HMS Diana 1794 by DaveBaxt - Caldercraft - 1:64

[allanyed]

Sorry Dave but do you mean the 84" (I know it is hard to see on the small drawing attachment)  which in THIS case is from the aft edge of the aft most gun port to the aft perpendicular which I believe is the aft side of the rudder post at the load water line.  

Cheers

Allan

Edited July 3, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

Sorry for the delay Allan in replying to your query regarding  the 84" dimension and ses I did mean the 84" dimension. I have at least got time and enough measurements to study this further with calculator in hand ( do people even still use these) in between carrying out the joys of planking such a large hull, at least for my previous standard compared to that of the Bounty and Endeavour. Especially as I will be changing from boxwood (seen) to walnut (covered). Another first for me. I am considering 120mm length planks to use as little waste as possible with the boxwood and yet be realistically long enough for 1/64 scale. In the past I have used full length strips without any breaks and usually got two lengths out of each strip. With this hull without any breaks would mean quite a lot of wastage.

              Some more boxwood will  hopefully arrive tomorrow from https://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/?s=boxwood&post_type=product and I now have a number of different.  My approach will be to complete under the wale down to the keel first then once I have hopefully mastered the technique then move onto above the wale and around the gun ports which may or nit be problamatic. After fitting of the 0.5mm thick black strake followed by 1mm x 3mm walnut for the rest of the wale and the sanded and sealed with shelac, followed by Adrimalty ( Caldercraft ) dull black acrylic watered down with a few drops of thinners and improver using an airbrush once again.

 

Y

You can see from the above photos that I had a slight accident with the stem and broke off the top half, so I will need to glue this back on at some stage but might as well wait until I have finished planking and secured the hole for the Bowsprit mast before doing so. On removing the masking tape I also realized I had missed a bit of black on the wales. There is always one. Oh well hopefully I can touch this up.

Next up will be the second planking and hoping I can make a good job of this.

Edited July 4, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

Hi David

It is hard to tell, but did you taper the wales at the bow?  They taper in thickness to match that of the other planking so they fit in the rabbet properly without having to make a notch as some folks do.    Couple photos from Preble Hall follow.  Hard to see but if you look closely you can see how the ends match the surrounding planks to fit into the rabbet.

Allan

Edited July 4, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Allan for your remarks regarding the main wale. Unfortunately I did not. I was unaware that the were thiiner at the bow as are the other planking and I just followed the instructions.I read through Peter Goodwins book on the subject of the main wale prior to adding the wale to my model and although he mentions  the black strake being thinner , I did not see the anthing regarding the wale planks being thinner at the bow. It was not my intention  to cut another rabbet for the second planking, especially as it is only 0.7mm thick. However please let me know where I can find out about the thinning of planks for future reference and building.

[allanyed]

Hi Dave,

I really do not remember where I read about this in the past but I do remember discussing this years ago at Preble Hall with Grant Walker as well as seeing this in their collection of contemporary models.  They all seem to be tapered in thickness for the last 5 to 10 feet or so.   

Allan

Edited July 4, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

 I am sure you are correct Allan  and I do not doubt you. However I feel that for this model it is just a fraction too late so will continue as I have . However it is something that I will try and remember for my next model and plan within good timing to achieve exactly that. Thank you once again for your input it is always apreciated.Best rergards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

I have been making steady progress with the second layer of planking and completed the first 2 of the 4 zones below the main wale. This has been mainly 0.7mm thick boxwood above the water line and I am now into my 3rd  zone and have started laying in some of the 1mm thick walnut strakes which needs a bit of soaking for 20 mins prior to bending around the bow. .My plan was to go from 2 x 4.5mm wide boxwood giving me a width of approximately 9mm, to 1x 5mm and 1 x 4mm walnut which also gives me 9mm, however the walnut strips are quite a bit oversize so needed a shaping to remove any gaps. when the different woods lie next to each other. I continued this method untill all the planks were below the water line and continued with walnut only.

                  I have also glued the boxwood stern post into position at this point

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                 I have also given some thought to the copper plates and have decided to not use the ones supplied by Caldercraft and  use them for experimenting with only. I have ordered some photo etched plates from Amati which seems to be the go to copper plates for a number of people other than those using copper tape. It was my original idea to just paint the bottom with copper and verdigis green to give the bottom a look of weathered copper but thanks to DavidEN I have now decided to emulate his HMS Diana and weather the copper plates using Red wine Vinegar and Miracle grow. I still need to do some experimenting using the CC supplied copper plates to find out if it is better to do these plates individually or after they have been glued to the hull. ( I think doing them individually might be a long process so might see if these can be done in groups of say 50 off the model)I also think I will use thick CA glue for securing the plates directly onto the un-treated walnut. I am not sure about sealing the wood first with Shellac as origonally thought.

I have now received the replacement copper plates from Amati and you can see from the photo that there is a big difference in the size of the nails. The Amati ones being much smaller . Infact the CC ones look more like rivets. So at the moment I am very happy with them . So far so good.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

It is great to see the new Amati plates looking like small nail punches instead of the gigantic rivets.  Hard to tell if they overlap but no matter as they do appear to be shingled properly rather than laying side by side what with having a single row of nails showing on each side.  Very good call to make the switch David

 

Allan

 

[Beef Wellington]

The boxwood is looking very nice Dave.  Other than the visual benefit of the much nicer Amati plates, the other advantage is that you can lay rows of them as a single piece if you break them carefully from the sheet.  Once glued in position, you would never know, and it can help keep the rows in line more easily....think its also quicker!

[aliluke]

I used the Amati plates for HMS Fly. As Jason says you can lay them in strips and then break them into single, double or whatever units to get the curve sometimes with just minor trimming. This is not visible and I didn't overlap them. I have seen them being overlapped on a one or two models and it seems to be messy to my eye and out of scale. My aging technique is as seen in my Fly log. Not for the faint hearted but it worked really well and, after sealing, has held up for years now.

[DaveBaxt]

11 hours ago, allanyed said:

It is great to see the new Amati plates looking like small nail punches instead of the gigantic rivets.  Hard to tell if they overlap but no matter as they do appear to be shingled properly rather than laying side by side what with having a single row of nails showing on each side.  Very good call to make the switch David

 

Allan

 

Thank you Allan. I have spent quite a lot of time on whether to use plates at all or not . The only problem I have been informed is that they are probably still slightly to thick and therefore I have been advised that it is better to not overlap them. Once I have weather the plates and from an observation view point I don,t think it will be noticed anyway. For the record I have toyed with a number of ideas including copper tape and making paper plates and soaking in shellac. All good ideas and perhaps I will try these another time. However |I thought I should at least explore this avenue at least once.

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

The boxwood is looking very nice Dave.  Other than the visual benefit of the much nicer Amati plates, the other advantage is that you can lay rows of them as a single piece if you break them carefully from the sheet.  Once glued in position, you would never know, and it can help keep the rows in line more easily....think its also quicker!

Thank you again Jason your input as always is appreciated and thanks for the tip regards working with the plates. I am still unsure whether or not to move straight onto the copper plating next or to finish the planking above the wale . I will probably follow the instructions whilst i do some experimenting with the spare Caldercraft tiles.

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, aliluke said:

I used the Amati plates for HMS Fly. As Jason says you can lay them in strips and then break them into single, double or whatever units to get the curve sometimes with just minor trimming. This is not visible and I didn't overlap them. I have seen them being overlapped on a one or two models and it seems to be messy to my eye and out of scale. My aging technique is as seen in my Fly log. Not for the faint hearted but it worked really well and, after sealing, has held up for years now.

Thank you Alister and welcome aboard. Its good to get another comformation regards laying the tiles side by side  and as I am doing this for the first time it is not without some trepidation. I am just about gettting my head around forming a plan but still unsure about gore lines and where to put them . I can see from DaviidEN , Jason and Dunnocks Diana all of the plates look symmetrical when viewing from the stem looking aft and do wonder if this just follows up from the keel of is it acheived by shaping the plates. I am hoping it will become evident once I get going.I will try and get around and take a look at your fly log and hopefully get a few more tips. Any advice or links to good articles on this would be indeed be welcome. 

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

The only problem I have been informed is that they are probably still slightly to thick and therefore I have been advised that it is better to not overlap them.

I totally agree, but thankfully with the nail punches they have they will appear to overlap unlike the original ones that came with the kit. 

Allan

 

 

[aliluke]

Hi Dave

I wouldn't normally post a photo on another persons log - feel free to ask me to delete it - but the one below isn't in my log - there is one of the stern there. It is a long time ago since I did this coppering exercise. There was trimming and, perhaps, some tiny overlaps? You can see in the photo where the top line of rivets might will have been trimmed and more severe trimming as the curve rises. i always trimmed the top of the plate not the bottom, otherwise the flow heads in the wrong way. I installed the top PVC trim at the waterline first to work up from the keel towards it, keeping the plate curves gently rising at the stem and stern. With copper tape you can trim to the waterline later but with plates I think that'd be very difficult if not impossible. In my original log someone suggested that the plates should start parallel to the waterline and then work down. This is completely wrong - parallel to the keel and then work up, keeping that rising curve going. Don't leave gaps - trim using the rivet lines as a guide. Overall my outcome is not as smooth as sanded planking but is smooth enough that it looks to eye to be completely smooth. Hope that helps?...

 

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Alistair for your input and thanks for the photo as it clearly shows what is required.Your input is always welcome. I  thought that the two top rows( the last two rows to be fitted) are to follow the water line but I got this from an old book so perhaps I could be wrong. However it is done that is clearly a nice job.

Edited July 17, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[aliluke]

Hi Dave

Yes I have seen that alternative method - top two rows of plates being parallel to the waterline. But I think that was a later technique than would apply to Diana. Perhaps the best reference to coppering in the 18thC is the coppered model of Bellona at the NNM https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66299  This stunning model was used to demonstrate the practice of copper sheathing to King George III in 1778 and definitely does not show the later method. That is reference that I used for Fly based on the AOTS of Bellona but I don't know if Fly was even coppered - it is just a look I like!

 

Also have a look at 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by aliluke

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you Alistair for clearing that up regards following the waterline was actually at a later date and now wonder what the other builders of the Diana have done. You also metioned the difficulty of trimming plates and wonder how other modellers manage them, especially the Amati ones , being photo etched, they are much thinner than the Caldercraft kit supplied ones. Even so I thought it was a matter of cutting them with a scalpe knife away from the model before gluing them. However I have since found a video on the Amati  website whereby the guy in the video runs a battern along the gore line and uses this as a guide to cut the plates. This seems like a good idea at first but think removing sections of the glued plates would leave damaged areas of wood underneath.https://www.amatimodel.com/en/how-to-copper-plate-a-model-ship-video-tutorial/

Edited July 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

.Second planking below the wale completed and an attempt to taper the stern post was made but not entirely happy with the result. Next time I will probably do this off the model and start with a thicker piece of boxwood. Next up will be the planking above the wale and I expect this to be tricky ensuring I leave a 0.5mm recess on the bottom and sides of each gun port except for the ones which have lids. Here I will make a recess on all of the gun port sides, top and bottom.

I have done a number of experiments using the spare copper plates which came with the kit. On the right there are two groups using a mixture of either white wine vinegar and ammonia and salt added to the plates after they were glued to the wood the other side were plates glued after they were treated with red wine vinegar and Miracle grow. In both cases the tiles were pickled for 30 miniutes to remove any grease etc.  I even soaked some of the tiles on the left  in brass black for just a few seconds which turned them a lot darker. I believe the process of pickling allowed the patina to work quite quickly but think that this might be a bit too much. The tiles on the left although are probably quite realistic but a bit too patchy for my taste. As yet I am not totally happy with the results so far and I am now considering air brushing the tiles once they have been glued to the hull but unsure about copper and which primer to use before using dirty downs acrylic and aged copper acrylic. I still need to do some more experiments before deciding which way to go. Any advice on the matter would be welcome

I

I am away tomorrow for a break in the Peak district to do some walking with the family . As the weather forecast is not too great, I might have to take a small project.perhaps one of the boats or the something similar with me but at the risk ending up being divorced haha.

Edited July 20, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Some progress with the second planking above the wale has been made but I  have found the boxwood I am using a lot different than my other boxwood and a bit unpredictable . This  boxwood seems to have a larger grain than boxwood previously used.and has a tendency to split, when cutting the sweeping ports and gun ports , I even tried using shellac before cutting hoping it would cut cleaner and not split so much with linited success I therefore ended up just marking the recess with a number 11 scalple blade and cutting them away from the workpiece with a sharp micro chisel.which I found easier. Perhaps if I had used a harder wood for the gun port linings ( I used lime and tanganika )  I could have cut them after gluing into position I now realise that whilst the above method worked in a fashion, it would have been much easier if I has steppped the linings and cut the second planking flush with the edges of the gun ports . I think this is a valuable lesson learned and unsure why I attempted the above method in the first place. 

        After fitting a few planks it also became evident when using 6mm planks that when reaching the top of the gun ports towards the aft end and when cuting out the piece for the gun ports it would leave the strip very thin and weak, so I therefore decided to fit a  4.5mm wide  plank in between two 6mm planks. hopefully this is a reasonable solution and does not distract on the whole.

             Oversized sections of first planking removed for quarter deck gun ports to allow for liners. I have used the templates provided for guidence as this seemed to have previously worked out for positioning of quarter galleries and for main mast shrouds when checked. See page 4.According to AOTS Diana the quarter deck bulwarks are tapered and narrower toward the top so will need to consider this when making the gun port k liners. I would also like to support the  bottom liners again using 3 mm square walnut,  even if these make life difficult when fitting the false deck lator down the line..

Edited August 9, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, DaveBaxt said:

This  boxwood seems to have a larger grain than boxwood previously used.and has a tendency to split, when cutting the sweeping ports and gun ports ,

The work still looks really fine David.   Splitting and larger grain on boxwood does sound odd.  Is this a true English buxus or a different species going by the name boxwood as was the case with Castello for period of time?

Allan

 

 

[DaveBaxt]

17 minutes ago, allanyed said:

The work still looks really fine David.   Splitting and larger grain on boxwood does sound odd.  Is this a true English buxus or a different species going by the name boxwood as was the case with Castello for period of time?

Allan

 

 

Thank you Allan for your comments regarding the Boxwood. I am unsure what type of Boxwood it is but it is not the Castello boxwood as that is the other type of boxwood I have and sourced from a different supplier here in the UK. This type is very yellow and I think it will look god when I sand it. Unfortunately I bought more than I actually needed and have quite a bit left over and it is quite expensive. Fortunately I still think it is worth the extra cost and hopefully I can utilise it somewhere else on the model and show it off as I also think it is a fine looking wood. I might have to fined another supplier of Boxwood for my next project but find it difficult for ready cut planks.

Edited August 8, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

I believe finding boxwood in any form is difficult and it is expensive.   I found small logs some years back and have hoarded it for carvings so if you have more than you need right now, be happy.

 

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

Finished off the second layer of planking and lined the gun ports. I still need to cut out the square sections for the ventilation scuttles and holes for the scuppers to complete the hull.  Next up will be the fitting of the Quarter galleries and the  stern gallery. I am still not 100% sure as to the correct position of the quarter galleries other than Jason suggestion of lining up the windows with the gun ports and the windows in the stern facia. I might even use some of the rails to see how these look when all is put together before gluing I will also probably try airbrushing the parts before assembly rather relying on masking tape to get clean edges.

[DaveBaxt]

I have decided to change tack slightly as I have decided now after looking at the more recent builds of Diana I thought now would be a good time to start coppering the bottom. As previously stated I will be using Amati plates rather than CC plates as these are thinner and more refined. So that the marked indents look like nails rather than rivets. I would like to make special thanks to DavidEN, dunnock and Ray for helping me with the following process as it was due to their help with regards Weathering , jigs and placing of gore lines etc, all of which have been of great help.

       After changing my mind several times I have decided to weather the plates first and using the same method as DavidEn using 1 part Miracle grow and 3 parts red wine vinegar. However before this process  I pickled the plates and aged them using brass black which darkened them to a similar colour to aged copper. Here using the Amati etched plates was much easier as they could be treated with large numbers and then the backs cleaned off using fine sanding paper. It is my intention to only lightly patina the plates but gradually increase the patina towards the surface to simulate what might be the case in reality but not sure if this is correct. I found after rubbing the surface of the etched plates plates with 000 wire wool and soaking in acetone for a few miniutes  then both the aging and patina would work so much quicker to get the desired effect.

    

   

    Below Plates weathered using Brass black for a few miniutes then rinsed in distilled water.

 

 

Imediately soaked in 1 part Miracle grow and 3 parts red wine vinegar for varying lengths of time between a few miniutes and a few hours then allowed to dry. The backs of the plates cleaned using fine sand paper

A few photographes of the progress.

YA

Just starting to show when vessel the riight way up.

 

Perhaps not to everyones taste however I am fairly pleased in the way it has worked out for my first attempt at fitting copper plates. Fortunately with starting at the keel most of my mistakes are out of sight and by the time the hull is visable I was starting to get the hang of it. Hopefully I wil also be able to remove some of the super glue where the glue was squeezed out between some small gaps.

   I am still hoping to blend the areas a bit better by adding a bit more patina to various places before finally sealing it all once I am happy with the result. Knowing when to stop might be key here..

Edited August 25, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Slow progress with fitting copper tiles due to holiday in Switzerland and returning with Covid so have not felt like doing much other than completing the coppering of the hull and then attaching a 1mm x 1 mm black strip for the water line then making a start on the other side. I wasn,t entirely happy with the port side gore line as such , so using a different approach I used a 6mm wide walnut strip rather than tape to ensure the correct  way the tiles would lie and butted the plates up to this strip. This appeared to work best for me but understand there are much better coppering jobs than mine out there but apart from working with hazardous chemicals and smelling super glue I am unsure of  aging the plates to this extent is something I would consider doing again.There are still a few areas such as along the stem and stern posts that require attention and  still the rudder post to do but in the main that is the copper plates complete. Few!

 

 

 

O

Once again I now draw my attention to the Stern and Quarter galleries and still wondering to how far I need to go with replacing the parts supplied with kit. I have notices a few modellers replacing several parts including the supplied brass etched windows together with some of the walnut parts with boxwood. I do have some boxwood in stock spo perhaps I will change to this but as far as the brass etched windows , as yet I have not decided which way to go. I used the ones supplied with the kit for my Endeavour and these looked fairly presentable.

Edited September 10, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

A big thanks to DavidEn, Dunnock , Beef Wellington and Ray for all the help with their fantastic  Diana Build logs and their approach to the stern and quarter galleries. I have still not managed to get it exactly right and ended up with every thing being a little too high I think .After several attempts using the parts supplied I ended up making a lot of the parts myself but thinking back I probably could have used the parts supplied but think the cast rails and some of the brass parts could have been better defined. I also used the blue paint recommended by Dunnock rather than the dark blue supplied by caldercraft. I also added an extra layer of 1mm wood to the transom and I made the tefferail using 3 mm boxwood to get the concave effect on the lower curve. I also used the brass windows and painted them white after pickling and priming all the brass parts.. 

Making tafferail out of 3 mm boxwood and shaping to take brass parts and to give a concave effect

Gluing tafferail into position

 

 

Placing decorative rails in position to line up with the position of window quarter galleries . This was rather difficult  so ended up making new window frames to hopefully look right . Below Temporary lining up of quarter galleries with stern fascia.

In

After several different checks and double checking that everything was lining up correctly .In the above photo you can see that the frame for the quarter galleries is sitting too high, so removed and replaced so that the lower edge of the quarter gallery frame lined up with the upper edge of the counter. This ensured that the windows of the stern gallery lined up with quarter gallery windows. There is however some compromise with the lining up of the bottom of the lower gun ports with the bottom of the quarter gallery windows and think this maybe due to positioning of the gun ports to fit the bloomfield cannon so that the gun barrels would lie central in within the gun ports.

 

First I glued the 0.8mm plywood back plate into position followed by the 3mm plywood top and bottom and finally the 0.8mm window fascia, also made from plywood. All these parts were eventually made rather than the supplied parts to get what I felt was a better shape.and position.

Starting to take shape. There is some more decorative rail to fit to the underneath of the quarter galleries and the upper and lower stern counter but hoping it will look presentable. Also one or two decoratie parts to fit and some touching up of paintwork, then fitting of the Tafferail to the stern.

       Gluing the stern  fascia onto the the transom has been solved by a number of ingenious ideas from previous Diana builders and due to the inceased thickness of the tafferrail (3mm) I was expecting some difficulty with bending the stern facia into position and I thought the use of heavy gauge rubber bands would be sufficient to bend the stern fascia into position. I ended up with a bit of overkill using a combination of clamps and rubber bands. I also thought of using appoxy resin but only had 5 minute 

setting time at hand so ended up using ordinary PVA glue so hopefully this will be strong enough.The upper deck supports definately came in hand as did the very large rubber bands.

 

   Unfortunately I have made several mistakes and have become quite frustated with this section of the build, fortunately I think the mistakes are hopefully cosmetic and nothing too major. Although my Diana is nowhere near the standard of the previous Diana builds as my skill levels are somwhat under the very high standards of  the many experts on this forums. Hopefully  the result is still quite presentable because, as of this  moment ,after what I feel has been a long time.I do not feel inclined to change anything on this section of the build for the time being. Perhaps I could return to this at a later date and replace the  decorative strips using something more appropriate than the ready made walnut strip I had in stock. I do have some boxwood which would  be better suited and using shapers for the required profiles. This is what I intend to do with the rails running along the hull . I have decided against adding the ships name to the upper stern counter as I understand this was not the pracice for this period but could be wrong. 

    

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Theodosius]

I'm not sure jet, if I became a fan of your heavy copper-wethering, but I do like all the reast of your beautiful build model! 

[DaveBaxt]

34 minutes ago, Theodosius said:

I'm not sure jet, if I became a fan of your heavy copper-wethering, but I do like all the reast of your beautiful build model! 

Thank you Theodosius for your coment .Yes I think I went a bit overboard with the weathering and tried to  be a bit too reralistic. If I am honest I am not sure if I would use copper plates again as I still believe the nails on the Amati plates are still too big for the scale. I have heard a number of modellers using paper plates dipped in shellac. I have also been doing some experimenting airbrushing acrylic ( aged copper and verdigris) and thought I might try this instead. I think the verdigris look is a bit like marmite tou either love or hate it. 

[DaveBaxt]

I have sepent the last couple of weeks replacing the different walnut rails supplied by Caldercaft with 2.7mm square boxwwod and made the the scrolls out of 1.5mm thick boxwood veneer. This has been my first attempt at carving using both 1.5mm Vee chisel and a 1.5 mm gouge. Not too bad but I still could do with a bit more practice. I also used Amatis shapers to get what I thought looked a pretty good profile of the rails but not as accurate as depicked in the AOTS book. I did try and make my own shapers out of safety razors but they did not turn out as good as the Amati shapers or by some fellow modellers on MSW.I also made up the fenders from 2mm boxwood sheet, which I already had in stock.

I have followed the Caldercraft instructions as per fitting of the upper sheer rails but have fiited the rails at the channels and left out sections of this rails to allow for the positions of the fore and main channels. I have two more rails to do to fit on to the hull which is the smallest of the rails which are the quarter deck and focastle drift rails. I have tried using 1mm square boxwood for these but think this is too small. So I have ordered some 1.5mm and 1.8mm square boxwood to see which looks the better and whilst I wait for this to arrive, I can move onto a number of jobs which I have put on the back burner for one reason or another and I need to return to these to finish off the work on the hull. This work is mainly the sweep ports, ventilation holes and scuppers.

             Once again I will be following with the Caldercraft instructions and moving onto the head rails and what I also think will be another daunting task.

Edited October 4, 2023 by DaveBaxt