thread for a pond yacht

[Mark Pearse]

Hi everyone

 

I am doing some repair work on an antique pond yacht. It's a full sized small yacht rather than a scale model, this is important because I'm trying to find thread similar to some that's on the model, as opposed to a scale version of something.

 

She's a great model, my estimate is 1900-1914, the hull is about 107cm, & the bowsprit adds about 50cm.

 

In fact she's difficult to take a reasonable photo with a phone, but there's one below to whet your appetite. Unfortunately the original finish was removed, it would have been almost black. I can see that it looks good like this, & I am not doing a restoration, just repairs.

 

One of the lines that is incomplete is the mainsheet. It's about 1.5-1.6mm diameter & quite white. It's like a classic 3-strand rope. It's soft & is probably cotton.

 

 

Another one is what has been used for standing rigging, definitely not the original, but perhaps 30-50 years old anyway. I'm not replacing it, just matching it for rigging. In its weave, it looks like vb cord (ie: Venetian blind cord).

 

I did some hunting on the forum in general & found some ok leads...but not quite the same thing. This is 3 strand, not a more complex weave, & it's quite white.

 

If anyone has seen something very close, & they recall where it was from, I would greatly appreciate any tips.

 

much appreciated, 

 

Mark

 

[Jim Lad]

Good to hear from you, Mark. That looks like a very nice old model and well worth putting some work into.

 

I don't know any specific sources, but it might be worth trying an upholsterer - the kind that does old furniture; they have all sorts of threads and cords.

 

John

 

 

[Keith Black]

 Mark, why don't you contact our approved vendor, Ropes of Scale.

 

 https://ropesofscale.com

[allanyed]

23 hours ago, Mark Pearse said:

It's a full sized small yacht rather than a scale model

Hi Mark

She really is a pretty old thing!   Probably just me, but your photos of the vessel and the line itself looks like a scale model, not a full sized yacht that you mention.   Large scale to be sure, but it looks to be more or less 1 meter long as you mention.  Assuming the 1.5mm diameter line you show would be about 2.5 inches in circumference at full size (20mm dia), the scale seems to be about 1:12 not 1:1.    Still, an interesting model that you are lucky to have.

Allan

Edited February 28, 2023 by allanyed

[Keith Black]

13 hours ago, Mark Pearse said:

I am doing some repair work on an antique pond yacht.

 Mark, I've not seen a pond yacht that didn't have a lead keel. Beautiful old model. 

[mgdawson]

13 hours ago, Mark Pearse said:

 

 

Hi Mark

 

That looks like one of the pond boats they used to sail in Sydney around 1900, I know there was a 2 foot class, not sure what other classes there were.

 

I see you're in Sydney, I'd suggest a visit to the Sydney Flying Squadron at Kiribilli, in the bar upstairs restaurant area they have a 2 footer on display along with a lot of other memorabilia. I believe the photo below is the same model but it's now rigged. The restaurant is called Foys after Mark Foys who founded the SFS, yes that Mark Foys. If you go down about lunchtime on a Saturday you'll also see the classic 18' skiff replicas rigging up, most of them are modern molded construction but the Brittania replica uses the original batten-seam construction. (Last race of the season, 25th March)

 

http://www.openboat.com.au/uploads/8/1/9/7/81975644/img-1003-2_orig.jpeg

 

I picked up some white cotton 2mm rope from Rope Galore, bit thicker than you're after but it may suffice if you can't get any smaller. They do mail order or they're right next to Bankstown airport.

 

I see they also do coloured 2mm polyester vb cord.

[mgdawson]

Damn, tried to paste the image and it pasted the url, see if this works.

[Roger Pellett]

For your running rigging I would see if I could find some old fishing line.  Here in the USA, an ideal rigging line is Cuttyhunk Hard Twisted linen line.  This was sold up into the 1980’s.  See if you can find similar line manufactured before the advent of synthetic materials.  The line is twisted like rope not braided.Maybe there is a stash somewhere in Australia.

 

Roger

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Cuttyhunk Hard Twisted linen line

It was excellent at simulating scale rope that matched its diameter in scale.  I believe this is in the NRJ:  the owner died and his son-in-law got the company and loaded the inventory into a dumpster.  I remember because that was so astounding stupid.  It is not at the degree of the housekeeper who used Donal McKay's half models as kindling, but it is in that memory bank.  I think an NRG member rescued a bit of it but not near as much as he should have.   The white line looks like Cuttyhunk to me.  

 

The bow looks like a cutter.   The stern and flush deck looks pond yacht.

 

I suspect that all of the rigging line was "make do" at the time, rather than the builder looking for scale.  I would match the colors,  but do the best I could using current "make do" material.

[Keith Black]

There's a spool of Cuttyhunk on eBay. I have no idea if the size or color would work.

 

 https://www.ebay.ca/itm/134414376717?hash=item1f4bb89f0d:g:RgoAAOSwaTNjxYJ~&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4FNgsZTtECZQ5GVwwAijJZ0%2Buwzbw4dW3GlRxfNEn6ogc3oGqSIVzK8I2ztlYp2SV5Mg5yMIMYysNh9bf1Cc8QEAY3YUCSElHaX84%2FZ6z4eHAhyc33XP3Jhzeg65kcmvM7dP3PWA5suwHpPI8zbvztfNnsQtKTzh3r3gU9zDFUYQ%2FOZRR33oC35SGrYRCanbJUi3XxT%2BYf5TFm1XvUC%2BP3NvSOnIVb7sbQJbqwcq54FLOaeApNnu59IALQMdZIojoByEA5EnZhIqBEXVtysBaKCldSbiOy657gZeUOndsMfa|tkp%3ABFBMirXA4dJh

[Roger Pellett]

I  bought several spools from Model Shipways way back in the Yellow Box Days. Rob Napier has a stash of it that he uses to restore models.

Roger

[Mark Pearse]

Wow, thank you everyone for the assistance. This is a huge help.

 

John, good to hear from you as well. Thanks that's  great idea & turns out I have a mate who's an upholsterer.

 

Keith, thank you, & yes I tried Ropes of Scale (after searching this forum, the name came up quickly). They don't seem to have white of the same weave. Their 'cable laid rope' is exquisite, but more complex in the weave. This is actually 3 strand, so visually quite simple. The hull might have been ballasted inside the hull or perhaps screwed onto the underside of the keel. The hull is screwed to the stand & I haven't removed it to look. The shape of the hull is 19C in yachting design, a real 'lead mine', or that's what I've heard them called: narrow beam with very deep hulls. It's quite hard to photograph her without distortion but I'll attach a bow shot lower down. Another option is that she was only sailed in light conditions, the 'lead mine' boats are known to heel quite a bit as the hull shape doesn't have much volume to support a lot of ballast nor much buoyancy righting moment from hull shape.

 

Hi Mark, good to meet you. Thanks for the link to Ropes Galore, that's also a very close match, & I can't resist the cheesy business name. Yes I've read a lot on the Balmain Bugs, which raced in the harbour for prize money, but I think (going from memory here, Steve Crewe's book on them is the one to read) that they started in that type from maybe the 30s. This model is (my estimate) 1900-1914. I believe that she would not be capable of sailing in the harbour without risking losing her. And I thin she was sailed for pleasure rather than races - why? There is no evidence that she could be tacked quickly. The Balmain Bugs were tacked in split second as they were self tacking, they just rowed up behind & pushed the boom across. This one has 2 jibs & a staysail - & only the one traveller bar for the headsails. I think that they had only one sheet, & the boat was set up for one tack across a pond (like Centennial Park, which was a popular place for it). The 2 foot Bugs also had a mast 8 or 10' tall, much larger than this.

 

Hi Roger, thank you as well. I looked up Cuttyhunk line & it is beautiful stuff. A bit thin, but a great idea. The one on the model is probably cotton, it is probably softer than linen. And I looked up the company you mentioned, they have one quite good, just a bit thin in diameter.

 

Jaager, thank you as well, & I agree with your comments on the model & the rigging. Make do, but she was well made.

 

I did find a couple of alternatives that are quite close, apart from the Ropes Galore option from Mark.

 

This one is close:

This is the bow view of the model. The side photo doesn't really show how dramatically slim she is.

 

Again, thank you everyone for your assistance, advice , comments.

 

[scot marechaux]

I have been working on old pond boots for a while now. my work is to preserve as close to original as I can. boats pre ww2 tended to use cotton, lineal.silk, flax or wire. a good supply for these natural lines is fishing lines. I have been buying a stocking my shop with it for years. ebay is a good source. Etsy and google search will lead you to some. if the boat is old and unrestored I will darken the new looking line with shoe polish or wood stain to make them look old. here is a link of a book I scanned with all pages to build a marblehead yacht but could be scaled down for a starter build.  https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=347828308200014&set=pcb.347828588199986 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Pearse]

Hi Scott

 

Thanks, some of those strings would have been perfect. I did end up getting just the thing via the internet, 2nd time lucky.....see below, the New #1 was the first (& unsuccessful) string order, & the Final was deemed good enough.

 

I see that this is your first post, are you interested in or working on any model yachts?

Posting this, I realised that I never really finished this blog off, so I'll add finished photos below & give a short overview of the completed model repair.

 

Overall photos, in the house of the owners. The model is large, as you can see here.

 

 

And a gorgeous hull shape. I am guessing it's 1880-1910 in age, probably pre-1900, as the hull shape is typical of the 'lead-mine' hulls of the 19C.

 

Bowsprit repair at the stem. I re-wrapped the bowsprit with brass wire, where it had been done to cover/strengthen a previous repair.

 

Sail repairs, the cotton was weak, so I painted the tacks, leeches & heads with diluted PVA, then new stitched rigging using whipping twine. In this photo, I extended further down the sail in white so it's not so obvious, but adds some badly needed strength.

 

Tip of the bowsprit, some of the hooks were missing & were copied. The repairs did not try to o'improve' on previous work that wasn't perfect, I made the decision to leave the model with it's quirks & eccentricities (below the whipping in wire...)

Foredeck, also showing how the headsail sheets were lead. This model would not have been raced, I'm sure of that. Swapping the sheets for th opposite tack would have been slow. She was owned & sailed for the pleasure.

 

As a final note, I believe she was built in Tasmania, as the bowsprit, I believe, was King Billy Pine. For those that know the timber, it's a lovely light-weight timber with an even grain. The hull & deck is Australian Red Cedar, which was shipped to Tassie, & I am guessing that King Billy Pine was much less available in other states than RC was available elsewhere.

 

thanks,

 

 

 

[Keith Black]

 Very nice, Mark. She's a beauty.