Frigate Diana by RossR - OcCre - 1:85

[RossR]

One of my goals with this model is to learn new skills and improve on the ones I developed on my first ship.  One of the skills I wanted to learn was soldering.   after a few youtube videos and a little bit of practice I made my first attempt to solder parts for the model.  I soldered the brass pin into the bracket for the rudder.  I know there is a nautical term for the "bracket" but I cannot think of it right now.  

 

 

They turned out pretty good.  There were four total, and I needed to do a little file work to remove some excess solder on a couple. These will be blackened before they are installed.  

 

The next item that will need to be soldered is the lantern for the stern.  The is a brass piece that is bent to create a six sided frame for the lantern that needs to be soldered to itself were the two ends meet.  My question for the forum is, can the brass part of the lantern be soldered to the cast metal base and top of the the lantern?  Not sure if the Britannia Metal has too low of a melting point.  Any feedback or advice on this would be appreciated.  

Edited July 17, 2023 by RossR

[Gregory]

 

50 minutes ago, RossR said:

I know there is a nautical term for the "bracket" but I cannot think of it right now.  

Pintle and gudgeon.

[RossR]

Thanks.  I appreciate the info.

 

[allanyed]

The pintles and gudgeons are fun little projects to practice soldering techniques, congrats for giving it a go!  If not too late, or for the future, the below shows the approximate sizes of the various parts and number of bolts on a typical 32 gun British ship in the 1790s.  I suspect the Spanish ships would be similar.    For your scale of 1:85, the straps would be 0.047" (1.2mm) wide, the pin would be about 0.035" (0.9mm) and the bolt heads would be about 0.018 (0.45mm)  Note the lengths of the straps and the number of bolts as well.  I show the dimensions of the lower one, but you can size the rest using the scale to get an idea of their respective lengths.  For the lower ones at your scale, they are about 0.53" (13.5mm) and 0.81" (20.6mm)     The materials used were typically copper or iron.  If you use copper you can blacken them once installed with liver of sulfur to represent iron or leave them clean to show as copper.  Again, it may be different for Spanish ships, but this information should be close.  

Allan

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by allanyed

[RossR]

9 hours ago, allanyed said:

For your scale of 1:85, the straps would be 0.047" (1.2mm) wide

Allen

 

Thanks for the information.  No big surprise but the kit supplied material is over scale.  They are about 3.1 mm wide vs 1.2mm.  I do not own a drill press, so I am not very confident that I could drill the small holes in 1.2mm material with a hand held drill.  I may see if I can get some 2mm brass strips and try with that.  It would still be over scale, but at least closer.

 

Hopefully someday I will keep adding to my tool arsenal and will own a drill press and can tackle items like this.  

 

 

[Gregory]

You might consider card.  It really lends itself to simple shapes like this.

 

 

I used black card, but it takes paint very well so the color  of the stock is not that important.

[RossR]

Do you pin the rudder to the ship?   The pintels and gudgeons the only means of holding the rudder in place if I build the model as the manufacturer intended?  

[Gregory]

6 minutes ago, RossR said:

Do you pin the rudder to the ship?

Yes, but I'm not sure it's necessary depending on how you go about fabricating.    I didn't document my method very well, but I could come up with something if you are interested.

I will eventually be doing it with my rattlesnake, but can't say how far in the future that might be.

[GrandpaPhil]

I pin my rudders to the ship.  It adds strength and prevents movement of the part.

[allanyed]

13 hours ago, Gregory said:

You might consider card.

Great suggestion.   I agree that in this case it is good to pin the rudder in place.    IF you want the rudder to be able to turn, then working metal parts are  best.   A last alternative is to draw the parts in 3D and have them printed in 3D.   These could be the most realistic looking parts at smallest scales if drawn accurately.    

Allan

Edited July 20, 2023 by allanyed

[allanyed]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:54 PM, RossR said:

I do not own a drill press, so I am not very confident that I could drill the small holes in 1.2mm material with a hand held drill.

 

Thinking about this a bit further, when working at the small scales like your build, you might want to  forget drilling holes and just epoxy the pintles and gudgeons in place if you use copper or plastic or brass parts or pva glue if you use card stock.  In either case, once they are secured in place you can use a needle tip to make tiny bolt heads on the straps by dipping it in glue and making the requisite number of dots on the straps and a clean needle tip to make dents representing screws.  For the bolt heads I make a small puddle of PVA and add a tiny bit of black acrylic paint so it does not have to painted once set.  It does not take much but a little experimenting will help.   

Allan

Edited July 21, 2023 by allanyed

[GrandpaPhil]

A pounce wheel works well for embossing nail heads in card when using card for

iron banding or plating.

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, GrandpaPhil said:

A pounce wheel works well for embossing nail heads

The Excel 7/16" stock wheel with 14 points would be very close for marking the spacing of the fixture at 1:85 scale.  As the straps were secured with a combination of screws and bolts, the pounce wheel may not be a good idea for other than marking the spacing though as one or two would be bolt heads on each pintle strap and the other indented like screws.  Just like the pintles the gudgeons were sometimes secured to the hull with a combination of screws and bolts but sometimes only with bolts.

 

There is a lot more to the shape and taper in thickness but at 1:85, probably not so noticeable.

 

David Antscherl gives a lot of really good detail on these in volume II of TFFM.

 

Allan

[RossR]

I spent some time this weekend expirementing with using card stock.  I think I need some that was a little thinker to get a better result, but I think I could get there.  I did notice a potential problem with not using the kit supplied parts.  before I started with the soldering, I had drilled the holes for pins in the rudder.  If I use a 1.2mm card stock strip to make the pintle and place it at the top of the notch in the rudder, it won't cover the pin holes that I have already drilled.  If I place them to cover the pin holes, the pintle will be placed in the middle of the notch in the rudder instead of at the top.  

 

I really appreciate all the information and great suggestions, but this may be an improvement that gets added to my next model.  I think I will be using the kit supplied materials on this model.

 

[RossR]

Here is my attempt at making an improved grate for the upper deck of my ship.  I used leftover material that came with the kit.  The openings of the grate would work out to 6 - 7 inches which is about double the size they should be.  I do not think I have the skill or equipment to make my own grating material.  I considered purchasing proper scaled materials, but I have already blown the budget on this ship a little bit by buying miniature rope from Syren for most of the rigging.  

 

At work I often tell people not to let perfect stand in the way of better, and that is the way I am looking at this build.  The grates are far from perfect but better than the first ones I built.  The arched top isn't perfectly symmetrical, but that is the best I could do with the limited left over material.  I had a third one that I took way to much material off of when forming the arched top.  I think I have the battens running the wrong way also, but had to make some comprises due to the limited material I had left.  

 

These pictures were before I finished the Sapelli with shellac.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a comparison to the ones built following the instructions.  

 

 

Thanks to Allen for helping with how to fabricate the head ledge and coamings and the information on the proper scale.  

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by RossR

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, RossR said:

At work I often tell people not to let perfect stand in the way of better, and that is the way I am looking at this build. 

That is a great attitude Ross.  A quote to be used by all of us at times.

Allan

[RossR]

Progress has been a little slow in the shipyard.  Summer activities have gotten in the way.  I have made some progress adding the deck features on the forward part of the ship.  

 

I didn't like the cleats that came with the kit.  They were mounted flush with no pin, and I didn't trust they would hold effectively without a pin.  I decided to take a try at carving my own.  I glued a couple of pieces of 1/8 x 1/8 inch basswood together and then shape it with a file.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then added a pin so it could be securely attached.

 

 

I added the belfy, a railing  the pin rails and some sampsons to complete the forward part of the deck.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have been making progress on rigging and installing the 12 - 6 pound guns that are on the upper gun deck.  I will get some pictures of that posted in a few days when I am finished with them.  I have also started putting together some of the other deck features on the aft part of the ship such as the ship's wheel.  I didn't care for the cast metal pieces that were provided with the kit that the wheels were mounted to.  I decided to fabricate my own out of some scraps of walnut that I had.

 

I built wooden frames that were the same shape and size of the parts provided by Occre.  This is what I came up with and I am pretty happy with the result.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The picture on the right shows my version next to the part supplied by Occre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now the problem - after putting this together and setting it on the deck, it looked way too big.  The wheel measures 24mm in diameter.  A 1:85 scale that works out to a diameter 7.5 feet.  Add another few mm for the frame and the total height is close to 8 feet tall.  I looked online at a few modern photos of ships and I can't find any that appear to have a wheel even close to that big.   

 

If anyone has any information to suggest that these aren't way to big, please share it with me, but I really think I am going to have to purchase some smaller wheels and start over.  I found some online that are 14mm that should be closer to a 4 foot diameter.

 

I am a little bummed because I liked how these turned out.  

 

[CiscoH]

They do look really good and I had to laugh that after all that work they're not the right scale.  We've all been there.

But when you make them again smaller it'll go twice as fast

[RossR]

It took me awhile, but I finally have the 12 - 6 pound guns rigged and installed.  I have some of the other features of the quarter deck installed, but not everything including the ships wheel.  I rigged all of the guns, because one of my goals was to try new things.  I don't know if I would recommend it on a 1:85 scale, but I am glad I did.

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will be finishing the quarter deck over the next few weeks, but I will also be working on mounting the ships boats over the opening on the upper deck and I have already started fabricating the components of the bow sprit.  I will post updates on those items as I finish them.  

 

Thanks to everyone that has liked and commented on my build log.  I appreciate all the support.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have made progress on the mid-ships section of the deck, including mounting the ships boats and adding the railings.  The boats that came with the kit were metal castings that required the addition of some planks for the floors and the seats.  I considered trying to scratch build something more interesting.  I got some great info from one of the users on the forum, but in the end I do not think that my skills are quite up to scratch building the boat at this time.  I completed the kit provided boats for now.  I know these are nothing special, but I didn't glue them in place.  They are held only by the line tying them down.  If I ever decide to attempt the build something more interesting, these can be removed and replaced pretty easily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The kit provided 1mm x 4mm strips for the railings.  The material was a little too thin to fit snugly in the stanchion and at 4mm it looked too tall.  I bought a couple of 1/8 x 1/16 strips at a hobby shop to replace the 1mm x 4mm strips and I needed to sand the 1/16 dimension down a little to get it to fit in the stanchion, but I am really happy with the result  

 

I have a few more items to add to the deck and then it is on to the bowsprit.  I have already started fabricating some of the pieces.  Starting to think about the deadeyes and chain plate also.  

Edited August 26, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I have started fabricating the components for the bowsprit.  I have also been assembling my Serv-O-Matic from Syren.  I have a pretty good handle on what should be served on the shrouds and stays, but I am not as sure about some of the lines that are used to secure the components of the bowsprit.  I have attached a photo of the plan for the bowsprit.  Should the items that I pointed to the photo be served?  I would appreciate any help anyone can provide. 

 

[allanyed]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:37 PM, RossR said:

Should the items that I pointed to the photo be served?

Hi Ross

 

Rigging on a Spanish ship like your Diana may be different, but FWIW drawings of bowsprit collars in James Lees' The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War show all of them to be served.   The gammoning was not.

 

The differences in how each nation did things on these ships is really interesting.  In the drawing you posted, it appears that the dolphin striker is somehow coming out of the bottom of the bowsprit cap which might actually  weaken it.  When they first came out in the RN, which was about the time the Mahonesa Diana was launched, they were square in cross section and nailed to the foreside of the cap.  Some years later when they were fitted with jaws they were secured to the aft side of the cap. 

Allan

Edited August 30, 2023 by allanyed

[RossR]

Allen 
 

Thanks for the great info.  Always appreciate your help.  

Edited August 28, 2023 by RossR

[RossR]

I spent quite a bit of time in the shipyard the last week.  I finally finished putting together my Serv-O-Matic and started fooling around with that a little bit.  I also started working on the chain plate.  I don't care for the single brass wire that the kit came with for chain plate.  I am going to use the instructions from my US Brig Syren that I have on the shelf as the basis for the chain plate on this model.  I need to work out exactly how long the various components will be, but I started putting together some jigs for making various length components.  I will be using dark annealed wire.  

 

Most of my time was spent working on the stern.  The kit came with a large decorative piece of photo etched brass for the stern.  I didn't like the look of that much brass on the ship.  I decided to use some left over planking materials and the scrappers I purchased from Artesania Latina to make some trim for the lights on the stern.  I added two other pieces of trim above and below the decorative scroll design on the photo etched brass piece.  I still need to fill in a gap between the two trim pieces on the top, and touch up the paint after that.  I am very happy with how this turned out. 

 

 

 

 

The bottom piece of trim is made 2mm x 5mm piece of basswood.  To get that piece to match to curve of the stern I needed to pre-bend the piece.  In the past I have struggled to successfully bend planks using heat.  I think I haven't been patient enough.  I didn't want to soak these because I thought it would distort the the grooves that I carved into the piece.  I decided I needed to give using heat another try.  I used a wood burning tool of my daughter's as the head source and took my time.  I was able to match the curve of the stern without soaking the piece.   I think this will give me confidence to start using heat more for bending planks.  

 

I will be continuing to work on the chain plate and finishing up the bowsprit in the next couple of weeks.  I will also need to make some decisions on the gallery lights on the sides of the ship.  I may attempt to build these from scratch instead of using the metal components that came with the kit.  The way the stern has turned out gives me a little confidence in trying to build something myself.  

 

[RossR]

It has been awhile since my last update.  I haven’t had much time in the shipyard lately. My daughter’s soccer season has keep us busy. I did have some time to start fabricating the galleries from scratch.   I didn’t like the way the kit provided pieces fit.  
 

 

I built these new upper and bottom pieces by cutting pieces out of some thin basswood and glueing them together.   A little filing and sanding and I am getting close.   Hopefully I can finest these up in the next few days.   
 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by RossR

[Javelin]

Considering the great work on the rest of the hull, I'm happy to see that you're upgrading those galleries. Will definately be an improvement.

[RossR]

Here is my attempt at scratch building the gallery.  I did use the brass provided by the kit for the dividers between the pains of glass.  

 

[RossR]

I have my bowsprit mostly assembled and have started attaching the various rigging components.  I am pretty happy with how it is coming together for the most part.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One area where I am not satisfied is on the jib boom.  I tried to create a closed loop of served rope that would be seized to a block and the jib boom to attach the block.  I struggled creating the splice.  As an alternative I used a section of served rope and created an S shape with one loop of the S around the block and the other loop around the boom.  I then seized the ends of each loop along with the middle section of the S between the block and the boom.  I am not happy with the result.  The section where the rope is seized looks clunky and not very clean.  I will likely look to replace these blocks before the rigging begins.  Hopefully I can get better at the splice needed to create the closed loop, or I may try using the technique illustrated on post #2111 and #2113 of Archjofo's build log for his La Creole French Corvette.

 

His rigging is stunning.  I doubt I will ever produce results as good, but his work provides something to strive for.  

 

 

 

 

[dunnock]

Great that you are taking the time to serve ropes. It will add a lot of authenticity to your build.

David