Roman Quadrireme by glykan - 1:50 - low tech/low budget "go-by-flow" project

[glykan]

Hi everyone,

This is my first more or less "serious" scratch project and I would greatly appreciate your comments, input or critique. So, the idea is to build a 1:50 POB model of a Roman quadrireme of the Punic wars period assuming the following:

- original size about 30 m (100ft) long and about 6m (~20 ft) wide

- two raw of oars (about 20 oars in each raw) with two oarsmen per oar

- fully decked vessel with protection of the oarsmen from enemy projectiles

- two masts with medium-size sails

- corvus (not sure about exact design)

- on the deck - two scorpions in front and two ballistas on each side (what else???)

Since I have no final blueprint to stick to, I would "go by flow" which means that I would add, remove or modify things as I build the model. Here are two photos of what I already did, very first step of making a keel and a current state of the bulkhead frame (still being modified). Most materials are from Dollarama and Home Depot and are inexpensive though later I would probably use some model-building grade planks and veneers. I cut everything with the manual jig-saw and adjust with the sandpaper and use mostly basic household tools  - that's why I call my project  "low-tech" and "low budget".

Eugene

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Off to an excellent start...

[mtaylor]

Great start, Eugene.  I would like to suggest you go to the "New Member Introduction" area and do an intro to let others know who you are and what your building.  

[Ian_Grant]

Welcome Eugene! I'm excited to see this new build - same ship as I'm doing but at a different scale. Looking forward to see how yours evolves.

 

Scorpion, ballista, maybe Greek fire? Also the archery tower. Here's an awesome model someone made; I contacted "Cast Your Anchor" to ask about where the builder got the crewmen but they knew nothing about the model.

 

https://m.facebook.com/Cast-Your-Anchor-Hobby-246287451905/videos/roman-navy-galley-warship-model-boat-awesome-cast-your-anchor-specializes-in-sta/325854628861004/

 

You may already have it but I recommend Michael Pitassi's excellent book "Roman Warships". It contains a corvus description according to the historian Polybius:  ( units converted to modern usage).

 

" A round pole about 24 feet high and 10 inches in diameter was erected on the prow of the ship. At the top of this pole was a pulley and at its base a gangway four feet in width and 36 ft in length made of planks which were nailed across each other. Twelve feet from one end of the gangway an oblong slot was cut, into which the base of the pole was fitted and each of the long sides of the gangway was protected by a rail as high as a man's knee. At the outboard end of the gangway was fixed an iron spike shaped like a pestle; this was pointed at one end and had an iron ring at the other and looked like the appliance which is used for pounding corn. A rope was passed through the ring and thence through the pulley at the top of the pole. When the ship charged an opponent, the "raven" would be hauled up by means of the pulley and then dropped onto the deck of the enemy vessel: this could be done either over the bows, or the gangway could be swivelled round if the two ships collided broadside-on. A soon as the "raven" was embedded in the planks of the deck and fastened the ships together, the soldiers would leap down onto the enemy vessel. If the two ships were alongside, they could board all the way down the hull, but if they had collided bows on, the men stayed on the gangway and advanced down it two abreast. The leading pair then protected their front by holding their shield before them, while the files who followed guarded their sides by resting the bottom of their shields on the top of the railing."

 

Mr. Pitassi mentions that attaching the rope direct to the ring would mean an awkward moment as the marines tried to get past the rope just as they step down to the enemy deck; it would make more sense to have a yoke overhead from which two ropes attach to the sides of the gangway. Also, would not the gangway be wobbly supported by the single spike? He also puzzles over the lengthy slot in the gangway.

 

Who knows? Polybius lived from c.200-118BC and was present at naval operations in the 3rd punic war; nearly a century after the corvus was obsoleted. Meaning neither he nor anyone he could have met could have actually seen one.

 

Here's an image of the box art of the Zvezda Roman Galley model with a corvus interpretation. I have one in my stash; it's very nicely molded with perfect fit of parts.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Ian_Grant

[glykan]

Thanks Ian,

Thanks a lot for the information on corvus, I think I'll go somewhere between Polybius description and depiction of it on a roman coin below and just apply some common sense and practicality considerations.

As for the model you've contacted "Cast Your Anchor" about, I believe that this is a discontinued quinquereme model "Nave Romana" by Italian company Hachette (https://www.hachette-fascicoli.it/)  and there are several videos on YouTube about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLiGM6MOBL0.  Russian model by Zvezda is also pretty good though their corvus seems to be obstructed by the foremast and the excessively raised front of the hull.

 

Do you have a construction log on your model?

 

Thanks again,

Eugene

 

 

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Eugene; yes, my log is in the "Scratch Builds up to and including 1500" section, as is yours (see below).

 

Pitassi shows early quinquiremes with no bow bulwarks at all, like a Greek trireme, to accommodate banging the corvus downward. Part of the reason they were un-seaworthy and so many sank in storms in the 1st Punic war.

Interestingly, he mentions that uncovered wall paintings in Herculaneum, apparently depicting quadriremes across the bay at the naval base, have a central archery tower which would obviate a mast.

 

I needed to limit my remes to two for RC, so I'm building a "quadrireme" which nonetheless will have a mast and a forward tower because they are so visually compelling.

 

I've barely started on the hull; spent months devising and improving an oar mechanism for RC.

 

I was tracing out my stern sections today before laser cutting (I hope) and I think I have a problem with the stern bulwarks - I didn't include them in my stern half hull carving and they're flaring out a lot if I continue my hull curves.....blah....blah......you can skip to page 6 in my log to catch up on the hull "progress" if not interested in the rowing.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Eugene, they're the wrong scale for your model, but if a reader is considering buying the Zvezda 1/72 scale model they may be interested in these plastic figures I bought for mine:

[glykan]

Ian,

I have, actually, seen your log though didn't realize it was you - sorry, my fault. Or, in Latin manner - mea culpa...  You are progressing on the absolutely amazing model and I can't wait to see it afloat next summer in Andrew Haydon park.

With corvus, towers, masts and other features and details - I believe it is always a compromise between historical data, visual appeal of the model and technical "doability" of certain things and it is up to you to decide what do you want to see in your model. I, in my turn,  am trying to stick to some common sense though very often it's easier said than done.

[glykan]

13 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said:

Eugene, they're the wrong scale for your model, but if a reader is considering buying the Zvezda 1/72 scale model they may be interested in these plastic figures I bought for mine:

Thanks Ian,

I am not a big fan of the figures, maybe because many of them require the meticulous painting and I am a lousy painter but yes, they would be a nice addition to the proper scale model.

[glykan]

Ian,

I looked at the figures you've mentioned - very interesting indeed. People still can buy them on eBay or Amazon though the manufacturer itself is in Ukraine and probably suffers from blackouts caused by Russian bombing. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the company switched to the production of plastic items for military instead of toys

[Ian_Grant]

Eugene,  thanks for the link to the Nave Roman build video which I just watched. It's great! I could never get good looks at the model in the video I cited whose lighting is a bit dim.

 

There are a couple of shots in this new video which show the "boarding bridge" lying across the foredeck in line with the gaps in the bulwarks. I was going to do the same as my target is after the corvus was obsoleted. Was hoping to get a good look at the fixture at the base of the mainmast allowing it presumably to be tilted down when unrigging which is something I will need to make.

 

I also really like his colour scheme. Think I will do the same. Except for the planked natural areas.

 

I'd love to get this kit.

[glykan]

15 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Eugene,  thanks for the link to the Nave Roman build video which I just watched. It's great! I could never get good looks at the model in the video I cited whose lighting is a bit dim.

 

There are a couple of shots in this new video which show the "boarding bridge" lying across the foredeck in line with the gaps in the bulwarks. I was going to do the same as my target is after the corvus was obsoleted. Was hoping to get a good look at the fixture at the base of the mainmast allowing it presumably to be tilted down when unrigging which is something I will need to make.

 

I also really like his colour scheme. Think I will do the same. Except for the planked natural areas.

 

I'd love to get this kit.

Ian,

I think you can find some more details in another video from the same guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuYBk0znbB8&list=PLN8dHnRD0y61NWWulgdXo7fMLYSnjZ943&index=9

and from the manufacturer's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw64O3TunfM

I would also like to get this kit though it seems to be discontinued (at least I didn't find it on their website) and it would probably cost me an arm and a leg

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

National Geographic's "History" magazine just came out, and includes an interesting article on Greek triremes.

[VTHokiEE]

Very interesting build - some day I hope to build a ship or two from this era as well.

 

1 hour ago, glykan said:

I would also like to get this kit

I've been keeping a half eye out for this kit as well, unfortunately I doubt I'll find it (and be able to purchase it). Maybe if enough of us band together we can convince the designer to make a different variation 😁.

[Ian_Grant]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:36 AM, glykan said:

Ian,

I have, actually, seen your log though didn't realize it was you - sorry, my fault. Or, in Latin manner - mea culpa...  You are progressing on the absolutely amazing model and I can't wait to see it afloat next summer in Andrew Haydon park.

<snip...snip>

Because last spring's "derecho" felled a neighbour's tree which crushed our above-ground pool, I was thinking maybe I could maiden her in the shallow pool/fountain at Nepean city hall on Centrepointe Drive, if it's deep enough, not sure. If something went amiss I could easily wade out to my ankles to retrieve it. Also not sure how "security" would react......

 

A swim in the pond at AH park would be pretty yucky. 😬

 

Apparently the Ottawa RC boat club (Rideau Nautical Modellers) sometimes uses the pond at Brown's Inlet in the Glebe. That might be nice calm location for a galley!

[glykan]

I decided to make a cut-out in upper deck to show the rowers' benches. In order to make them looking realistically had to re-adjust the height of both decks and the re-shape that extension on a side of a hull (I guess they called it "thranos"). Veneered and varnished this new section while I still have a good access to it. Now ready for planking...

[rookie]

Take your canoe or retrieve it ?

[glykan]

First planking done. With all changes of the general design and the hull shape this should be considered as a version 2.4

Upper deck and bulwark are in progress

 

[Ian_Grant]

Wow! She's really beautiful!

[glykan]

2 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Wow! She's really beautiful!

Thanks, it actually came out better than I expected. What do you think about the height of the bulwark? Would 3 ft (in a full-size ship) be reasonable? In my model, that seems to be a bit too high but after all it's a warship and people on a deck need some protection from enemy projectiles.

One more and rather unusual detail to be (or not to be) included - I've seen somewhere in Internet (didn't make any bookmark on it though) that the quadriremes and larger ships were equipped with the Archimedes screw to pump out the water from the holds. Do you think it's plausible?

[Ian_Grant]

I debated the same thing about the bulwark. I'm aiming for about 40" after lying paper across "Julius" my 1/32 scale human figure cutout, but I'm not committed yet as my bulwarks aren't yet cut and anyway the top rail could vary a little. Bear in mind the average Roman male was 5'-6" or 5'-7" or so.

 

Pitassi's drawings seem to show a bulwark even less then 3 ft; but that's trying to measure up from a drawing where the ship is only 4" long.

 

That "Nave Roman" build seems to have pretty robust bulwarks.

 

Pitassi does list pumps in his chapter on equipment, but doesn't mention Archimedes screws. Here is an extract from his book:

[glykan]

Thanks a lot Ian, it's all very useful information. I'll stick to 3ft for the time being and see how it looks with my re-designed stern post, the initial one looked way too short for my bulwark.

I must admit I never thought that a double-action pump goes back to 2nd century BC, for me it has always been associated with much later period. Live and learn...

[glykan]

Upper deck and bulwark are in place. There is still need for some touch-ups and the bow post will be definitely updated but other than that I'd say that the hull is finished. Second planking (especially of the deck and the bulwark) might be delayed since the FedEx parcel from Occre with the thin linden planks has somehow lost the sense of direction - after sitting in Paris airport for several days it has been sent to Memphis, TN (???) and only God knows when it can reach me here in Ottawa. In a meanwhile I have to decide on the color scheme and start making items to "furnish"  the deck (not to mention about 80 oars that I have to make).

[Ian_Grant]

Eugene, looks great! What height did you settle on for the bulwarks?

 

Maybe they mixed up Tennessee TN, and Toronto?

 

Will you be carving the ram? I'm a long way from there, but for my large boat it would be cool to make one from brass and let it discolour with time. If I can't afford the weight I will TinkerCAD it and get my brother to 3D print it for me in plastic.

 

I too was wondering about the deck. Last time I made an RC boat, in the 70's, I simply penciled lines on the deck plywood and spar varnished it. I want to do better this time. You found a cost-effective strip supplier in Europe?

 

I think the outrigger extends a bit too far forward, if you don't mind the input. (Just let me know if I should 🤐!)  🙂

 

I'm going to a meeting of Rideau Nautical Modellers this Wednesday in Bells Corners. The guy told me I will fit right in with the members who use Arduinos, or who build electro-mechanical doo-dads. Don't know whether to take my galley skeleton, or the oar mechanism.

 

Happy New Year!

[glykan]

9 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

Eugene, looks great! What height did you settle on for the bulwarks?

Ian, happy New Year to you and all our colleagues here!

For the time being I have the bulwark corresponding to 2'6" (75cm) of original size and I will add some railing on top of it later, so the total should be just below 3 feet. Might be a bit low in terms of practicality for the battle protection but I'll see later if I like it or not - that's why I call my projects "go by flow" when there is no final blueprint and a lot of things can be modified at rather late stage. Which brings us to the outrigger (oar box) issue - btw thanks a lot for your comment, I do appreciate it. After you've mentioned it - yes, it looks to me now that visually it's a bit too long in fore and a bit too short in aft. Now I need to think about it...

I ordered the linden strips from OcCre (https://occre.com/en-ca/collections/todos-los-productos/products/chapa-tilo-0-6x5mm) - they have attractive price and the shipment is only CAD$14. I want to see the strips before I decide how to plank the deck, maybe a simple blackening of the plank edge with a pencil or a marker would be enough to create the visual appeal I am after. By the way, my parcel is moving, it's already in Mirabel which means that I may get it in a couple of days! Still wondering why in a hell did they send it to Tennessee when there is at least a dozen of direct FedEx cargo fights from Paris to Mirabel. Maybe all staff in French FedEx branch had a very early New Year hangover syndrome 😉

[glykan]

Ram - didn't decide on it yet, two options are to carve it from wood and paint bronze (cheap and dirty option) or to combine a wooden core with some brass details glued on. By the way about the color of brass details. My initial idea was to darken all brass details to antique look with the substance they call "liver of sulfur" (quite popular among craft jewelry makers) provided that the batch I have is still working, since it's rather unstable once opened. Wood be cool to get some green hue too, but it's a special technique which I don't want to go to.

[Ian_Grant]

I don't think the outrigger is too short aft; behind it comes the platforms on which the rudders are mounted. Also they might have been used for boarding, as Pitassi depicts in one of his outstanding models:

 

[glykan]

2 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

I don't think the outrigger is too short aft;  behind it comes the platforms on which the rudders are mounted.

Yes, the rudder platform (balcony) is in my plans and it should balance the visual appearance of the bow vs stern. Maybe I have to make it, fix it on the hull temporarily and see if the fore part of the outrigger still calls for any adjustment. It isn't really a big deal to cut it shorter and patch the hole though it would bring a number of oars per raw down to 18 which might be a bit low for a 30-meter vessel.

[glykan]

It's time to report the progress, I recon. Bulwark still needs the top railing and I'll try to bring the total bulwark height to 1m (in original size ship), it seems to me that this height  is quite reasonable. Not sure if I keep this rudder platform, for the time being I am not really exited about its size and shape. Maybe it'll look better with the railing and some decoration. Now I need to plank the middle section of the hull and my color options are linden (the same as on the deck), slightly darker obeche, cherry, medium-brown walnut or reddish-brown mahogany (sapele, actually). Or any of them dyed or painted over 🙃 Tough choice...

Edited January 18, 2023 by glykan

[glykan]

OK, here is the next step. Still didn't decide of the ram yet, instead will probably go for the masts and the sail rigging and than see what else can (or should) be added.