Off and running with the schooner rigged pond yacht

[Elmina]

Hello all , I’m off and running with the standing rigging on my massive vintage schooner with the name Elmina . I just had to jump in and start tying , please don’t zoom in , I’m new at this and often get comments about the size of my hands. They look more suited for concrete work . I’ve also started painting the decks before I get too far along on rigging. 
I will soon be thinking about running rigging. I know this isn’t a pond yacht forum but I have gotten great advise on this site. 
I not so much on the pond yacht forums I’ve visited. 
can anyone tell me good resources for diagrams , photos etc. I originally thought my model was missing a ships wheel and helm. But I’m now thinking the threaded shaft from the rudder was for some type of mechanisim for the pond yacht steering. Any advice would be helpful. Unfortunately I don’t have a Handel on the pond yacht operation and do not intend to add sails. But I would like it rigged properly.  I have a diagram and photos of existing connections etc. I have to refine my diagram , it’s so crude I can not even understand it. I will continue to post photos and questions on this thread. Thanks again to all 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, are you sure you want to paint the deck? The deck and cabin house tops are a very nice natural matching color that is a great contrast to the hull and cabin sides and rails. IMHO you're doing more damage than good as you'll lose detail if you paint plus it's not original to the model. My advise for what it's worth, lightly sand and varnish. 

 

 From what I can see in the photos you've done a nice job on the rigging.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Keith Black

[Elmina]

5 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Mike, are you sure you want to paint the deck? The deck and cabin house tops are a very nice natural matching color that is a great contrast to the hull and cabin sides and rails. IMHO you're doing more damage than good as you'll lose detail if you paint plus it's not original to the model. My advise for what it's worth, lightly sand and varnish. 

 

 From what I can see in the photos you've done a nice job on the rigging.

Thank you Keith. I tried to clean up the decks and cabin roofs. I just could not. The paint I am using is very close to original. I am trying to keep things as original as possible but the decks really needed something. I have attached a before and after photo of a cabin roof 

[Jim Lad]

A lovely looking pond yacht, Mike.  If you can give us a photo of the remaining parts of the steering gear, I'm sure someone here will be able to help you with an appropriate replacement.

 

John

[Keith Black]

Mike, I respect your ownership but you're just the current caretaker and as such you have certain responsibilities to the past and to the future. I'm going to be critical but for no reason other than trying to be helpful. There's an old expression in restoration, "it's only original once". Over restoration diminishes the value more often times than not. 

 

You can make this model look brand new, no doubt. But it's not a new model, it's an old model with hard earned patina which is what collectors and historians want to see. They want to see the warts. 

 

 Example, the port running light. You've cleaned the brass around the lens and made it shiny new looking. and painted the light board a bright red. It sticks out like a sore thumb. it looks different than every other piece of brass on the model. For the sake of continuity I take it that your plan is to clean every brass piece. That plus paint and you'll have a model that looks new but worth half (maybe less) what it was worth with its original finish. 

 

 As I said, it's your model. 

[Elmina]

4 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Mike, I respect your ownership but you're just the current caretaker and as such you have certain responsibilities to the past and to the future. I'm going to be critical but for no reason other than trying to be helpful. There's an old expression in restoration, "it's only original once". Over restoration diminishes the value more often times than not. 

 

You can make this model look brand new, no doubt. But it's not a new model, it's an old model with hard earned patina which is what collectors and historians want to see. They want to see the warts. 

 

 Example, the port running light. You've cleaned the brass around the lens and made it shiny new looking. and painted the light board a bright red. It sticks out like a sore thumb. it looks different than every other piece of brass on the model. For the sake of continuity I take it that your plan is to clean every brass piece. That plus paint and you'll have a model that looks new but worth half (maybe less) what it was worth with its original finish. 

 

 As I said, it's your model. 

You are correct. I am going to put the port lite back to original and only paint the remainder deck. Thank you 

[Elmina]

2 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

A lovely looking pond yacht, Mike.  If you can give us a photo of the remaining parts of the steering gear, I'm sure someone here will be able to help you with an appropriate replacement.

 

John

Thank you very much John. I will get that posted this week

[Elmina]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

Mike, I respect your ownership but you're just the current caretaker and as such you have certain responsibilities to the past and to the future. I'm going to be critical but for no reason other than trying to be helpful. There's an old expression in restoration, "it's only original once". Over restoration diminishes the value more often times than not. 

 

You can make this model look brand new, no doubt. But it's not a new model, it's an old model with hard earned patina which is what collectors and historians want to see. They want to see the warts. 

 

 Example, the port running light. You've cleaned the brass around the lens and made it shiny new looking. and painted the light board a bright red. It sticks out like a sore thumb. it looks different than every other piece of brass on the model. For the sake of continuity I take it that your plan is to clean every brass piece. That plus paint and you'll have a model that looks new but worth half (maybe less) what it was worth with its original finish. 

 

 As I said, it's your model. 

I really do appreciate your honesty. I realized as soon I painted that running light it was way too much . I have tried to bring it back to original. Photo attached. I was going to repaint the black tufted leather seats but I guess I should abandon that idea 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, the running light looks perfect. I agree, painting the tufted seats would be a mistake but finding something to stabilize the material would be a good thing if such a product exist. The port side seat's fore corner is a bit tatty but both seats look ever so much better since cleaned. I think you're going to win me over with the painted deck and cabin tops as long as you continue to keep tight paint lines. 

 

 Restoration is not an easy task, not the work as much as is making decisions on when enough is enough. Keep up the good work. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Keith Black

[mtaylor]

17 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 Mike, the running light looks perfect. I agree, painting the tufted seats would be a mistake but finding something to stabilize the material would be a good thing if such a product exist. The port side seat's fore corner is a bit tatty but both seats look ever so much better since cleaned. I think you're going to win me over with the painted deck and cabin tops as long as you're able to keep tight paint lines. 

 

 Restoration is not an easy task, not the work as much as is making decisions on when enough is enough. Keep up the good work. 

I was once told that every artist (and yes, we are artists here) needs to 2 things..... a critic and gun.  The critic for advise and feedback and the gun for the critic to use on the artist when he/she says "it's done... enough.".  

[Jim Lad]

Nothing around the rudder head for you to go on, Mike.  Is the rudder a really tight fit  i.e. is it stiff to turn?  If that is the case, then that was probably the original method of rudder control - simply turn the rudder to whatever angle was required and its stiffness would keep it there.  There would have originally been a tiller fitted to the rudder head.

 

If the rudder is not tight in its casing then I don't know what the original method of control would have been, as there's no sign of fittings or their attachments around the rudder head.  If that's the case, then you have several options, which we can help you with.

 

john

[Keith Black]

I know very little about pond boats/yachts but in what images I've seen I never saw where a ships wheel was employed. Mike, is there a spot on the deck to mark where a ship's wheel would have been? If not there's a good chance there never was a ship's wheel. That doesn't mean one couldn't be added for visual interest. 

[Roger Pellett]

Steering gear could have run the gamut from a toothed rack on the deck to allow the rudder to be set at various fixed settings, to lines rigged from the tiller to various sails, to wind vane or even clockwork steering mechanisms.  All of these would work with a tiller, not a steering wheel.  Refer to pond yacht websites for details.

[Elmina]

Hello , can anyone tell me the intended purpose and or how they should be rigged? 
the horseshoe shaped pieces go around the mast base . There are several small baits with remnants of lines and also some coiled up lines hung from them.

I was told they may prevent fire from reaching the masts but really not sure what they are and how I should rig them . Thank you. 

[Roger Pellett]

Those are called Fife Rails.  They have nothing to do with “Fire,” the incendiary kind or otherwise.  They are simply there for belaying running rigging lines leading  downward from the masts.  On a real ship there would have been holes where the wires are sticking up.  Removable belaying pins would have been fitted into the holes.  In your case, the model maker substituted pieces of wire for the specially shaped belaying pins.  The belaying pin was an ingenious but simple invention.  It allowed the middle of a line to be secured with a secure but easily released hitch.  

 

Roger

[Reggiemon]

The horseshoe shaped pieces are belaying pin rails. (the nails shown would be the belaying pins)

They were positioned around the masts like the one shown in your last picture.

They were used to anchor numerous sail handling lines. Sail halyards, Gaff halyard, topping lifts, etc.

[Keith Black]

Mike, see the attached. Were I you this is where I would deviate from the original model. Instead of using the original nails as belaying pins, I'd carefully remove the nails and drill larger holes to accept belaying pins. Don't remove the three nails that hole to rail to the post. From your third image it looks like that would be ten belaying pins? I don't know if there are off the shelf belaying pins available in the size required. I real life pins were normally 16 to 18 inches in length with the handle being a third the overall length. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Keith Black

[Elmina]

22 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Those are called Fife Rails.  They have nothing to do with “Fire,” the incendiary kind or otherwise.  They are simply there for belaying running rigging lines leading  downward from the masts.  On a real ship there would have been holes where the wires are sticking up.  Removable belaying pins would have been fitted into the holes.  In your case, the model maker substituted pieces of wire for the specially shaped belaying pins.  The belaying pin was an ingenious but simple invention.  It allowed the middle of a line to be secured with a secure but easily released hitch.  

 

Roger

Thank you Roger

[Elmina]

21 hours ago, Reggiemon said:

The horseshoe shaped pieces are belaying pin rails. (the nails shown would be the belaying pins)

They were positioned around the masts like the one shown in your last picture.

They were used to anchor numerous sail handling lines. Sail halyards, Gaff halyard, topping lifts, etc.

Thank you 

[Elmina]

20 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Mike, see the attached. Were I you this is where I would deviate from the original model. Instead of using the original nails as belaying pins, I'd carefully remove the nails and drill larger holes to accept belaying pins. Don't remove the three nails that hole to rail to the post. From your third image it looks like that would be ten belaying pins? I don't know if there are off the shelf belaying pins available in the size required. I real life pins were normally 16 to 18 inches in length with the handle being a third the overall length. 

Thank you that’s a great idea. I thought the small brass nails were odd . I think cleaned up with some belaying pins would make a world of difference. Thanks again 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, the length of the belaying pins will be determined by the post height. What is that measurement? 

[Dr PR]

Belaying plans (where the rigging tied off on deck) are rarely found for ships because everyone knew how to do it and didn't need a plan.

 

The fore-and-aft schooner rig was pretty simple (compared to a square rigged ship). Normally there would be pin rails along the bulwarks along the sides of the hull (but your model doesn't have bulwarks) and the fife rails at the base of the masts. Lines could also belay to ring bolts in the deck at the base of the masts and along bulwarks and cleats near the bottom of the masts and on the bulwarks.

 

The general rules for belaying the running rigging were:

 

1. Lines from lower on the mast would go to the more forward belaying points and lines from higher on the mast would go to belaying points  more aft on the rails. This makes sense because masts often had rakes leaning aft so the origins for lines higher on the mast would be more aft than those lower down.

 

A few vessels had forward raking fore masts so the rule would be reversed in this case.

 

2. Lines originating on or close to the masts led down to the base of the mast, and lines originating nearer the ends of spars (square rigged) would lead down to  pin rails, cleats or ring bolts on or near the bulwarks. On some vessels lines from the higher parts on the masts were belayed to points on the bulwarks or along the sides of the deck.

 

3. Lines must run free without touching other lines (or anything else). If ropes rubbed against something they would chafe and this could lead to the line parting. At sea the ship pitched and rolled and everything aloft was in motion. Even in port the winds and tides caused the ship to move. If a line rubbed against anything else it would cause wear on the line and whatever it touched - even a sail. Where lines must touch something else they were wrapped in chafing gear (wraps of canvas and/or rope) that was supposed to take the wear.

 

The idea behind these rules was to prevent lines from crossing and getting tangled with one another.

 

Since there is no original belaying plan for your model you can rig it just about any way you want. Keep these rules in mind and you can't go wrong in rigging the model.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dr PR

[Roger Pellett]

Mike,  Just a heads up.  99% of belaying pins supplied by kit manufacturers are awful and I don’t know who makes the other 1%.  They are usually way over scale and shaped more like bowling pins than belaying pins.

 

if you can find accurately shaped belaying pins large enough for this model or if you have the ability to turn your own, great.  Otherwise, some brass rod, cut to length with the top end rounded off may be the best choice.

 

Roger

[Keith Black]

Mike, this is a link to Cornwall Model Boats a supplier out of the UK. This will give you a sense of what's available off the shelf. Once again, it's determining what size pin is required. 

 

 https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss000001.pl?page=search&SS=belay+pin&PR=-1&TB=O&ACTION=Go!

[Roger Pellett]

They must be the other 1%.  Their belaying pins look much better than most.

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Their belaying pins look much better than most.

 Roger, Cornwall is pretty darn good supplier. i wish they had a US presence because with their min purchase amount and shipping cost from the UK, it  makes it cost prohibitive for a small order. 

[Elmina]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:05 PM, Keith Black said:

 Mike, the length of the belaying pins will be determined by the post height. What is that measurement? 

Hi Keith , the posts stand 1 inch off the deck , the top rail is 1/4 inch , so 1-1/4” total off the deck.  Thank you 

[Elmina]

9 minutes ago, Elmina said:

Hi Keith , the posts stand 1 inch off the deck , the top rail is 1/4 inch , so 1-1/4” total off the deck.  Thank you 

I see they have many choices. Wood , brass etc. I’ll have to determine the best fit for the scale I’m dealing with . Thank you 

[Keith Black]

 Mike, the largest size belaying pin Cornwall offers is 18mm = .71 inches. One third being handle = .237 inches, stem = .4733 inches -.250 inches for the rail leaves .223 inches of stem exposed below the rail leaving .750 inches between the end of the stem and the deck. 18mm in length is bare minimum and a maximum of 28mm, IMHO. A 28mm pin would have a handle length of .367 inches with .735 inches of stem - .250 inch rail = .485 inches of exposed stem below the rail leaving a clearance between stem end and deck of .515 inches. 

 

 What needs to be taken into account is the size you're using for the running line or any line that's going to be belayed at the rail. Two turns of line around the pin with enough room left on the handle to hang coiled line is optimum, IMHO. See attached photo.

 

 Below is the best looking 18mm pin offered by Cornwall. If you need larger than 18mm you'll have to turn them yourself or have them turned.

 

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=pin belaying 18mm&PN=32703-Belaying-Pin-Walnut-18mm--Pack-of-10--32703.html#SID=92

 

[Elmina]

Hello , I am starting to second guess the rat lines on this model. From all the other examples I see the rat lines had less horizontal distance between them. Also most have at least a third verticals shroud line if not more . I am having a hard time keeping them somewhat tight and consistent and now wondering if this model would have originally had them ?