Duchess of Kingston by DocRob - Vanguard Models - 1/64

[DocRob]

28 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Rob, I think adding a screw and screwing the mizzen into the lower deck would be an alignment nightmare, IMHO. 

 

Keith, thank you, I think all possible solutions will be a nightmare to do right. I measured again, comparing the supplied plans to the actual masts (the masts plans is not 1/64 scale, so I had to calculate a bit). slightly above the first platform, the distance to the main mast is about one centimeter larger than on the plans. I may leave it that way, pending  my shroud test. I will look, how weird the shrouds look, if they are not angled correctly.

Cheers Rob

[Keith Black]

 Rob, you could make the mizzen in two pieces with the upper piece having a slight jog just below deck level. you'd have to fiddle a bit getting the correct angle. You could use 18 GA wire to pin the two pieces together once the angle was established.   

[James H]

To alter the angle, I'd look at taking a little from the rear bottom of the mast and curve the area in gradually so you can bring the mast forward. 

 

Crude, but it would work fine. You would always check the mast angle in each plane anyway, even with the nice cut-outs supplied.

[DocRob]

On 6/21/2022 at 9:29 PM, Keith Black said:

Rob, you could make the mizzen in two pieces with the upper piece having a slight jog just below deck level. you'd have to fiddle a bit getting the correct angle. You could use 18 GA wire to pin the two pieces together once the angle was established.

This was one of my ideas too, but as you say, fiddly to insert into the lower deck and if not glued correctly, it could be a bit unstable with the shrouds under tension.

 

On 6/21/2022 at 10:07 PM, James H said:

To alter the angle, I'd look at taking a little from the rear bottom of the mast and curve the area in gradually so you can bring the mast forward. 

 

Crude, but it would work fine. You would always check the mast angle in each plane anyway, even with the nice cut-outs supplied.

That's another possibility, thank you James. If I remove some material from the backside of the mast in the lower deck area, I could correct the angle and maybe thrust in a peg of wood into the then too wide mast hole in the lower deck through the staircase opening. I have to check, if that might be possible.

 

Cheers Rob 

[DocRob]

Finally I was able to continue a bit with the DoK. I'm waiting for my Proxxon mini mill to materialize, which will make it easier to get the square parts out of te mast dowels.

I prepared the strops, which are made from a PE frame with a pear wood deadeye inserted. That was easy for the smaller variant, but included quite some bending for the larger ones. Naturally, the pre painted PE parts took some damage while bending and needed to be touched up.

 

 

Next were the mast platforms, which are pre cut pear wood, along with some support framing to be glued together. Alignment of the pre cut holes is most important here.

 

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

I added the strops to the hull, not before thinking about a proper method to align them correctly. I took some 6 mm wide Kabuki tape and adhered it to the side plan, marking the placement of the chainplates drilling holes with a pencil. With drawing the pencil lines across the Kabuki tape, I could use my template for both sides.

 

 

I then drilled 0,5 mm holes into the hull at the marked positions, after I checked the angles of the chainplates with a metal ruler to the place, where the mast platforms will be. Then I pushed in the supplied brass nails without glue, but I don't think there is any need for gluing.

 

 

Guess what, while checking the angles of the chainplates for the mizzen mast, I found, that they perfectly match my mizzen mast rake, which I found to be to far aft angled. Now that everything aligns with these angle, I may consider leaving the mizzen mast angle untouched.

 

 

Cheers Rob

Edited June 25, 2022 by DocRob

[DocRob]

Puh, it was a long, but busy time since the last update, but in the moment our houses interiors get painted and that causes a lot of work and distraction from modelling.

The other obstacle is more modelling related and is about learning, how to work best with the lathe and the mill, something I never tried before, at least with wood.
I prepared all the yards on the lathe either with chisels or sanding paper to their designated conical shape.

 

 

Then it was time to turn the mast tops on the lathe, which have a bit more complicated shape. The Kirschen chisels I bought, seemed a bit big for the mini lathe, but they are sharp and of good quality and did the job.

Now it was time to start with the lathe onto the mast parts. These are mostly slightly conical and have flattened and/or squared ends in different sizes in the area of the mastheads. I started with the relatively simple mizzen mast to establish a good workflow and have now prepared the mizzen mast parts completely.

 

 

 

 

 

While working on the lower part of the main mast, disaster struck. The flattened parts were milled with the dividing head and then I made the 5 mm square part, which worked great on three sides, thanks to the dividing head. On the fourth side, somehow the cutting tool went too deep into the material, which was difficult to see for me. I can't explain, why that happened as the tool was fixed, as was the mast chucked.
I stopped where I was and filed the part to 3 mm depth and decided to add a 2 mm strip as a substitute and glued it on. I hope this will hold up on the lathe, where I have to turn some millimeters round on the end of the square part.

Not perfectly square 
 

Resquared 

 

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

Today, I put the patched mast into the lathe and turned the upper square part round, where it meets connecting parts and nothing flew away, phew. The picture shows, how it looks now, but nothing is glued. This area of the mast will be painted black, which will hide the patched part. 
I milled some more square areas onto the middle segment of the mainmast without issues today. It takes time, but I'm seeing an end to preparing mast and yards.

 

 

All the mast parts are done now, except for the fittings. Some sections have delicate shapes, where you have to ponder a while for the best approach to get it done. Finally work was faster and better, as some routine started to develop. I also altere the layout of my machines on their base board for better handling and faster measuring.

Now I have to think about how to add the masts, completely assembled as in the manual or building them up section per section for possibly easier rigging.

 

 

 

 

Cheers Rob

[Glenn-UK]

Nicely done, she looks great

[DocRob]

13 hours ago, glennard2523 said:

Nicely done, she looks great

Thank you Glenn, I'm pretty happy, that I somehow mastered this step and learned a lot of things, as it's my first mast job ever. On to the rigging .

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

 

If you think, I'm dancing around rigging as long as I can, you're absolutely right . I decided to start with the bowsprit, there are no ratlines at least. The wooden parts and fittings are glued on, varnished and partly painted, but the bowsprit itself is not glued in place, as rigging is simpler separated from the hull.
I found, I need to pad a piece of plank under the bowsprit, to get the angle right enough to accept the figurehead. I also added the anchor cable and fitted it around the winch and through the holes in the hull.

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

Finally some progress, with the renovation of the hose and different other activities in the books.

First a vanity shot with all the mast parts in place. These are not glued yet, as I plan to only add the lower segments first for easier rigging. But the next step will be painting the mast platforms and their surroundings black and to add the wooldings (ropes slung around the masts at different height levels).
But the picture is not only for vanity reasons, it's meant to be self motivational as of now, my work on DoK is supervised.  

 

 

The Gentlemen Pellew and Hornblower have arrived my dock. They are made from Vanguard Models and are already primed. Their first job will be to fell victim to my desolate figure painting skills. I'm not decided, if I use oil- or acrylic colors or a mix of both. This will be challenging as the gents are in 64 scale, not exactly my go to scale for figure painting. As a reward, they brought a set of pear blocks for my HMS Sphinx kit with them.

 

 

Cheers Rob

[Keith Black]

54 minutes ago, DocRob said:

next step will be painting the mast platforms and their surroundings black

Rob,  beautiful view of the ship in the first photo. Regarding the tops and painting them black, it makes more sense (to me anyway) for them to be painted white for better visibility during the dark hours. Of course it's your ship and you can paint em purple if that's what you choose.

[DocRob]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

Rob,  beautiful view of the ship in the first photo. Regarding the tops and painting them black, it makes more sense (to me anyway) for them to be painted white for better visibility during the dark hours. Of course it's your ship and you can paint em purple if that's what you choose.

You are absolutely right with the use of white color being more practical orientated. I chose black, because it' is easier to hide some hick ups with my first rigging better in this area and for esthetical reasons. I would think, white platforms look really dominant there and spoil the tonal balance of the build.

I was not sure, how much I liked the white underwater paint of the hull, but found it tolerable, because normally there is a bit of shadow down there. The masts platforms though, are  in full light and sight.

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

38 degrees Celsius and the world is turning very sloooowwwww , but anyway, I glued on the lower mast platforms and varnished the whole mast parts with Wipe on Poly. Then I masked the mast platform areas and airbrushed them with Tamiya's lacquer paint flat black.

 

 

Then I started with the wooldings, I guess, they are for the enforcement of the lower mast parts. Luckily the plans showed a way, how to tie them correctly. I used masking tape as an indicator for the right positions and made six turns for each, which I secured then with water thinned PVA and cut off the ends. Does this count as the beginning of rigging ?

 

 

 

Cheers Rob

[Keith Black]

21 minutes ago, DocRob said:

Does this count as the beginning of rigging

 No but nice try. 

[DocRob]

I do a lot to distract myself from starting with rigging on the Duchess lately, but I'm not sure, if painting 64 scale figures is a good substitute. For now, I will leave the Gentleman Hornblower and Pellew (the names just in case, I rendered them unrecognizable) as they are and when I'm in the mood, I will do some more touchups and detailing.

All blame on the figures are on me, Chris from Vanguard did a marvelous job, designing them.

I used acrylic colors from the Fantasy range of Scale75, which are reasonably good to work with on a wet palette.
When ready, I will cut away the standing plates and substitute them with clear acetate.

My next 64 scale figure will be only if there is a decent rendition of the Duchess of Kingston herself. 

 

Cheers Rob

 

 

[DocRob]

After more than a year, it's about time to push my fears away and start rigging my Duchess of Kingston, something I have never done before.

All starts with one question for you experts. Do you prefer to build up the masts in sections, platform by platform and rig the shrouds for each level or do you build up the complete masts and rig them continuously.

The first variant would ensure easier handling and less danger to knock the DoK from the table during rigging, but the manual suggests to build up the entire masts before rigging.

I would really like to hear your approach as I feel more than a bit lost with all these ropes and knots.

 

This is where I actually are with my build. All the mast parts and spars are prepared too.

 

 

Cheers Rob

[hollowneck]

Rob,

My procedure is to completely fabricate all the masts, main to topgallants and then start the rigging. Carefully evaluate what rigging hardware needs to be attached to the mast components; for example, all the blocks under the tops, on the crosstrees, the blocks for the stays and preventers to the main & mizzen, etc. Vanguard plans for this phase are excellent and you will have plenty of details to follow. This process can be a complicated one (understatement). I use a red marker to check off each item on the plans once completed.

Nice job on your Hornblower & Pellew. Removing the base on them is a tricky business; a combo of hand cutters and sanding. Proceed very slowly. It's all too easy for either (or both) of them to end up with a prosthetic leg in this process.

To fully rig this model will take you approximately as long as it took for you to build her hull; that's a rule-of-thumb I advise beginning modelers of square rigs.

Great job!

Edited September 18, 2023 by hollowneck
grammar

[chris watton]

Very nice job you have done, it looks amazing!

 

Fo me, I always make all masts and yards together, then I know all 'woodwork' is then complete. I make up the masts away from the model, and block them, same with yards. I then step the masts (with a small drop of PVA on each of the bottoms of the fore, main and mizzen lower masts). I then add the yards, pinning them in place and adding the parrels,  before starting on shrouds. Some prefer to leave yards off until later, however.

[Keith Black]

 Once the mast and yards were completed I found it much easier to do as much off model rigging of the mast as possible.

[DocRob]

12 hours ago, hollowneck said:

My procedure is to completely fabricate all the masts, main to topgallants and then start the rigging. Carefully evaluate what rigging hardware needs to be attached to the mast components; for example, all the blocks under the tops, on the crosstrees, the blocks for the stays and preventers to the main & mizzen, etc. Vanguard plans for this phase are excellent and you will have plenty of details to follow. This process can be a complicated one (understatement). I use a red marker to check off each item on the plans once completed.

Nice job on your Hornblower & Pellew. Removing the base on them is a tricky business; a combo of hand cutters and sanding. Proceed very slowly. It's all too easy for either (or both) of them to end up with a prosthetic leg in this process.

To fully rig this model will take you approximately as long as it took for you to build her hull; that's a rule-of-thumb I advise beginning modelers of square rigs.

 

11 hours ago, chris watton said:

Fo me, I always make all masts and yards together, then I know all 'woodwork' is then complete. I make up the masts away from the model, and block them, same with yards. I then step the masts (with a small drop of PVA on each of the bottoms of the fore, main and mizzen lower masts). I then add the yards, pinning them in place and adding the parrels,  before starting on shrouds. Some prefer to leave yards off until later, however.

 

9 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Once the mast and yards were completed I found it much easier to do as much off model rigging of the mast as possible.

 

Thank you Ron, Chris and Keith for explaining your method. The common process you describe is to assemble the masts completely off the model. I wouldn't have thought of that, but now, pondering about, it seems logical. Handling is much easier this way, but I'm not sure, if I want to add the yards right away, but will definitely do all the preparations to accept the yards, before starting with the shrouds.

 

@hollowneck I will use my razor saw with a very fine blade for the surgery of the Gentlemen. 
The construction of the hull took about two and a half month and was faster done than thought. For the rigging, I expected more, given my non existent expertise. It's not often that I feel that lost with modeling .

 

Cheers Rob

 

[Theodosius]

Nice to see you back on your great model! I like how you rescued the too-deep-cut on the mizzen-mast with an added pice of scrap wood!

[DocRob]

2 hours ago, Theodosius said:

Nice to see you back on your great model! I like how you rescued the too-deep-cut on the mizzen-mast with an added pice of scrap wood!

Thank you Theodosius, it's my first wooden ship build and only the thought of rigging makes me shiver. In normal live, I tie my shoes and that's it .
The correction of my mistake with the mizzen mast, seems to be robust enough to take the strain, luckily.

 

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

Long time no see and there is a reason for it, RIGGING. I built some WW I biplanes over the years and found the rigging difficult but manageable, but this is something completely different, this is frightening and I don't know, how the talented builders here manage to rig their ships to perfection.
 

BUT, I will not give up, I will try to finish the Duchess of Kingston as good as I can, but I can tell you, never in my modeling career I felt so lost. Luckily there are many good build threads here on MSW, which helped me during the earlier stages of the build and will help with the rigging too.

 

I started rigging, adding several blocks and deadeyes to the bowsprit and yard. The process is complicated and my seizing looks terrible in places. CA glue for securing my simple knots is the savior. The bowsprit and yard are not permanently attached to the hull, as I want the maximum possible freedom of movement as long as possible.

My rigging will be far from perfect and I'm willing to take some shortcuts. I hope my technique will develop, while at it and in the end the DoK will look at least ok.

I will continue to pre-rig all the masts, before adding them to the hull.

 

 

 

Cheers Rob

[Theodosius]

To my eyes that all looks good enough for not to be afraid of this rigging process ;-)

[DocRob]

Thank you for your encouragements, I omitted some macro shots, revealing the shortcomings of my clumsy rigging .

 

Cheers Rob

[Toolmaker]

Hi Rob,

 

I’ve not commented on your more recent builds, but I have enjoyed following along immensely.

 

I feel your pain regarding rigging, or in fact any other aspect of modelling that we might struggle with to match our peers.
To that end, I have a good friend who is a very accomplished modeller, he is an IPMS Championship winner in the UK and his work is well respected in aircraft modelling magazines. He recently told me how he would “love” to copy my model ship woodwork, but felt he was rubbish at woodwork.
Now I know he would be fantastic at doing wooden ship models, (eventually), but of course the “apprenticeship is still x number of years”, and that won’t be full of walk in the park fun.

 

Myself, I have been a confident airbrusher, hey I could spray, clean the airbrush and spray again six time an hour. I used to solder 0.5mm brass for fun, but for the past 3 years I have struggled with wood ship building. Thankfully I am improving (I realise that’s only my opinion) and I am committed to this part of the hobby as I have sold all my plastic kits.

 

I think the upshot is that some of the model making skills take years to master and like with anything if you don’t keep updating those skills you will lose them.

 

“Jack of all trades, master of none” was a saying from my youth and it still stands today. I think eventually you will probably decide to focus more on what you enjoy, which of course is obvious as long as it remains a hobby.

 

Aside from the modelling, I enjoy your open approach and collective sharing. Thank you.

 

Cheers bud

 

Regards

Paul

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Toolmaker

[DocRob]

19 hours ago, Toolmaker said:

I’ve not commented on your more recent builds, but I have enjoyed following along immensely.

 

I feel your pain regarding rigging, or in fact any other aspect of modelling that we might struggle with to match our peers.
To that end, I have a good friend who is a very accomplished modeller, he is an IPMS Championship winner in the UK and his work is well respected in aircraft modelling magazines. He recently told me how he would “love” to copy my model ship woodwork, but felt he was rubbish at woodwork.
Now I know he would be fantastic at doing wooden ship models, (eventually), but of course the “apprenticeship is still x number of years”, and that won’t be full of walk in the park fun.

 

Myself, I have been a confident airbrusher, hey I could spray, clean the airbrush and spray again six time an hour. I used to solder 0.5mm brass for fun, but for the past 3 years I have struggled with wood ship building. Thankfully I am improving (I realise that’s only my opinion) and I am committed to this part of the hobby as I have sold all my plastic kits.

 

I think the upshot is that some of the model making skills take years to master and like with anything if you don’t keep updating those skills you will lose them.

 

“Jack of all trades, master of none” was a saying from my youth and it still stands today. I think eventually you will probably decide to focus more on what you enjoy, which of course is obvious as long as it remains a hobby.

 

Aside from the modelling, I enjoy your open approach and collective sharing. Thank you.

True words Paul, thank you for that. Modeling for me is competing with myself only, as I never went to competitions. I like to challenge myself and as I'm easily bored, staying with the always same subjects, I like to diversify my projects and try to learn new techniques with every project, I start.

You are absolutely right, that acting this way, never will lead to a mastership in all these disciplines, but I accepted that.
I feel that working with many different subjects widens the view for possible solutions and applied techniques. If you are an accomplished airbrusher, like yourself, (I'm using airbrushes since over thirty years) it helps with wooden ship modeling as well, for two reasons, first, directly, you can avoid rattle cans and apply color smooth and fine, where many traditional model ship builder would use a brush. Second and even more important, you learned to have the correct disciplined mindset and quality approach, that is needed for both, airbrushing and ship building.

I think, ship modeling has closed a bit into the direction of plastic modeling recently, due to extensive use of photoetch, resin casting, 3D-printing, ... and if you are willing to leave the traditional path, skills earned in plastic modelling, become more and more helpful.

Your verdict is correct though, but general modeling experience and a quality orientated open mindset helps a lot to close the gap to the masters, but for sure, never reaching it, unfortunately .

I hope your struggles with wooden ship modeling will be solved soon and you still have fun, because that's what count most. It's a hobby and meant to be fun.

 

Cheers Rob

 

 

[DocRob]

I can't seem to find building time lately. Nonetheless, I added all the wooden fittings to the yards, glued the PE footrest holders in with CA and inserted brass rods for pinning the yards to the masts. Then all was sprayed matte black.
 

Cheers Rob