US Brig Syren by rtropp - Model Shipways - 1:64

[aliluke]

Hi Richard

I've turned to just wetting and bending. I only lightly clamp the plank to a former - a glass or other round thing and then just press the plank into shape between my thumb and forefinger after that, while it is still slightly wet. It may be that the kit wood - lime -  I'm using makes it is easy to do this way but with gentle persuasion it takes on any shape I want as long as it is a bit wet. Nipping kind of kills the wood fibres and that is very hard to undo. But it still works and many here use it while others deride it - whatever flies your kite, I still say. Nipping sure makes it quicker but, as before, don't let it thin the planks too much.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[fnkershner]

Richard - Remember 1 rule of Planking - Your tapered plank should never be narrower that 1/2 the width of the original plank. Also when tapering you want to taper the side of the plank that will adhere to the previous plank.ie if you are working from the wale down you need to taper the top of the plank. The reason for this is the result leaves you with a perfect straight edge for your next plank. I wouldn't worry to much about your planking most of it will be covered by your copper plates.

 

But this is a great time to learn.

 

On the subject of spiling - If it is the first layer of planking I would never bother. it is a pain. but if it is the 2nd layer (which thankfully Chuck did not design into this kit) you will have to consider it. I am running into this with my Harvey.

[rtropp]

thanks for the tips

 

Thomas,

The measurements per Chuck's instruction article helps me understand how much the planks need to be adjusted. That said I have begun, as you mentioned, adjusting by eye with the marks helping me gauge how much to thin. I am already thinking about the next model which may have a "wood" look throughout rather than paint and copper. This build, with coppering and paint, should allow me to develop the skill without worrying too much about mistakes.

 

Alistair,

I had not thought about the potential damage. I do see some splitting at the nibbling but it doesn't show on the "view side" of the plank. But... I do not want problems later. So, I have retried the wetting and bending but with a simpler process. I have a small cup of water and I dampen the strake with wet fingers where it has the most severe bending (not really going through a soak.) Then mount it on the hull to dry to shape. If I am not getting the curve I want, I will then nibble just a bit to form it as needed. This seems to work on the Syren shape and goes pretty quickly. As I mentioned above, I am considering more of a wood look for my next kit so one of the things I am gauging is how much damage the wood takes with the various approaches.

 

Floyd,

Thanks for the reminder about not going beyond half the size of the plank when shaping. Right now I am thinning on the bow to about 3/32. This fits the half size rule. The aft end of the plank is still the full 1/8 and seems to be fitting.

As I move down towards the keel I will see what I run into.

 

 

All in all, the planking is holding my interest more than I thought it would. While one plank is drying to shape on the bow, I am cutting the next one. Since I am not doing a soak, the plank is drying pretty quickly. I am using plank clamps made from bulldog clamps. I was worried about leaving marks, but I do not see anything that is more than a light scratch or dent. I think they will come out when I do the finishing sanding. At least that's my hope.

 

Again,

Thanks to all for the advice. It really helps.

 

Richard T.

[Chuck]

Fantastic work so far.  Its really most important to just give it a try and stick with it.  Many dont even try to line off the hull or shape their planks.  Having tried it you are half way there.  Its now only a matter of finding those little tricks and techniques that will work best for you personally.  The principle is there and I am sure you will find your own process to do it.  Mine is just one of many.

 

I think you will have a new outlook on the planking process once this hull is planked.  You will soon be telling yourself how ludicrous it is to double plank a hull.  Why do the job twice?  If you can just take your time and do it well the first time around. 

 

Chuck

[Jason]

Hello Richard,

 

Great work on your Syren so far.  The precision of the stern framing also came back to haunt me later in the process, though it is nothing a good sanding won't address.  I also had the same problem with the dirty look of the planking where I used pencil to simulate the caulking.  I tried sanding it, but that just seemed to drive it deeper into the wood.  I think being that the basswood is very porous, the sanding process drives the graphite deep into the pores.  How I got around it, was to scrape the surface with a #18 exacto blade, the straight kind, until the wood looked clean.  I believe Chuck describes this process as well in his HMS Winchelsea build log.

 

As far as the bending of the planks, I have to agree with Alistair.  When I start to work on the ship, I will put whatever planking stock I need into a large travel mug of water before I start.  When I need a plank with a curve in it, I take one from the water and clamp it around the lid of a mason jar for about 5 minutes.  After that I find that they are very supple, and can be worked to the desired curve easily without any additional clamps.  I only wipe off the excess water, then glue to the bulkheads using CA.  The point that terminates at the most severe part of the bend is glued first, then the rest of the plank is ran down the bulkheads a couple at a time.  I should note that I only wet the portion of the plank that is to take the most severe curves, only the first 6 inches or so.  Therefore on planks that ran into the transom area, they were pieced with at least two sections, and meet in the middle of the ship somewhere.

 

As far as spiling goes, since the bottom of the Syren is coppered, it is a great place to practice different techniques. 

 

As others have stated, you need to find the process that works the best for you.  So the above is just my two cents.

 

Great job, and good luck on your Syren build!

 

--Jason

Edited September 18, 2013 by Jason

[rtropp]

Hi,

I find I am using this first kit as more of a skill building exercise. I go through a lot of wood, but I am learning a good deal.

 

For instance, I was continuing the lower hull planking on the first side using one plank strakes because, as explained in the practicum, they will be covered up by the copper plates. While this is easier and faster, I lost the opportunity to learn more about finished planking.

 

 

So I decided to do the planking on the other side with "regulation" sized plank lengths, as if it would not be covered with copper.

 

 

This is more difficult and time consuming but it will give me additional practice. And, there should be no problem with filling and sanding since it will be covered with copper.

 

I really like the texture and warmth of wood and will likely do my next kit without covering the wood, except for some highlighting like red around gun ports.

 

By the way, I was using pencil to create the caulking and really found the wood to get dirty. Not sure how well it will sand out. Are there any suggestion for how to create the caulking look without using graphite?

 

 

Thanks,

Richard T.

[Chuck]

Dont put so much pencil graphite on teh egde.  You only need a light shading.  If you want it darker......shade both edges of the joint.  I notice that folks will really make it dark and heavy....no need to do that at all.

 

Chuck

[rtropp]

Chuck,

Good tip, I will practice on the lower planking.

Thanks

Richard T.

[rtropp]

I am trying to work out what a hull planking plan would look like on the Syren. I understand that planks on a full size ship would not be less than 5 feet or greater than 25 feet.

My calculations for the Syren give me the shortest plank at one inch and the longest at 4.5 inches (both rounded out for ease). I am using that spread to figure greatest and least number of bulkheads to include in each plank.

 

If that is correct, the next step is to figure out the staggering of the plank butts. Unlike for deck planking, I do not see anything that describes best practices for staggering on the hull. Should I start at the number of bulkheads that fit 4.5 and then drop the size bulkhead by bulkhead until I reach one inch at the bow? This would give a pretty straight angle of joints. Or should they be staggered, somewhat like the plans for the deck planking show? Also, where shorter planks are necessary, should they always be used at the bow, stern, or in the middle of the strake?

 

Or am I overthinking this. I know it is not necessary to do planking this way on the Syren with its coppering but it seems to be a good opportunity to learn hull planking on a build that will cover up any mistakes.

 

Also, when I am tapering the hull planks it seems easier to taper the whole strake then cut the strake plank by plank rather than cutting each plank and then tapering to fit. The butt joints are coming out a lot closer in size.

 

I appreciate any suggestions.

 

Richard T.

[Chuck]

I would stagger them accross two bulkheads in the standard four butt shift pattern.  But dont do it at every bulkhead...stagger them at every other bulkhead so the distance between each plank butt is not too close.

 

You can see on my Winchelsea that in each new strake the butts are shifted to the next second bulkhead edge.  Rather than use the very next one...this would have made the butts to close to each other in each strake.  I hope that makes sense.

 

[rtropp]

Chuck,

 

I think I understand. I will complete four runs to see how it looks and get back to everyone.

 

Richard T.

Edited September 22, 2013 by rtropp

[rtropp]

I am up to the section where you stop laying planks and go on to the second layer of wales (just before tree holes.) I see that it shows the wale as one continuous strake. Since it is the topmost layer shouldn't it be cut into planks?

Also, since the rabbet is already used for the first layer of wales, should the second just be butted up against the bow stem?

I appreciate your input.

 

Thanks,

Richard T

[Pygothian]

Hi all,I am working steadily on the build but the updates to the log are a little behind so I will try to catch up here. Also, have family visiting from California, with small children, so will probably not have much time.The following is my build for the lower deck. I glued a few pieces together to test finishes. I used MinWax Golden Oak. I was having difficulty gluing the small planks side to side, so I used a piece of freezer paper as a base and glued some planking to it, then, after both gluing and staining, peeled the paper away. Pretty easy.syren first batch00028.jpgNext I made the lower deck full size. I found it easier to use the freezer paper as a glue and peel base rather than gluing each plank individually. I used a soft pencil for the caulking. Anything else I tried, watercolor markers, stain markers, etc., all allowed the color to spread through the wood so pencil worked best for me.lower deck.jpgNext it was time for gun and sweep sills/lintels etc.I found it really hard to cut and sand right angles. I was cutting a little large to enable fitting, but then my sanding ruined the angle. I tried two similar jigs.For cutting:cuttng jig.jpgand for sanding:sanding jig.jpgThe piece to be cut was placed along the corner where the two jig pieces meet, then cut or sanded against the edge. These worked ok, but since I used the same wood as the kit, the jigs eventually were distorted. (I should not have been surprised at that outcome!!) And since I still was lousy at cutting right angles could not just cut away to reshape edge. (Catch 22??)About this time my plastic hobby miter box arrived and that took care of the right angle cutting. Sanding was still a problem. Even with the right angle jig, the hand held sanding block was still not giving me a good right angle. So I took out the my new Dremel tool stand to see what I could cobble together.third batch stern00001.jpgthird batch stern00003.jpgYou can see the that the Dremel holder is set up side ways. This allows me to use the handle to move the sanding head forward (laterally). I am using the dremel quick release sanding head because it is smooth all the way across with no screw head protruding. I also tried the Proxxon sanding head, which I like better, but it is smaller so more difficult to use. A ruined plastic Miter box is used to hold the wood piece. After squaring everything up, all I do is put the piece against the side of the miter, move the piece a small bit so it clears the end of the plastic miter box and then use the handle on the dremel stand to move the sanding head in towards it. It is producing a nicely squared sanding that I can keep going back to until the part fits. What's nice is that this sands to a square head even if the part is not cut squarely. (I'm so proud of me!!)Also, you will notice the hose end from my shop vacuum clamped near the sander. It really works, and since I work in our sunroom, keeps everyone happy.Below is the completion of the sills.building stern frame .jpgThe bad news is that I am not really happy with the result. It is not as "faired" as I would want it to be. Part the problem is skill. Part was the need repair/replace many of the bulwarks (thin pieces at top of frames) because they were burned badly enough that the centery ply would crumble. My repair job was not... well, not great. So, the gun and sweep ports are difficult to fair. Also, the top of the lintel is not as straight horizontally across the ship as it should be, not sure how this will impact that top rail. I have tried to smooth and even out as much as I can without thinning the wood too much.After much thought, I decided not to redo the work because that would mean reworking from the beginning with the bulkhead former. Instead, I will push ahead with the planking and see how it turns out before making that decision. I also checked the other laser cut parts and, now that I know what to look for, ordered replacements for those that look bad.Next I painted the gun and sweep ports. I obtained an airbrush for another project and decided to use it when painting the kit. Lots of new experiences here.gunportpainted.jpgAnd that brings it up to date for now.I would appreciate getting your input, not just to the build itself, but whether this log is ok or if I am being too wordy!Richard

Genius. I think I will rig up my Dremel and mitre box when I need to get a nice square edge, and use the missus dyson so I don't make a mess!

[Chuck]

Yes ...just butt it against the stem.   Also,  since you will be painting the wales,  teh butt seams wont show through.  At least like I usually paint them.  That is your choice actually.  You can plank in individual segments or with one continuous strip.  It just depends on whether or not you want to paint it so the seams show through or not.  For example....see my Winchelsea model...no butt seams show up at all.  In fact,  when its all painted with the final finish you probably wont be able to even see the individual strakes.  Its just a personal preference thing.

 

Chuck

[rtropp]

Chuck,

Thanks,

Richard T

[rtropp]

Hi all,

I finally finished adding the hull planks.  I am not crazy about it but it seems ok for a first model.  The first picture is the starboard side with the "raw" planking.

You'll notice that I played with individual planks rather than just laying the strake. I tried different techniques so you will see that it is uneven but I figured since it would be covered up by the copper plates I might as well practice.  As you can see the practice was really needed.  It took a lot longer to complete the planking, but I think the knowledge picked up was worthwhile.  I plan on an all wood hull for my next attempt so this really helped me build the skill.  They say one learns from their mistakes... well, I must have learned a lot!!

 

 

The next photo is after it was filled and partially sanded.  I used 100 grit and then 220 grit.  I plan on going to 320 and 400. I suspect that I will also do a bit more filling.

 

 

 

I am looking for some advice before going further with sanding.  I sanded without any surface prep, i.e., no sanding sealer etc.

1. should sanding sealer be used before starting to sand?

2. should anything be applied between using finer grits of sandpaper?

3. should anything be used after sanding to protect the upper hull and should anything be used on the portion that will be copper plated?

 

Thanks all

Richard T

 

 

[Charley54]

Hey Richard

 

I think it looks great. Im still working on gunport framing on my Syren, trying not to think about planking yet. However, I had been considering the same questions about some kind of wood sealer to try and control the " fuzz" I seem to create when I sand. I have looked over your log ( as well as all the others) many times in my own build research and its been a great help.

 

Charley

[rtropp]

Charley,

I read about your problem with the template.  I am sure Chuck can help.  We Syren builders are pretty lucky to have him on this forum. For me, building the ports was not too bad. Of course it helped that my template was correct.  Also, there are a couple of threads where other builders show the use of wood spacers that help keep the measures correct.  That is what helped me most, I could put two spacers and fit the sill, lintels and etc. spot on.  My lack of skill showed up when cutting the planks around the ports. I am not pleased with the outcome. I saw a tool on Micro Mark that was a right angle chisel.  It might help, but the price is kind of high and I really should be able to accomplish that with a knife and sandpaper.

 

I noticed that Dirk went back in to smooth and square the ports after planking and they ended up a bit larger than called for In the plans.  His look really good so I may try his approach. I agree with him that a larger size would be less noticeable than an uneven lip around the port. After the first two sandings I should have a better idea of how they will look. 

 

Also, I need to see how the treenails come out.  I used Elmer's wood filler and right now they are pretty hard to see. Not sure I will have to rework some of those.

 

Dirk,

I like your simple approach to sanding.  Just sand and oil. Did you use the natural oil or one with a stain to it?

 

Thanks

Richard T

Edited October 28, 2013 by rtropp

[rtropp]

On a different note, I have seen where people will "like" a post. What is that for? (I don't have much experience with social media other than LinkedIn.)

 

Richard T

[augie]

I don't do social media at all Richard but have found the 'like' button useful.  As Dirk says, it gives you an opportunity to let the author know you're looking and that you 'like' what you see ....... without sending the old 'great job' comment. 

[rtropp]

^{How convenient.  I will start using the like button.  sounds easy and gets the point, thanks Dirk and Augie}

^{Richard T}

[rtropp]

I have a question about hull planking.  Is 3/16" planking within the bounds of the kit's scale for hull planking?

 

Thanks

Richard T

[fnkershner]

Lets see 3 X 64 / 16 = real size in inches of the plank. What do you think?

[rtropp]

Hmmm... gonna make me work for I huh? 

3*(64/16) or is it 3*64

                            16

Either way it seems to work out the same.

 

64/16=4

3*4=12 inches.

According to zu Mondfeld's book, Historic Ship Models, Up to the end of the 17th century planks varied between 18ins and 13ins. In the 18th century from 14ins to 11ins and in the 19th century averaged 12 ins. (Guess they were cutting down trees quicker than they could grow.)

Then he also adds that the thickness of the strakes could vary from 3-4 inches at the bilges to 6 inches on either side of the wales.

 

So, 12 ins should be right on target.

 

When I try the same with the ME supplied 1/8 inch wood I get:

1*(64/8)= 8 inches.  Based on zu Mondfeld, this would seem to be on the smallish side.

 

Now, this is all predicated on my using your formula correctly.  Hey... I was a Liberal Arts major

 

Richard T.

[fnkershner]

Well I will confess I was first a math major then Computer Science. But you managed!  Of course this assumes that the scale of the model is 1:64. Also the formula is the same either way. It does not matter if you multiply or divide first. And the Liberal arts education did come into good use here. You still had to do the research to see if 12" was proper.

 

Are you planning on changing the supplied planking for a different size?

[rtropp]

Floyd.

A math major huh.... well, I won't hold it against you    In fact, I greatly appreciate your helping me with the formula.  I am having a little difficulty translating scale to working measurements.  

 

Yes, I am considering 3/16" vs. 1/8" plank widths.  As I read zu Mondfeld, it sounded like 3/16 " better fits the 1/64 scale based on historical information and the tree nailing could look more accurate in planks of that size. Also a major consideration for me is that the larger size should help me to better shape planks for spiling and stealers. (You know, fat fingers, tiny space, still building skills...)

 

I was hoping to also hear from Chuck P, since he designed the kit, to see his take on changing the size of the planks.    If 3/16" is inaccurate or inadvisable I would stick with 1/8"

 

 

Thanks,

Richard T

Edited November 7, 2013 by rtropp

[rtropp]

I am beginning to look at building the copper jig.  Not sure what size copper nails to use.  Can anyone advise if  .028x5/32" (~4 mm) would work? 

 

Thanks

Richard T

[Chuck]

You know where to find me.....3/16" is Ok but its a little wide for the brig.   For a brig of this time period, 10" would be ideal.  The problem with the kit is that 5/32" wide strips are not common so I had to use the smaller strips.  Also with 3/16" strips you may run into problems with bending edgewise.   If you are milling your own strips or spiling from wider sheets you shouldnt have an issue with 5/32" being the most accurate.  That being said...it will certainly change any planking directives I may have used in the instructions.  As far as the nail size...go the smallest you can find.  At this scale you would need to use hypodermic needles that are very small to be in scale.  They would be small 1/2" nail heads or therabouts.  Th eprimary sources on that are scarce to be honest and that is my own best guess.

 

Chuck 

[rtropp]

Chuck,

I appreciate your quick response.

 

I checked and Hobby Mill and they list 1/16 x 5/32 but I am not sure that it will make enough of a difference to stray from your instructions.   I will review the practicum and possibly try a piece or two to see how they look and work.

 

 

The .028x5/32" (~4 mm) nails were cheap enough so I ordered them to get an idea of the scale and fit for the copper plate jig.  Meanwhile, I would appreciate anyone else letting me know what size they used and where they were obtained. 

 

Thanks

Richard T

[rtropp]

Ok, so when last we looked I had finished planking the hull and had it sanded.

 

Well, it went downhill from there.  I did a terrible job of staining one side and not so hot on the other. 

 

The side below is "not so hot

 

 

The next side is terrible...  I was way to heavy handed with the stain (golden oak-minwax). and I did not handle it well.

 

 

So I decided to remove the stain by sanding... and sanding.... and sanding... well, you get the idea.  I was not sure how that would turn out so I only did the really bad side.

 

I started from the keel since that would be covered up anyway with copper

 

 

I thought I would sand of so much that I would create a hole.  But as Chuck has said, there is a surprising amount of depth to the wood and you can really sand it.

 

Next I sanded above the wales,

 

 

 

The good news is that I realize just how much rework the wood can take if necessary. Lesson learned.

 

Now my choice is to stain it again with the golden oak, or sand down the other side and go for a different finish.

 

I am leaning towards re-staining but with a lighter touch and more focus as  I am working. If that comes out decently I may just sand and refinish the other side also.  (Just that the thought of all the sanding makes my shudder....)

 

Richard T

Edited November 12, 2013 by rtropp