.se/owners/S-SMM-SM

 

Eugen

"Master Korabel"

[greenstone]

But returning to the question raised.

This drawing from 1759 perfectly shows two boats.

One is on the deck (only fragments are visible) and the second boat from above is located on the topmasts.

It is very well shown how exactly the boat is attached.

 

Deutsch_ Frederik den Femtes Atlas

Segelplan, Seitenansicht Fregatte Sjöridderen

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Soeridderen.jpg

 

[greenstone]

 

Fragment of an Austrian merchant ship at the end of the 18th century

 

"Launch of Victoria in Le Havre in 1782, France, 18th Century"

The boats were nested.

 

http://westernworld.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/479656817.jpg

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by greenstone

[greenstone]

Unknown artist
Brig or snow Minerva, 1810
Watercolor, 12  x 16 inches
Gift of John W. Teele (70.13)

Maine Maritime Museum

https://www.incollect.com/sites/uploads/00220.jpg

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by greenstone

[greenstone]

ca. 1780

boat  on the topmasts