HMS Diana 1794 by DaveBaxt - Caldercraft - 1:64

[DaveBaxt]

After reading several blogs on this beautiful ship I couldn't resist removing her from the box and taking a look at whats on offer. After the issues I had building the Endeavour ( I am still working on the rigging) the first thing I looked at was the plywood keel and to my pleasant surprise there was only a slight twist at the bow. Instead of using the  brackets supplied by the kit for making the initial building board (these were not completely square) I built myself one out of MDF. Once the keel was placed into this and dry fitted the decks  everything looks to have squared up nicely including the bow section.

                    I would already like to thank a number of members including Dunock,DavidEN and BeefWellington for there considerable help in pointing out a number of issues with the initial build including the cutwater, the angle of the bowsprit, removal of the section of the false keel to allow some of the lower deck to be planked. The position of the mizzen mast and again it was necessary to remove another section of the keel. It was also mentioned that the first gun port from aft will fall foul of number 3 bulkhead 

         These are all issues I will need to address before gluing takes place but intend to hold fire whilst rigging the Endeavour and given time hopefully will be able to figure out the best coarse of action moving. Here is some photos of major patys dry fitted. Notice already I have broken off a number of the upper deck supports. Not a great start.

 

 

 

Another reason I chose to build this model is due to being the proud owner of The AOTS series and therefore will adhere to this as close as possible and perhaps consult bothe James lees and Lavery for anything which needs further clarity.One thing which I have notice with the this Caldercraft kit is the sizes of the masts, which are the same as the Endeavor. Although it is once again my intention of building the masts from sqaure boxwood stock, I notice that the according to AOTSD the main,fore, mizzen and bowsprit should be 11.1mm,9.7mm,7.3mm and 11.1mm consecutively . So I currently only have boxwood up 10mm thick. So I will need to order some 12mm thick for this job.

 I am still not sure whether or not I need to make a rabbet or not and to also replace the stem with boxwood. At present I am unsure of the drawing if I need to add a walnut keel and stern post too, or I actually need to cut into No 3 bulkehead to allow the line up of No 1 gunport or can I just move the gunport at a later date. Any advice in this area would be appreciated.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

I can see from other builds that cutting a rabbet is well worth it and also see that removing a section of the plywood stem and stern and replacing this with a more suitable material such as boxwood is prefereable and as I have some of this in stock will probably give this a go too. Deciding where the best place to remove plywood stem is yet to be decided. As regards the rabbet and how this is best achieved and wondering if it acheivable using  a milling machine but think this would be difficult using such a machine. Can the use of a Dremel router attachment and Dremel achieve better results or is the use of a plain old wood chisel be just as effective. Just a few things going on in my mind before I start again.

[DavidEN]

Congrats on starting your Diana Dave. That will keep you busy for a while. I relocated my gunports to avoid the bulkheads but I do not think that I would recommend this approach as it caused all manner of problems down the line and you will have to shift a whole lot of other items to compensate for the new gunport locations. Remember for the keel that you will probably have to add some more material to increase the depth as once you have completed the planking and coppering there is not much left to hold on to.

 

Regards,

David

[AJohnson]

Another lovely Diana underway, I'll be following along David. 🤓

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Andrew and David for your kind words of support. I think I am going to need a lot of it on this one. Regards changing the position of the bulkhead to accomodate the gun port. I am wondering if it would be best to fit new bulkheads either side of the gun port or can I do what Beef Wellington has done and just add some material at the side  to support the planks . This is definately going to take some figurering out. As it is quite some time since there have been any completed Diana's, I don,t suppose they have changed the design slightly or is that just wishfull thinking ha ha . I have yet to check the gun port templates before I start with any glueing.  

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, DavidEN said:

Remember for the keel that you will probably have to add some more material to increase the depth as once you have completed the planking and coppering there is not much left to hold on to.

Hi David,

I am not sure I understand this David.  The keel on a 38, based on the scantlings in David Steel in The Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture was 18 inches deep.  Add to this the false keel which was 6 inches thick, this is about 0.38". The garboard was about 7 inches thick at the rabbet on a 38 but shaped to match the rabbet so took up closer to 5 inches.  The copper would be paper thin at scale.  This leaves over a 9/32" of keel exposed so I am not sure why there would be a problem holding the model on a building board or a clamp.  

Allan

Edited March 1, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

I am not sure if I am coppering but will probably do another layer of planking using walnut. According to the instructions the second layer of walnut is 1 mm thick so the two layers  are a total of 2.5mm. The clearance under the bulkheads is 6mm so that would give me a depth of 3.5mm so perhaps this is what David is referring to but unsure. It is my intention to paint the bottom of the ship with copper and vedigris and attempt to create something similar to this rather than using the tiles which have out of scale nail heads on them.

Edited March 1, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[dunnock]

Congratulations David, on starting your build of Diana. I'll be following along with interest.

I'm with DavidEN on the gunports. I adjusted their position to miss bulkhead 3 but there are consequences further down the line. Particularly affected are the channels and positioning of shrouds, which in turn affects the quarter deck gun placements.

 

David

 

[DaveBaxt]

25 minutes ago, dunnock said:

Congratulations David, on starting your build of Diana. I'll be following along with interest.

I'm with DavidEN on the gunports. I adjusted their position to miss bulkhead 3 but there are consequences further down the line. Particularly affected are the channels and positioning of shrouds, which in turn affects the quarter deck gun placements.

 

David

 

Welcome aboard David. I am really happy you and DavidEN  and not forgetting Andrew are following on with my attempt at the HMS Diana. Its a case of working out the best approach of moving the bulkhead out of the way or part of it rather than moving the gun port and when is the best time to do this. I think Beef Wellington had a good idea by adding pieces of plywood onto the bulkhead so that when gun port is cut out then the bulkhead can be cut away too. without loosing any strength in the planking, although I worry about loosing the profile of the hull if I do this. I would like to get this done sooner if I can, that is before the planking is started but unsure if I can. Perhaps Beef Wellington spots this log and would be kind enough to add any comments  as anyone else would be welcome.

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Dave, glad to see another Diana build get started, I must confess that I have been less than active recently (both online and in the shipyard!), so I'm sure you'll finish well before me.  One general comment that I'm sure you're considering but worth repeating is that the dimensions of kit parts and plans, NMM plans and AOTS diagrams are not completely consistent, so compromise and estimation is needed.  Thinking well ahead will save a lot of pain.

 

Couple of specific comments on the topics raised above:

• Keel - David (DAvidEN) is spot on with his comment on the profile of the keel.  This is easily addressed once the hull has been planked which is really only when you can see what is needed.  Without building up the depth of the keel, the profile is much too shallow and will not look correct.
• Stern post - will be easier early on to adapt the sternpost to more prototypical dimensions if thats a path you want to go down (wider at the top, tapering to the keel) rather than the consistent 5mm thickness dictated by the keel former.
• Gunport alignment - the ports follow the alignment of the frames, which means the mid-ships ports will be perpendicular to the keel, and those toward the stem and stern will be perpendicular to the hull so AOTS can help with this.  As for placement, adjusting the foremost frame as described above is pretty straightforward if you decide to go down that route.  From memory, I seem to recall looking to directionally follow the plans with equidistant ports (except for where the steps are).

All the best.

 

Jason

[DaveBaxt]

I have had a closer look at the Caldercraft drawings and think sheet one is to be used as a template for securing the position of the gunports but could be wrong. The sizes of the drawings coincide with the length of the false keel, however the slots for the bulheads are slightly out the further aft you go but only by 1mm. The only gunports which fall foul of the bulkheads can be seen as No 4 and No 5 bulkheads when using the caldercraft drawings.

           I have marked the sections of material on the bulkheads which will need to be removed after planking.  After two layers of planking are glued in place, hopefully I can get in there and remove these sections. I am not sure if I need to glue any material acting as supports , perhaps this would make it more difficult to break off. when needed

         Also I have been looking at the positions of the channels and apart from the fore channel being slightly forward related to their mast the other two seem correct. However I also need to check if the shrouds miss the top gunports.

        I have not checked any of the gun port positions againt AOTS Diana as perhaps this will only complicate matters. I hope I am not wrong. At the end of the day I just want the model to look good and her fittings historically accurate as best as possible. I would of course like to get the sizes of the masts and rigging as accurate as possible.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

14 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Hi Dave, glad to see another Diana build get started, I must confess that I have been less than active recently (both online and in the shipyard!), so I'm sure you'll finish well before me.  One general comment that I'm sure you're considering but worth repeating is that the dimensions of kit parts and plans, NMM plans and AOTS diagrams are not completely consistent, so compromise and estimation is needed.  Thinking well ahead will save a lot of pain.

 

Couple of specific comments on the topics raised above:

• Keel - David (DAvidEN) is spot on with his comment on the profile of the keel.  This is easily addressed once the hull has been planked which is really only when you can see what is needed.  Without building up the depth of the keel, the profile is much too shallow and will not look correct.
• Stern post - will be easier early on to adapt the sternpost to more prototypical dimensions if thats a path you want to go down (wider at the top, tapering to the keel) rather than the consistent 5mm thickness dictated by the keel former.
• Gunport alignment - the ports follow the alignment of the frames, which means the mid-ships ports will be perpendicular to the keel, and those toward the stem and stern will be perpendicular to the hull so AOTS can help with this.  As for placement, adjusting the foremost frame as described above is pretty straightforward if you decide to go down that route.  From memory, I seem to recall looking to directionally follow the plans with equidistant ports (except for where the steps are).

All the best.

 

Jason

Welcome aboard Jason . I am sure your help will be invaluble .Sorry I missed this post and I thank you for itemising each problem so hopefully a will not miss anything out.Mmay I ask, when you say adjust the formost frame did you mean adding building up the pieces to maintain the strength as you did on your Diana log rather than move  the gunport. I am now planning on replacing both stem and stern and creating a rabbet for the first row of planking.I was not aware of a problem with where the steps are located so will take a closer look. Thank you again Jason for your help. It is very much appreciated.             

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

Sorry, I was not entirely clear.  There is no issue with the area where the steps are, I did however make a silly mistake by placing the larger gap in the wrong spot (its all in my log in gory detail!).  As for the foremost frame, yes, I strngthened with the added ply to allow the gunport placement to be correct (in my judgement 🙂 ).

[DaveBaxt]

13 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Sorry, I was not entirely clear.  There is no issue with the area where the steps are, I did however make a silly mistake by placing the larger gap in the wrong spot (its all in my log in gory detail!).  As for the foremost frame, yes, I strngthened with the added ply to allow the gunport placement to be correct (in my judgement 🙂 ).

Thank you again jason for Clarifying regards the Steps. During my time finishing off  the rigging on my Endeavour build it id my intension to read your Diana Log together with DaveEN and Dunnock log from start to finish before actually making any headway witn the Diana in the hope that I will make a few correct disicions rather than regret any major mistakes. I still have a lot of stuff to do on the Endeavour , so it will be some time before I can really get started.

[DaveBaxt]

Bought some Tools, mainly chisels for an attempt at cutting a rabbet with variable angles/ shapes. Alaso some practice on walnut sheet and hopefully I got the hang of using these very sharp chisels. I am a little concerned regarding the thickness of the walnut as it is 0.25mm undersize of the 5mm thickness of the false keel plywood and I am wondering if this will cause a problem down the line . Unfortunately I do not have any 5 mm boxwood in stock so thought I would see if Timberline https://shop.exotichardwoods.co.uk/ can supply me with some together with 11mm for the masts as I haven't got any of this either.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[dunnock]

Cutting the rabbet is well worth the effort even if, like me you don't get the engles completely right. Those chisels look nice Dave. Where did you buy them?

David 

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, dunnock said:

Cutting the rabbet is well worth the effort even if, like me you don't get the engles completely right. Those chisels look nice Dave. Where did you buy them?

David 

 

 

Thank you David for your input. The chisels are made by Kirschen but I only bought 2 of these which are 1.5mm wide there are a few more of these but are sold seperately. The 3 chisel set in a box are made by Veritas which has a very good name. Both types were bought from Axminister tools here in the UK. 

 https://www.axminstertools.com/hand-tools/chisels

Edited March 12, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

I would just like to add a side note regarding sourcing boxwood for Stem/cutwater and stern post and as I am also looking for 11mm thick boxwood for the masts I decided to give Timberline a call . They have been kind enough to cut the 5mm thickness from their origonal 6mm stock without any extra costs due to buying from them before. So hope it is ok to add this thank you to my build log. I think I have pretty much all I need now to proceed. I just need to find the time away from the Endeavour rigging which I am finding very time consuming. However I suppose that is what the hobby is all about.

[DaveBaxt]

I have made a start on the rabbet, at least on the keel but not on the stem as I am still waiting for my Boxwood to arrive. I found the rabbet quite difficult and ended up with the rabbet wider than what was required, due to the chisel following the grain and lifting the edges of the plywood keel. Hopefully it won't matter too much when finished. I marked the rabbet using a Veritas marking wheel which I use for marking my masts from square stock. \i found working on walnut easier to cut the rabbet and keep within the markings. I am not sure how far to take the rabbet to the stern post  as I will be taking off some off the material for the deadwood area. I will probably leave the stern post off until I have finished both 1st and 2nd planking and cut a straight edge I think.. 

 

I have also made a start on rounding of the edges a bit so as to give the first planking more area to glue. Before doing so I blacked the edge with permanent marker so that I wouldn,t  remove too much material. I can finalize this better once the bulheads are glued into position

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

The supplied Maple strips for the Deck turns out to be Tanganyka and not maple as listed which I have not used before so thought I would give it a try on the lower deck which will mostly not be seen. This turned out to not be a great success. Firstly  I  used permanent marker for staining the edges of the tanganyka strips which worked great on Walnut for simulating calking between the planks . I then used 2 parts shelac 1 part alcohol to seal the wood . Unfortunately not only has the ink leached into the grain but I am not sure I like the fleck in the grain of the tanganyka  to start with which is totally out of scale too.

Here are a couple of photos of the mess.

Conclusion. First off get rid of the Tanganyka . Second try and source some 1mm x 4 mm Maple strips. Not so easy when ready made here in the uk. I have never used maple before but looking at samples  of local suppliers  the grain looks to be too large  for 1:64 however a few modellers have used this in the past . Alternatively I could easily source some 1mm thick x 100mm wide sheets and cut them myself on a Proxxon FET saw but  I think there could be a lot of waste 

               Then there is the other problem of using either the permenant marker and shellac together or perhaps its the mixing with alcohol. Perhaps I should return to using sand and sealer instead of shellac or try something else to simulate the calking. I am inclined to go back to what has for me been tried and tested and use walnut for the decking which is readily available and always looks good when sand and sealer is used in combination with the permenant marker. I have also used charcoal or pencil lead but do not think it makes as good a job as the marker pen. 

          No doubt I will need to carry out more tests before on the decking before I finally decide which is the best coarse of action. 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Dave, have fun with the experimentation.  Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a comment on your wood selection dilemma.  The Tanganika supplied with my kit also had terrible grain which prompted me to go down the maple route.  I had sourced maple from Cornwall Model Boats, and the initial supply provided was generally OK, but the edges were rough and did require tidying up - there were also quite a few unacceptable strips.  In retrospect, I did not order enough at that time and underestimated wastage/QA failures, and had to purchase more to finish the decking on the quarterdeck and foc's'l.  Despite purchasing again from CMBs, I had to make multiple purchases as I got some really poor quality wood.  In retrospect I wish I had ordered enough at the start to ensure consistency and quality between the decks.  I also found that the wood provided often wasn't even maple - and can be further confused with the various species (hard maple being desireable, the soft maple having a much more pronounced grain).  That may well have been a covid era problem that is now resolved.

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Hi Dave, have fun with the experimentation.  Hope you don't mind me jumping in with a comment on your wood selection dilemma.  The Tanganika supplied with my kit also had terrible grain which prompted me to go down the maple route.  I had sourced maple from Cornwall Model Boats, and the initial supply provided was generally OK, but the edges were rough and did require tidying up - there were also quite a few unacceptable strips.  In retrospect, I did not order enough at that time and underestimated wastage/QA failures, and had to purchase more to finish the decking on the quarterdeck and foc's'l.  Despite purchasing again from CMBs, I had to make multiple purchases as I got some really poor quality wood.  In retrospect I wish I had ordered enough at the start to ensure consistency and quality between the decks.  I also found that the wood provided often wasn't even maple - and can be further confused with the various species (hard maple being desireable, the soft maple having a much more pronounced grain).  That may well have been a covid era problem that is now resolved.

Jason  I am more than happy to hear your comments as two or more heads is better than one. At the moment CMB do not have any maple strips in of any size other than the 1 mm x 100mm sheets hence the comments regards making my own. There are 60 mtrs of 1 x 4 mm tanganyka strips in the kit, so I think that could take me some time to cut into strips and this is something I have never tried so unsure how much wastage on top of that. I might gave CMB a call and see if they intend to get any more maple in the near future or perhaps they are having problems sourcing it too. I already have some walnut in stock but would just need a bit more to do the job, so depending upon CMB replies I might end up going down that route. I do like the sound of using maple as it seems very popular for decking. Thank you once again Jason for your help and patience. Best regards Dave.

Edited March 17, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Finally recieved the Boxwood from Timberline and made the stem/cutwater, using the origonal as a template to ensure the correct size. I also notice even whilst the false keel was sitting tightly in the base and the bottom false deck was in position it was necessary to move the front section of the keel, so that the centre line up with the first bulkhead. photo here of the bulkhead glued ito the correct position which has ensured that the stem lines up properly

 

continued the rabbet onto the stem and stern using parts 20 21 and 22 as guides for the shape of the rabbet. I then used my milling machine to machine a 1 mm slot for the bowsprit gammon lashing and two holes  for the bobstays, again using the origonal stem as a template. I then proceeded to glue all the bulkheads and stem and  the above stem and stern supports into position .

 

 

 

I am now fairly happy that the keel is straight and once the next deck is secured into position then it should be safe to remove  the workpiece from the base and frame and I am thinking about what is next. Which is how to drill a 10 mm hole  for the  bowsprit and to ensure I get the correct angle. The feint lines you can see in one of the photos is the same angle as shown on the AOTS Diana. I have already checked that this clears the figure head. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[dunnock]

Hi Dave,

Just catching up on your log.

It may be that with better wood you'll not have problems with a marker pen but thought I'd add my ten penn'orth. I've used Pigma Brush pens. It's easy to run the fine tip down the edge of the plank and not had any problems with bleeding.

 

David 

[DaveBaxt]

53 minutes ago, dunnock said:

Hi Dave,

Just catching up on your log.

It may be that with better wood you'll not have problems with a marker pen but thought I'd add my ten penn'orth. I've used Pigma Brush pens. It's easy to run the fine tip down the edge of the plank and not had any problems with bleeding.

 

David 

Thank you David I have ordered those pens and see how they react with the shellac. The pens I work with at the moment have been ok with walnut so not sure if it is the wood or the shelac that is causing them to bleed. Just as a matter of interest David, what are you using to seal your wood with? 

Edited March 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[dunnock]

I used shellac on the decking and had no problems with bleeding.

Edited March 18, 2023 by dunnock

[DaveBaxt]

6 hours ago, dunnock said:

I used shellac on the decking and had no problems with bleeding.

Good to know so will do some tests . It might even turn out to be the alcohol I mixed with the shellac, who knows! Thanks once again for your early response.

Edited March 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[No Idea]

Hi Dave I use these pens and they do not react to shellac at all so you will be safe there 👍

 

Your rabbet that you have cut though towards the stern follows the line which is more like the bearding line which would be a little lower.  Your rabbet needs to go all of the way to the stern post which also tapers the deadwood and will go the full length of the garboard plank.  It's a simple correction and I have to say what great work you are doing on your build! 

[DaveBaxt]

11 hours ago, No Idea said:

Hi Dave I use these pens and they do not react to shellac at all so you will be safe there 👍

 

Your rabbet that you have cut though towards the stern follows the line which is more like the bearding line which would be a little lower.  Your rabbet needs to go all of the way to the stern post which also tapers the deadwood and will go the full length of the garboard plank.  It's a simple correction and I have to say what great work you are doing on your build! 

Thank you No Idea for you input and welcome aboard.  I could be wrong and this is my first effort at contructing a rabbet but I thought that the rabbet would follow the line of the two pieces of wood supplied in the kit which gives additional support for the first planking. This I believe is also the bearded line I used these pieces to mark where the rabbet would go. I still need to work out how much material I need to remove (deadwood area ) and I might have to adjust this somewhat depending upon how the first layer of planks lie..Hopfully it will turn out like this.

There  was no seperate stern post on this kit so I removed a section of the plywood and need to make one  as per AOTS Diana.At the top edge of the rabbet is about 1 mm from where the stern post will be and works out is the thickness of the second planking. Hope I am making sense. Best regards Dave 

Edited March 19, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[No Idea]

Hi Dave - the last picture that you posted is very clear and it looks like your work is spot on 👍

 

Really good luck with your build - Mark