Accurate copper plating

[allanyed]

Who makes realistic copper plate material for ship bottoms for commonly used scales?  Based on the build logs here at MSW, so far,  I cannot find any kit manufacturer that supplies realistic plates.   The plates are usually too large in general and always appear to have bumps that represent rivets or bolts which were never actually used. 

 

From a bit of research it appears, for British ships at least, the full plates were a nominal 48" X 15" and overlapped 1 1/2"  so the 1/4" nails, (not rivets or bolts,) were hammered through two plates where they overlapped, both horizontally and vertically.  The head of the nail was about 1/2" and the hammering would result in small indentations, not raised bumps, too small to see on scales smaller than 1:48 and even at 1:48 would only be about 0.01 in diameter.   There were typically 16 nails in the long sides and 4 or 5 on the short sides.    It seems plain copper plates with no nails would be a better way to go.   Any information on realistic materials would be appreciated.  The above information is from Goodwin's Construction and Fitting of English Ships of War, pp 226-7

Allan

Edited December 30, 2021 by allanyed

[druxey]

The plates were also nailed in a diagonal pattern inside the perimeter nails. All were virtually invisible:

 

[markjay]

I think Caldercraft sells a 1/64 scale copper plate that is etched (no dimples) in sheet form. You may also want to check out Bluejacket.

[allanyed]

Thanks Druxey, I had no idea about the diagonal pattern.

Mark, thank you as well.  Actually I have no need on my current project, but was more interested in seeing if there was a source for those building models that would have plating (circa 1778 and beyond) as the plating that comes with the kits that I have seen in photos and in person are so unrealistic as to ruin an otherwise beautiful piece of work.  I realize it is "to each his own" in the end, but some folks might be interested to know there are alternatives, so thanks again for your lead.  I did look up Caldercraft/Jokita  and Blue Jacket and I am sorry to say their plating is pretty far off the mark.   Below is what Caldercraft/Jokita shows on their website and then I manipulated their plates to show what it would look like if properly overlapped.  On the sketch  I included the diagonal row of nails mentioned by Druxey and hope  I got it right.  The full jumble of rivets all over the plates on both the Jokita and Bluejacket plates probably never was actually done.

Allan

 

[druxey]

Sorry, Allan: the diagonal rows of nails at a few inch intervals go in both directions to form diamond shaped patterns. For model work, this is only academic! For instance, see:

 

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/11/18/new-copper-sheathing-2/

 

[AJohnson]

Although I have not seen them in person I think the Amati and Vanguard copper plates have a far more refined appearance than the Caldercraft “dimples” which I have used and won’t be using again.

 

Hopefully someone on MSW has samples of them to show compared to other makes mentioned.

[ah100m]

Baremetal foil is available in copper.  Very thin, adhesive backed but you'll need to cut individual plates or score larger strips.

[Gregory]

Copper foil tape is available in 1/4 - 1.5 inch diameters.

 

Those who are so inclined, can adjust the size..

[ah100m]

The tape may be useful for larger scales.  According to one of the answers on Amazon it measures 0.08 inches thick which is almost 4 inches in 1/48 scale and almost eight(!) inches in 1/96 scale.  More like armor.  (Maybe buy a roll and measure it yourself). 

[allanyed]

Gregory,

 

The 1" wide tape would be perfect for 1:48 when cut into pieces 0.312" wide, but I wonder about the thickness which should be only about 0.002.  I think the thickness, if not too much like armor as mentioned above, would not be as noticeable as the length and width and with the foil, the nail holes can be pricked if desired, or better left off altogether.

 

Thanks for the update Druxey, much appreciated.

 

Allan

[Gregory]

How relevant is the thickness if you don't overlap?

 

The overlap is not apparent in the images of the Cutty Sark and Constitution presented earlier..

 

Plus, there are various thicknesses available.   I saw one that was .025mm.

 

It doesn't appear to be listed in the specs, but if you ask, you will get a good answer from the seller/manufacturer..

Edited December 30, 2021 by Gregory

[allanyed]

Hi Gregory,

The overlap is detailed in Goodwin's research and is pretty clear in the Connie plating photo below.  I know it is not good to say " always" , so maybe some shipwrights did not over lap them.  If the Connie plates did not overlap there would have to be twin rows of nails on the  edges but there is only a single row all around as the nails go through both plates at the overlap.  Happy New Year to you and yours!

Allan

 

[Gregory]

I wasn't suggesting the overlap was not used, in fact, it would seem to be essential, similar to the principals in laying shingles..

 

I was just questioning the usefulness/ appearance or lack thereof, when modeling..

[allanyed]

Gregory,  Honestly, without seeing a model up front and personal with the plating, I am not sure one way or the other would look better or worse.  Another good reason for POF and leaving off the planking below the waterline as was so often done on contemporary models 😀

Allan

 

[druxey]

Another 'cheat' would be to show the ship 'as launched'. The coppering was done after the ship was checked for leaks and then dry docked.

[Gregory]

I see coppering as a personal preference as to how you want the model to appear..

 

How many people outside of our community are going to look at a coppered model and say " Oh, those copper  plates are too thick and out of scale.. " ?

 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

   The build log for Glory of the Seas (a long log indeed) has a section on a cool way to use copper tape - first passing it through a embossing process using an old-fashioned clothes wringer.  Rob's log of Great Republic also goes into this method.  Wringers may still be marked to the Amish.

[georgeband]

I have recently completed coppering Whiting in 1/64 using the etched plates from Amati. These plates have a full nail pattern along two edges, one long and one short, and the other edges are blank. A few more nails adorn the middle of the plates. I trimmed back the blank edges to achieve close fits against the adjoining 'nailed' edges: this simulates the overlap and removes any problems of over-thick plates. (True thickness was about 0.8mm.) The plates come in port and starboard flavours. 

 

The hull is upside down here and shows the plates just below the waterline

 

When the plating was finished I rubbed down the surface with grade 0000 steel wool and applied Renaissance Wax to protect it from the sweat on my fingers. At normal viewing distances the nail patterns are quite subtle and show that there was something there. Full details are on my build log. 

 

George

 

[Gregory]

You did a great job with what the kit provided.. 

 

What is the actual size of those plates?

[allanyed]

I apologize for beating a dead horse, but to me the Amati plating is another example of a kit material in which little research was done by the kit manufacturer.   Assuming the plates are scale 48" long the nail dents are 1.5" in diameter where as they would actually be 0.5" thus basically invisible to the casual observer.   As others have commented, at this small scale maybe these nail patterns are best left off altogether.  I see how the roller idea  could work if making sure the pin pricks are sufficiently small and accurately spaced.    Thanks to everyone for their input, it is greatly appreciated.  

Allan

 

[georgeband]

Gregory,

The Amati plates are 18.2mm long and 6.2mm wide (I leave it to you to convert these dimensions into inches...). I bought one pack and have 80 whole plates and a lot of trimmings left over. 

 

Allan,

The debate about copper plates and nail patterns is similar to those about sails and ropes and wood grain. It is very difficult to get to a true scale size on a 1/64 model and the best we can achieve is to get something that looks right to our eyes. The complication is that my interpretation of 'right' will not be the same as what others think and it is hard to set an absolute standard.

Let's take an example of the nail indentations in the main body of a plate. These are too small to be seen individually on many photographs but their regular patterns are picked up by our eyes which are good at that task. Your Connie photo above is a case in point and I can readily identify rows where individual nails are lost in the noise. I expect to see something on a model that reminds me of the nail pattern (personal preference, others hold different views) but the existing technology struggles to achieve that. Caldercraft's soup bowls are excessive, a plain copper sheet misses the point, and Amati are somewhere in between. Yes, the Amati marks are too big at scale but I would rather have something than nothing and at this point in life I do not want to start designing and making my own etched plates with smaller dots. Amati have made a compromise that suits me, and I do like the way their plates have blank edges to simulate overlaps. It does not suit everyone and I respect your opinions. 

 

A factual note, returning to the original theme of this thread. Vanguard Models make etched copper plates in 1/64 and have nail marks similar to those on Amati. Unfortunately, the dense nail pattern at the edges is on all the edges so it is not possible to butt them against each other to simulate overlapping. You have to either overlap them physically, which leaves a gross step, or cut off two edges from each plate which makes them too small and is tedious. That is why I chose Amati instead of Vanguard. 

 

(Btw flogging a dead donkey is an alternative to beating a dead horse. I find both acceptable as metaphors but would not indulge in them in real life.)

 

Best wishes,

 

George