Question about Endeavour planking

[Luigi Luigi]

Hello,

 

Here is a question I had about my boat model which represents a test but in no way the official model. It is the Endeavour "Brigantino Inglese a palo" from Corel. I am attaching below  pictures of my second planking and I will explain here the problem I am facing (don't pay attention to the first planking and the wood filler...). I used Chuck's method with the measurements of the different frames to determine the number of listels per frame as well as the taper using the "planking fan". However, as I move through the planking, I am having difficulty bending the listels laterally as Chuck shows but the curvature is getting more and more severe and the listel is breaking (despite soaking in boiling water and ironing). Also, as you can see, the curvature is not pretty at all. 
What could I have done to avoid this? Use stealer or half stealer (if Yes, when)? Use drop planks (if Yes, when)?
Or something else?
Please don't refer me to a document since I have already read them all. I would really like to understand through clear and detailed explanations from a good soul

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OnefW-PhEUiWDiQj98aee_ql8WgJLZ27/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yslLSOgi1FSacwssxxn0HZAPHftK50mr/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RS8uw1yZk8lCm2NTCsOs_w1Th7SuKakt/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F4nVaV-ZKHMeIKsB-yPOQW8AZBI_BVJv/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gZrg75H1pkIPzPiafs286ANxkKokwDhr/view?usp=share_link

 

Thank you very much for your help,
Luigi.

[allanyed]

Ciao Luigi

I cannot access these links.  Is anyone else able to see them?   Please post photos Luigi.

THANK YOU

Allan

[Luigi Luigi]

24 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Ciao Luigi

I cannot access these links.  Is anyone else able to see them?   Please post photos Luigi.

THANK YOU

Allan

 

[Dziadeczek]

Check this (post nr. #4).

Also see this :   

 

Gebhard Kammerlander shows edge bending from ~ 3:15 onwards.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Dziadeczek

[allanyed]

Considering the material that was provided, you have done a credible job on the planking.   I believe the above comment is correct though.   It may just be the photos, but it looks like the wood you are using is not appropriate for a ship model.   It might be too late for this project, but if you want to achieve planking as shown in the videos you mentioned, consider using a wood that has better qualities for ship modeling.  

Allan

[Luigi Luigi]

Ok thanks for the advice on the material, but what do you think about what I said ?

[Gregory]

6 hours ago, Luigi Luigi said:

Please don't refer me to a document since I have already read them all. I would really like to understand through clear and detailed explanations from a good soul

The documents and many examples on this forum ( Look at the Cheerful and Winchelsea build logs ) are the best references we have.   They are as clear and detailed as it gets.

 

The primary concern is  measuring the space available for the number of strakes, and yes, stealer or drop planks might be of help.

 

I know you said you have read everything, but you might take another look at this:

 

https://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/Lining Off your hull for planking.pdf

 

[Luigi Luigi]

Ok thanks, indeed I have already read this document. Do you know where I could place the stealers or drop planks according to the pictures I provided ?

[Gregory]

To make a possible guess I would need to see a picture of the middle of the model.

 

 

The area I have circled viewed straight on.

[mtaylor]

Besides the wood species issue, what I'm seeing may or may not be relevant but the curve at the bow looks pretty sharp and short to me.  

 

As for stealers and drop planks, usually the join is some distance from the bow or stern like a 1/4 to 1/3 of the hull length.  Depends on the length of the hull if working with scale length planks.

[hornet]

This may help. Hull of the Endeavour Replica under construction. 

[Jim Lad]

That's a very helpful image of the replica.

 

John

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, mtaylor said:

usually the join is some distance from the bow or stern like a 1/4 to 1/3 of the hull length.

Hi Mark and Luigi,

  I cannot find any contemporary models or plans with that configuration so far.  What I have found are like the following.  One model example from Preble Hall is below showing a drop strake nearer to the bow.  It is about 7 feet from the rabbet on a 36 gun ship with a length of 137 feet.  The contemporary planking expansion drawing below of Sphinx 1775 shows a drop strake about 8 feet from the rabbet.  Upper plan of the two shown is outboard planking.

Edited May 10, 2023 by allanyed

[Luigi Luigi]

I will send you a picture of the middle of my boat a little later.

However, do we agree that I should use drop planks or stealers on the bow and stern? If I refer to your photo of the Endeavour Allan.

So where should they be located? Above, below the waterline?

I understand that they are usually 7-8 inches from the rabbet on contemporary models.

But how would you proceed in my place?

 

I appreciate your help

Luigi

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Luigi Luigi said:

I understand that they are usually 7-8 inches from the rabbet on contemporary models.

This is not correct.   In the drawing and model in post #13 above, they are about 7 scale feet from the bow.  On the 1:48 scale contemporary model above it is about 1.75" (44mm) from the rabbet.  I have no idea what your scale is, but if it is 1:64 for example, a drop strake would be about 35mm from the rabbet.

 

I am pretty sure there is no way to tell where you will need a stealer aft or drop strake forward until you are doing the planking.  Looking at the models and drawings, they appear to always be one or more strakes below the lower wale.  

 

Regarding the Endeavour photo that Hornet posted above, the drop strakes are mirrored together and are different than anything I had seen before.  It obviously works but is this style a modern convenience or was this done in times contemporary to the original Endeavour or other sailing ships of the 17th-19th centuries.   Below is a stealer at the stern on another contemporary model at Preble Hall.  I highlighted it as the photo I took was not very clear.   It is the Leda or Phoenix 1783.  

 

Allan

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by allanyed

[Luigi Luigi]

Ok so to summarize a bit. I do my planking using Chuck's method by tapering the listels and using the "planning fan" and frame marking. When I see that the curve becomes too pronounced as it is the case in my boat model, then I place a drop plank or a stealer.

I confirm that my model is 1:64 scale, so ideally the stealer should be placed at 35mm from the rabbet.

Is this correct?

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Luigi Luigi said:

so ideally the stealer should be placed at 35mm from the rabbet.

That is correct.   Ideally it will land on a bulkhead so if it is a little forward or aft of 35mm it should still look about right.

 

[Gregory]

Stern stealers do not seem to be very common on contemporary or scratch models.  The builders just widen the planks as necessary.  With kits this is not possible because there is no material for wider planks.  Therefore  one or more stealers will be necessary approaching the steepest.

To approximate a planking expansion for this model, I would need the following information:

The width of your planking stock

The distance from the keel to the top of the sternpost 

The distance from the keel to the bottom of the Wales at a midship bulkhead.  This is an actual measurement, not just the vertical distance. 

Also, the measurement from the keel at the turn of the stem, up to the bottom of the Wales.

 

If this is not clear, I will try to provide a diagram later.

[Luigi Luigi]

Dear @Gregory I really appreciate the information you are asking me which shows that you really want to help me move forward in my thinking.

I think I have understood everything you are asking me, but I prefer to have your diagram so as not to tell you any nonsense.

In the meantime, here is the picture of the middle of the boat that you asked me for.

[Gregory]

Thank you...  It will be  later today before I can get to my graphics tools. 

Meanwhile, what is the width of your planking strips?

[Luigi Luigi]

@Gregory, In the picture, we see first 1x4mm listels, then 3x3 listels (3 in a row) and finally 1x5mm listels all the way down.

[Gregory]

Here is what I have for you so far.

 

Without knowing the measurements at A, B & C I cannot say what kind of stealers and or drop planks you may need.

How many full width planks can you place at B, or will the space divide evenly by 5?  You may need a stealer at A rather than a drop plank, or you may not need any.

 

If C is twice the distance at B you would need 8 stealers to fill the space, as a stealer replaces 1 plank with 2.  A drop plank reduces 2 planks to one.

 

From Mondfeld.

Your stern would look like this if you had to turn 4 strakes into 8 to fill the gap.  ( It would be done without the sharp points )

It may be difficult at this stage of the planking to make these corrections without removing some of the planks

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Gregory

[Luigi Luigi]

Thank you very much for your help. The pictures are a bit misleading. Indeed, 4cm are to be covered at the level of the median frame, that is 8 listels (in B). In A, 3.2cm are to be covered and in C, 3.5cm.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Luigi Luigi

[allanyed]

Very nicely done Gregory!!

[Gregory]

   For the bow, just taper the planks to 4mm. 

 

At the stern you could taper  to 2.5 but it would look better with wider planks closer to 5mm.   This could be done with maybe 2 drop planks.

It would be later today for me to suggest a plan..

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Gregory

[Luigi Luigi]

Ok thanks you for the plan Gregory

[Gregory]

Here are some ideas.  I was messed up on my math for the stern problem.  3.5cm Means you need 7 x 5mm planks to fill the space.

You can do this with a drop plank.

The possible issue with this design, is you need stock that is wider than 5mm.

There are a couple ( or more ) ways you can approach this.

Here are two possibilities.

 

A filler piece like this that you blend in as well as you can.

 

...or like this.  Again, matching up the wood as best you can.

 

I hope this helps.  Gregory

[Luigi Luigi]

First of all, I really want to thank you for the time you spend to explain me in detail my misunderstandings with very clear diagrams and plans.

Now, I take advantage of your kindness to ask you other questions I perfectly understood what I had to do on the spaces that remain to be covered on the model.

But if I take the planking a little higher. On the picture below, do you think that a drop plank is necessary at the red arrow to avoid what happens afterwards, i.e. that the listels take an excessive curvature?

Also, if I understand correctly what you are telling me, at the stern, the listels must keep their entire width, i.e. 5mm for aesthetic reasons. So on the whole area that I circled in red on the picture, the listels must keep their entire width, right? I will solve the problem of space with filler pieces or drop planks to make 2 listels in 1 ?

[Gregory]

It would be hard for me to comment on the drop plank at the bow.  The drop plank helps to keep  the taper from being too profound. You want  to avoid getting the width less than 1/2 the original width.

It looks to me that your tapering looks consistent with a good appearance.

 

For the stern, I agree consistent width looks better, but at this point, no drop plank would give you a plank tapered to 4.375 mm, which i think would look OK

I think it is up to you.  Once it is all finished smooth and oiled, or whatever finish you choose, I think it will look good either way.