Hull and Deck treenails

[Loracs]

Question about treenails. Looking ahead...

 

I have fishing line at 0.23, 0.32 and 0.5mm, color black. 

 

Is it appropriate color for hull and Deck treenails or is it too dark?  what size best (1/64 scale)?

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Loracs

[Jaager]

It depends on objective and the type of model that you are building.

 

On the real ship, the deck fasteners were essentially invisible.  They were counter sunk, given a dose of sticky water resistant material and sealed over with a plug of the same species as the decking,  not end grain, but grain oriented to run parallel with the deck grain.  If you got on your hands and knees, and looked closely, the outer circle would be visible.

 

If it is a fad based modelers convention look,  anything goes.   A curiously popular look  with no basis in reality is plank butts on the same beam in every other strake and fake trunnels at just the butts.   It probably should include rhinestones, balloons, and glitter. 

 

On the contemporary models with hull planking trunnels, the trunnels were likely real fasteners.  I like the idea of mechanical fasteners, but because of the material physical limitations,  the trunnels are over scale.  Plus, it is really tedious to draw thousands of strings of fine bamboo.  On a real ship, the slush or paint would hide the trunnels and spikes. 

[Dr PR]

I think maybe Jaeger is not a fan of treenails (trunnels).

 

The things he says are correct, except perhaps the visibility of the wooden plugs. I served on three ships with wooden decks, and if you looked closely while walking the deck you could just make out where the plugs were (I had exceptional eyesight back then). And I have seen photos of HMS Victory where the trunnels in the deck are visible.

 

But, as he says, every effort was made to hide them on the real ships. If your goal is to make a realistic looking model from a normal (or close) viewing distance, forget the trunnels.

 

But if you are making a cutaway model intended to show how the vessel was built you may want to include trunnels, and take steps to be sure they are visible.

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

I believe the appropriate colour is the one that you, the builder, like the best. 

[allanyed]

Dean's (Jaager)post is spot on.   One rule of thumb stipulated that <the breadth of> any timber that was to be secured had to be no more than three times  the diameter of the trennal, but it seems that the actual application of the rule was more flexible.  In one instance two trennals were used to fasten the ship's side planking where the total sum of he diameters of the trennals was only a quarter of the width of a 12 inch plank.  (Goodwin,  The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War, page 60)   1.5" diameter range should work for the hull  in general so about 0.02" at your 1:64 scale.  For the deck,  half that size would be appropriate in most cases.  If the  fasteners were metal or you enjoy the look of small pox go with black trennals.  If you prefer a realistic look, don't put in treenails of any kind, especially on the deck planks.   If you opt to go with trennals something very subtle such as bamboo that can barely be seen would be appropriate. 

Allan  

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by allanyed

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Jack-in-the-Blue said:

I believe the appropriate colour is the one that you, the builder, like the best. 

If one is intending to accurately depict the prototype in miniature, I believe Jaager's answer is the only correct one. it's not a matter of personal opinion if the object of the exercise is to build a model that looks like the real thing. If metal fastenings were used, as was the case in later times, these would be countersunk and plugged as Jaager describes in order to minimize rusting of the iron fastenings. Depicting fastening locations in an unpainted fully framed model ("Admiralty Board style") can be nicely done by gluing black fishing line of the proper scale diameter into drilled holes, but such fastening "locaters" would never be visible in an actual full-scale vessel. However, if the black fishing line holes are not drilled precisely where the fastenings on the prototype vessel would have to have been placed, the job will result in a worse effect than if the fastenings were left unindicated. 

 

I mention this because the original poster asked, "I have fishing line at 0.23, 0.32 and 0.5mm, color black.  Is it appropriate color for hull and Deck treenails or is it too dark?  what size best (1/64 scale)?" I suppose we just have different definitions of the word "appropriate" in this context. Obviously, a model builder is always free to paint their model any color they wish. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

10 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I suppose we just have different definitions of the word "appropriate" in this context.

 

I agree entirely. "Appropriate" is something of a weasel word, very ambiguous, undefined; it's definitely a matter of opinion what it means. 

 

I suggest that the builder choses his own definition for terms like this for the pragmatic reason that if they canvas opinions, they will get a gazillion different ones and still have to chose which one they prefer. 😄 But I don't know...

[Jaager]

7 hours ago, Dr PR said:

I think maybe Jaeger is not a fan of treenails (trunnels).

Actually, I am potentially quite the fan - under one condition.  That is if the trunnels are used to actually secure the planks - they go thru the plank and into the frame or beam. (But they do make a hash of the frame or beam integrity.)  Hitch chocks on lills take care of any needed clamping.  However,  the cost has become too high for me now.  I have moved from 1:48 to 1:60 - so the diameter is a problem. 

Even the finest brass pins become too large.  Bamboo does not draw all that efficiently in the #76-#80 range and I do not have any pins that small anyway.  (The procedure is to use pins with hitch chocks to fix the planks, then pull the pins, use a broach in the hole and then drive in the Bamboo.)  Finishing out the proper pattern requires a lot of attention and a lot of time.  I have been considering using copper wire instead of brass pins along with Bamboo - since for at least one time period,  half wood and half metal was used.  But I find that the copper offers too much resistance to being drawn by me.  The contemporary French model have examples of brass trunnels.  I think that there is at least one old model where iron was once used - except that now it is a hole with an iron oxide stain in a broad ring in the wood around the hole.  No insult is intended to the fans of trunnels, but it seems seems absurd to me to go to all the work if drilling shallow holes and filling them with faux trunnels.  It might be worth the effort if the trunnels are actually doing a job.  For just looks that are essentially anti-historical - naw.

[Loracs]

Morning all, I truly appreciate your comments everyones.  As a beginner builder, I have so much to learn. This Forum and peoples are such a wealth of knowledge.

 

I think that I will follow the consensus and focus on a clean planking without trunnels.  The effort of having drilling and using bamboo of appropriate size is just daunting... for a very subtle look.  I will consider the blacklines for POF beans in the next model 😉 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Loracs

[Jack-in-the-Blue]

Thinks: I wonder if it's possible to use black fishing line for deck caulking...

[allanyed]

Try making a sample and see how it looks.  Do you, or others here know what the appropriate width of caulking would be at full scale?

Allan

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Jaager said:

Bamboo does not draw all that efficiently in the #76-#80 range

I'm sorry I don't have any more specific information on this, but I recall once reading somewhere that of the several species of bamboo, some are better suited structurally for use as trunnels because they draw to size more cooperatively than others. Somebody reading this may know more and share with us the right species of bamboo to use and where it might be sourced.

 

[Jaager]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

Do you, or others here know what the appropriate width of caulking would be at full scale?

Allan,

I posit something that is probably very unpopular, but likely the case:

The several wooden Old Timers and all of the modern replicas are absolutely dependent on the interest of tourists and the general public.  It is Show Time or Death for them.

The look of the decking - the width and color of the caulking and obvious trunnels probably has more to do with what the public expects to see and what the most economical

commercial products present than actual practice 200-400 years ago.  From the various photos posted here, most look too wide and too constrasty.

 

@Bob Cleek  Since there are a lot of species of Bamboo - that is likely the case.  But we have no control over what is on grocery store endcaps.  I also suspect that the skewer manufacturers

get a different species with every lot.  For it to be predictable - they would probably have to tree-farm their own supply.  It is a grass, so it would be easier than Oak or even Pine.

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Jaager said:

Since there are a lot of species of Bamboo -

Actually I find chopsticks or pieces from bamboo in my sister and brother-in- law's yard to work really well.  The former is easier to find for most people😀

[Bob Cleek]

7 hours ago, Jaager said:

Since there are a lot of species of Bamboo - that is likely the case.  But we have no control over what is on grocery store endcaps.  I also suspect that the skewer manufacturers get a different species with every lot.  For it to be predictable - they would probably have to tree-farm their own supply.  It is a grass, so it would be easier than Oak or even Pine.

Living in the S.F. Bay Area all my life and also having a father who spent his entire working life in the Pacific Rim shipping industry, I have a lot of experience with chopsticks. I've noticed a marked decline in chopstick quality over the last few decades, particularly with the shorter Japanese restaurant version.  Decades ago, Asian restaurants provided diners with reusable split bamboo, and later, plastic, chopsticks. The bamboo chopsticks were made of a medium to dark tan bamboo that was long- and tightly grained. It was quite hard (dent resistant.) Somewhere along the line, somebody invented a router bit that would carve a pair of chopsticks out of a piece of wood, regardless of the grain orientation. The routing leaves the two sticks connected at one end and the user broke them apart to use and they were then discarded. The wood used to make these disposable chopsticks is softer than the bamboo used previously and is of a near-white color. Comparing the two types of chopsticks, the old reusable bamboo chopsticks were much better for modeling purposes. The new routed disposable chopsticks (pictured below) aren't much use at all. 

 

Admitting to being guilty of "thread drift" here, but in the interest of sharing some interesting facts that may be of interest to those who used to rely on the old "hard" chopsticks for modeling stock, I'll share some fascinating facts about today's disposable chopsticks. Recent reliable estimates are that eighty billion pairs of disposable chopsticks are produced each year, destroying up to 20 million 20-year-old trees —that’s enough chopsticks to fill Tiananmen Square 360 times! Japan consumes about 25.5 billion pairs of disposable chopsticks annually, about 200 pairs per capita, but it only produces about 3% of that with the rest coming from China. China exports half of its disposable chopsticks to Japan, South Korea, and the U.S.  Disposable bamboo chopsticks are made in China, but about 45% of the Chinese disposable chopstick consumption is made from poplar (cottonwood,) spruce, and birch, in the U.S.! Greenpeace China estimates that 100 acres of trees need to be felled every 24 hours, 16 to 25 million trees per year, to produce chopsticks. Projections indicate that the current Chinese disposable production rate is unsustainable and will eventually entirely consume vital forest resources. China has recently imposed a 5% tax on disposable chopsticks in what appears to be an unsuccessful attempt to discourage their use. It seems disposable chopsticks are soon to go the way of plastic straws and bags! Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the U.S. is now cutting our forests to produce disposable chopsticks which we are exporting to China! See: GlobalizationPresentationChopsticks.pdf (ubc.ca)

 

 

OLD STYLE REUSABLE BAMBOO CHOPSTICKS:

 

 

INFERIOR MODERN ROUTED DISPOSABLE CHOPSTICKS:

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Do you, or others here know what the appropriate width of caulking would be at full scale?

It will depend upon the thickness of the plank. Carvel plank should be 3/4" thick at a minimum, although an experienced caulker may be able to caulk 1/2" carvel plank. Carvel planks are hung flushly butted edge to edge with the inboard two-thirds to one-half of the plank thickness fully against the adjacent plank or rabbet edge. The outboard two-thirds to one-half half of the plank thickness is slightly beveled so that a narrow "vee" is produced in the plank seam when the two adjacent planks are hung butted against each other. The caulking material is hammered into the "vee" seam sufficiently deep to create a space for the stopping (traditionally pitch or "marine glue") to be poured into the seam. The width of the "vee" at the outboard faces of the planks will vary depending upon the depth of the "vee," but in most cases will be between 1/4" and 3/8" as may be consistent with the thickness of the plank. Stopping was faired to the level of the deck and so would show a black or very dark brown seam of that width. However, if the stopping was poured and stopping standing proud not faired, or repairs were made roughly, a considerable overlap of the "vee" seam edges could occur, leaving a wider dark line of stopping visible with a width of as much as 3/4" to 1". However, this would not be the case on naval vessels and sharp packets which were maintained "Bristol fashion" and had their decks regularly holystoned. 

 

The below is for illustrative purposes only. It depicts "yacht construction" of a small vessel with approximately 3/4" thick planking. The caulking seams on a ship-of-the-line would be correspondingly larger due to the man-o-war's thicker planking, but not in direct proportion. The thicker planking might just as easily be caulked with a "vee" chamfer that was not much deeper than a much less thick plank. The depth of the "vee" need be no more than that required to hold the caulking material to be hammered in and leave a trough for the stopping putty or pitch on top of it. There is little to be gained by a larger "vee" and oversized "vees" would waste caulking material and be more work to caulk.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Jaager]

@Bob Cleek  interesting essay, thanks,

 

Using a hardwood instead of a grass to make chop sticks is foolish.  While it is essentially trash as far as a forest product is concerned, the whole Cottonwood family is plenty useful while it is still on the hoof.

 

If the whole equation for the effect of using Cottonwood instead of a grass for something this frivolous was run, the result would without doubt find that Cottonwood is by far the more expensive option.  It is just that the planet on the whole is subsidizing the difference.   Actually, a chop stick is not complex in shape and is easy to clean for reuse  if the starting material is quality.

 

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

It will depend upon the thickness of the plank. Carvel plank should be 3/4" thick at a minimum, although an experienced caulker may be able to caulk 1/2" carvel plank.

Sorry for the miscommunication Bob, I was referring to deck planking not hull planking. 

Allan

 

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Sorry for the miscommunication Bob, I was referring to deck planking not hull planking. 

Allan

 

It's six of one and a half-dozen of the other. I understood that you were referring to deck planking, but I wasn't able to locate a diagram of a deck planking seam, so I used the hull planking seam diagram to show how the plank seam is beveled. In fact, there's no difference in the caulking seams between a traditionally caulked plank deck and a carvel planked hull. Exactly the same procedure is used, although deck planking can be thicker than hull planking in some cases. Similarly, the seam width at the outboard surface of the plank, be it a hull or a deck plank is the same or nearly so, depending upon the thickness of the planking. I'm not sure if you are aware, but some may not be, that the "stopping" or seam compound, traditionally pitch or tar and later "marine glue" (which isn't a glue but a patent compound of tar and rubber) isn't intended to keep the hull or deck from leaking. That is the driven caulking material's job. The stopping's job is to keep caulking material from getting wet and rotting. The caulking material serves a dual purpose, firstly, to force the planks hard against each other so when they get wet and swell the structure becomes watertight, as with a barrel, and secondly to increase the rigidity of the entire hull structure which results in a great deal stronger the hull and deck structure.

 

As a practical matter, caulked carvel planked deck seams on the outboard face of the planking (the top of decks being outboard as well) will generally be a bit wider than hull seams because deck seams are stopped by paying heated pitch or other stopping material from a paying ladle into the caulked open seam, and so they make deck seams a bit wider to make it easier to pay the stopping. Hull planks, on the other hand, have no need to accommodate paid stopping and can't because they are horizontally oriented rather than vertically oriented like deck planking and so hull seams are puttied, rather than payed and a narrower seam is preferred.

 

Modernly, deck planking is often payed with polysulfide "goop" and so a quarter-inch seam is preferred to permit the cured polysulfide to stretch when the planks dry out and not pull away from the sides of the seam. The rubbery polysulfide needs some "meat" to stretch without pulling away and when it does stretch, the center of the polysulfide in the seam will "narrow" in the same way a rubber band will get thinner when it's stretched. 

 

Narrow modern yacht planking seams paid with polysulfide showing teak wood grain for scale:

 

 

 

Deck seams on HMS Victory:

 

     

 

 

 

 

Deck seams on USS Constitution:

 

 

 

So, the short answer is that deck seams are between a quarter and three-eighths of an inch wide at the outboard ("sided") face of the plank, so they should be scaled accordingly on a model, but with one exception. If the ship is old and her decks have been recalked or, as happened more frequently, repaid, the seam width at the outboard face of the plank may be a bit wider than as built and perhaps unfair along the edges because some wood was removed along with the stopping when the seam was reefed (the old stopping removed.) Reefing irons have sharp edges so that they scrape the seam edges clean to ensure the new stopping sticks well and they have a tendency to "erode" the seam sides if used too aggressively or too many times over a long time. 

 

BELOW: Three different sizes of "store boughten" reefing irons for planks up to about 2.5" thick from a catalog. (Caulking Irons | Ship's Coy. Forge (shipscoyforge.com) Note that the difference in the three reefing irons (AKA: "reefing hooks") is in the thickness of the hook edge which here is probably a selection between a quarter inch and 3/8" inch. Smaller reefing irons for thinner seams are customarily shop-made by heating and bending the tang of an old dull bastard file and grinding the shape of the tang to suit the desired seam width.

 

Caulking Irons | Ship's Coy. Forge (shipscoyforge.com)

Edited September 11, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

13 hours ago, Jaager said:

The look of the decking - the width and color of the caulking and obvious trunnels probably has more to do with what the public expects to see 

Dean,

You make a great point.   I just went through my photos of contemporary models at Preble Hall.  I found only one model that had deck planks that look to have caulking lines.   None of the others appear to have been treated to the application of darkened lines or the use of trunnels.  Going further, I do not recall ever seeing a contemporary or modern model where the hull planks are caulked.  Makes me wonder why this treatment of only deck planks on models ever got started.  

 

Regarding trunnels I can find only find two of the many models at Preble Hall  where the use of trunnels in the hull is obvious, and none of the models have trunnels in the deck planks.   So far I cannot find any pictures of a contemporary model where there are obvious trunnels in the deck planks.  

 

Allan

 

 

[allanyed]

6 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

It's six of one and a half-dozen of the other.

Thanks Bob!

[tmj]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:03 PM, Bob Cleek said:

I'm sorry I don't have any more specific information on this, but I recall once reading somewhere that of the several species of bamboo, some are better suited structurally for use as trunnels because they draw to size more cooperatively than others. Somebody reading this may know more and share with us the right species of bamboo to use and where it might be sourced.

 

I used to mess around with primitive archery, bow building, flint knapping and building arrows that were 'spined' in the 70–100-pound range. I used bamboo shafts purchased on eBay, directly from China. They always worked very well and are very tough. I wonder if bamboo intended for arrows would be a good choice for drawing through a plate in small diameters. I still have quite a few unused shafts. I'm going to give this a try, however. I don't yet have a drawplate. Speaking of such. Does anyone know if Jim Byrnes is ever 'really' going to open up for business again??? 

Below is a bamboo arrow spined for a 90-pound bow. I've never shot this arrow due to the obsidian point, but all of my field points flew really well on the bamboo shafts. I just wanted to show this arrow off. It's the best obsidian point that I ever knapped. 🙂

          

Edited November 4, 2023 by tmj

[Dr PR]

For what it is worth, on the WWII era Cleveland class cruisers the deck planks were 4 inches (102 mm) wide and 2 inches (50.8 mm) thick. The upper vertical edges of the planks were beveled 3/32 inch (2.4 mm) at the top, tapering down 1 inch (25.4 mm). The lower 1 inch was vertical. When the planks were butted together the lower faces touched, leaving a 3/16" gap (4.76 mm) at the upper surface. The "V" shaped gap was caulked with oakum down to a depth of 1/2" (12.7 mm) from the top surface. The remaining gap was then filled with "an approved black marine glue."

 

If we assume that this was a typical traditional method for caulking deck planks, a 3/16 inch (0.1875 inch, 4.8 mm) gap will be:

 

1:24      0.008 inch       0.2 mm

1:35      0.005 inch       0.14 mm

1:48      0.004 inch       0.1 mm

1:64      0.003 inch       0.07 mm

1:96      0.002 inch       0.05 mm

1:200    0.0009 inch     0.02 mm

1:350    0.0005 inch     0.01 mm

 

I used this idea to caulk the seams of the deck on my 1:48 build using 0.003 inch (0.07 mm) black construction paper. This worked nicely in my opinion. But it is an opinion - that well caulked decks do look good on some models. But I think the exaggerated caulking and planking on 1:200 and 1:350 models looks pretty strange.

 

I served on three ships with wooden (teak) decks while in the Navy, including two flagships. The decks were holystoned and bleached, and maintained in excellent condition. The deck seams were quite visible, even in shipyard photos taken from hundreds of feet away. The trenails or plugs over the deck bolts were barely visible when standing on the deck, and totally invisible in photos.

 

I plan someday to build a 1:96 model of a cruiser with wooden decks that I served on. The planks will be 0.04 inch (1.05 mm) wide, and the caulking should be about 0.002 inch (0.05 mm) wide (thinner than a sheet of ordinary printer paper). I think I will hate that planking job!

 

****

 

I would be cautious about trying to use fishing line or thin plastic sheets between planks for caulking. I experimented with using a strip of black plastic garbage bag between planks for caulking with poor results. It was 0.0005 inch (0.127 mm) thick. The glue I used didn't hold the plastic to the wood. When I scraped/sanded the deck after caulking the plastic pulled out of the gap between planks. I'm sure the same thing would happen with fishing line.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dr PR