Rope sizes for Gun tackle and steering.

[DaveBaxt]

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum and should be in another. Also apologies is this has been asked a few times but I am unable to find anything when doing a search. I have a number of books non of which have given me the information including Less, RC Anderson, and Monfield allof which give the sizes of rope for rigging. So where do I look. Which books would give me this information? Hopefully there is also an online resource that I could maybe use, however if it  in another book I need to buy, so be it.

               Are there any calculation that are easy to work out based gun sizes and ship size/ rudder size or something which is available or is this information available in AOTS Endeavor which is the vessel I am building but would probably not help me in the future. Best regards Dave

Edited December 13, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

I have found something under Rudder pendants in Lees book for Micellaneous rope sizes page 188 sizes  compared to the main stay I have also found rope sizes for gun tackle  for 5th and 6th rate ships. How can I use this information for the Endeavour as I believe she was not rated, but could be wrong. Best regards Dave

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

Dave,

What were the gun sizes?  If you have the weight of shot and barrel length, that may be enough information to find rope sizes, more so than the rate of the ship.  Look up the gun sizes of 5th and 6th rate ships around the time of Endeavour and if they are the same as what Endeavour carried, you are in luck.

 

Are you looking for the breeching, running out, and/or  training tackle?  There is also the muzzle lashing but I cannot recall ever seeing these on a model.

 

Taking a look in Caruana's History of British Sea Ordnance Volume II, he gives information on diameter and length of the breeching rope for various calibers and barrel lengths,  but I could not find the running out or training tackle sizes.  The muzzle lashings were 2" diameter for all sizes according to Caruana. 

 

Lees is always a good source on most any type of rigging within the confines of time he covers.   Anderson is good between 1600 and 1720 so not appropriate for Endeavour anyway.

 

Allan

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

28 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

What were the gun sizes?  If you have the weight of shot and barrel length, that may be enough information to find rope sizes, more so than the rate of the ship.  Look up the gun sizes of 5th and 6th rate ships around the time of Endeavour and if they are the same as what Endeavour carried, you are in luck.

 

Are you looking for the breeching, running out, and/or  training tackle?  There is also the muzzle lashing but I cannot recall ever seeing these on a model.

 

Taking a look in Caruana's History of British Sea Ordnance Volume II, he gives information on diameter and length of the breeching rope for various calibers and barrel lengths,  but I could not find the running out or training tackle sizes.  The muzzle lashings were 2" diameter for all sizes according to Caruana. 

 

Lees is always a good source on most any type of rigging within the confines of time he covers.   Anderson is good between 1600 and 1720 so not appropriate for Endeavour anyway.

 

Allan

 

 

Thank you once again Allan for your quick response.I now have more information from lees book and they do give sizes of ropes in relation to the sizes of main stays. However the main stays are proportionate to their masts. ie the lower main stay is 0.5 of the mast.  page number 185 What I don,t understand is that the model mast is 10mm  in diameter so that makes the main stay  5mm and the Tiller rope 0.25mm (page number 188) and the rudder pendent  0.4 and rudder pendent falls 0.2. Again these are all in proportion to the main stay and does not make any sense to me. I also don,t know what the rudder pendent falls are. I am assuming the rudder pendent is what are attached to the blocks on which the tiller rope goes through and the tiller rope is what goes around the wheel drum.

 

         Gun tackles are also given but again all is in proportion to the main stay for 5th and 6th rate ships. larger ships give an exact size of 2.5 inches. Brea ch ropes 0.5 of the bore of thegun Muzzle lashing usually 2" Entering ropes 0.125 but not sure what this means Is it 0.125 of the bore or the main stay. All very confusing . Perhaps it is me reading this wrong if you know what I mean.Best regards Dave

Edited December 13, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[Lieste]

Rope sizes are circumference, masts are diameters.

A 19" spar is 3 times the diameter of a 20" cable.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lieste

[DaveBaxt]

yeah that would work out. Thank you for your input. Best regards dave

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

What were the gun sizes?  If you have the weight of shot and barrel length, that may be enough information to find rope sizes, more so than the rate of the ship.  Look up the gun sizes of 5th and 6th rate ships around the time of Endeavour and if they are the same as what Endeavour carried, you are in luck.

 

Are you looking for the breeching, running out, and/or  training tackle?  There is also the muzzle lashing but I cannot recall ever seeing these on a model.

 

Taking a look in Caruana's History of British Sea Ordnance Volume II, he gives information on diameter and length of the breeching rope for various calibers and barrel lengths,  but I could not find the running out or training tackle sizes.  The muzzle lashings were 2" diameter for all sizes according to Caruana. 

 

Lees is always a good source on most any type of rigging within the confines of time he covers.   Anderson is good between 1600 and 1720 so not appropriate for Endeavour anyway.

 

Allan

 

 

Allan The only information I have at hand is that the Endeavour was fitted with 6 x 4!b guns the bore or length I do not know. Accordeing to Lees the \Breaching rope is 0.95 of the bore again think this will be circumference rather than diameter. Also I do not know what size guns are fitted on 5th and 6th rated ships and where to get this information from. The  other gun tackle in Leess for 5th and 6th rated ships is a fixed size of 2" . The Entering ropes are 0.125 which I think is again related to the Mainstay but not sure if this is the tackle for drawing the guns back into the ship. So unfortunately at the moment I am still at a loss and unsure of where to look. Best regards Dave

[Gregory]

While I respect the idea of checking the tables, standards, establishments and such, this is a time when you might think about " What looks good ? "

 

We should have lots of good( and bad) examples in our build logs..

 

Here is a great example from archjofo's La Creole

 

 

Let archjofo know if his ropes do not conform to the establishments..😁

[allanyed]

Dave,

The bore for a four pounder Armstrong cannon of 1760  was 3.204" so the breeching rope was 3".  By about 1770 four pounders were all 5'6" to 6' long.  Their predecessor, the minion could be as much as 7 feet long. 

 

I found similar information on the running tackle that you posted in Lavery's Arming and Fitting  which indicates the running tackle is   2" except for the 24  pounders and larger which was 2.5"

 

Allan

Edited December 13, 2021 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

20 minutes ago, Gregory said:

While I respect the idea of checking the tables, standards, establishments and such, this is a time when you might think about " What looks good ? "

 

We should have lots of good( and bad) examples in our build logs..

 

Here is a great example from archjofo's La Creole

 

 

Let archjofo know if his ropes do not conform to the establishments..😁

Thakn you Gregory for your input and what seems to me to be a sensible approach .

[DaveBaxt]

8 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

The bore for a four pounder Armstrong cannon of 1760  was 3.204" so the breeching rope was 3".  By about 1770 four pounders were all 5'6" to 6' long.  Their predecessor, the 4 minion could be as much as 7 feet long. 

 

I found in Lavery's Arming and Fitting  that the running tackle is almost always 2" except for the 24 and 32 pounders which was 2.5"

 

Allan

Thank you again Allan for what has given me something I can now work with and progress. Best regards Dave

[BANYAN]

Dave, Allan et al - not sure if you are aware of the 'The Sea Gunners Vade Mecum' by Robert Simmons (1812)?  The following is from that reference and I think it is a downloadable pdf (digitised by Google).

 

cheers

 

Pat

[allanyed]

Thanks Pat!!!

Yes I do have this and for the early 19th century I have found both Steel and the Vade Mecum to be extremely useful.  

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Dave, Allan et al - not sure if you are aware of the 'The Sea Gunners Vade Mecum' by Robert Simmons (1812)?  The following is from that reference and I think it is a downloadable pdf (digitised by Google).

 

cheers

 

Pat

No I have not seen this before so thank you for that. Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

Dave, If you have not yet found this, https://books.google.com/books?id=aztFAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false  

Just remember it is from 1812 so may not always fit for 18th century.   Steel's Elements and Practice of Rigging (1794) is another free source for very late 18th and  early 19th century,  https://maritime.org/doc/steel/   

 

Allan

[LyleK1]

Really good info...

And I wasn't even looking for this... yet!

[DaveBaxt]

21 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave, If you have not yet found this, https://books.google.com/books?id=aztFAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false  

Just remember it is from 1812 so may not always fit for 18th century.   Steel's Elements and Practice of Rigging (1794) is another free source for very late 18th and  early 19th century,  https://maritime.org/doc/steel/   

 

Allan

Something else to add to my Library . Thank you again Allan