Cpt_Haddock Posted September 16, 2023 Share #1 Posted September 16, 2023 I have had this kit for two years - time to start. Got the John McKay book from UK this week. To bad - the casting quality... Reading the log from Michael Old Collingwood, md1400cs, Bill Morrison and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snug Harbor Johnny Posted September 16, 2023 Share #2 Posted September 16, 2023 I've read about the lessened casting quality in MSW logs. I suppose one could spend the better part of a year going over each piece with tiny files and dental bits in a variable-speed rotary tool to 'clean them up' considerably. Then after some cerium oxide polishing, one could get them gold electro-plated (the platers might have to first nickel plate). Now THAT would really 'pimp' your model quite a bit, but at a considerable cost - possibly nearly that of the kit itself. But if you're going to spend the next three years doing a super job on this historic ship (some say the costs of building it were a significant factor in causing the English Civil War), I'd consider it. 2nd option might be to try and locate a 'classic' old Sergal kit that has the much better yellow-metal castings (which would plate better). Using the best of all the materials and plans could be helpful in the long run. Hmmmm, just had a thought ... If the SoS was the 'ship that caused the English Civil War', then the figurehead casting of a mounted King vanquishing another King might be taken (in hindsight) as Charles the vanquishing himself, as his head eventually 'rolled' when Cromwell had Charles beheaded. I see you're in Sweden, so am supposing that many there have done the Vasa - (I'd love to visit the Vasa museum some day, and also see the Oseberg ship - among other excellent Viking artifacts ... yeah - smorgasbords and saunas might be nice to do as well, I mean, as long as I was there.) The Sovereign of the Seas is a worthy project indeed. Good luck ! Old Collingwood, Bill Morrison, Archi and 1 other 4 Quote Completed builds: Khufu Solar Barge - 1:72 Woody Joe Current project(s): Gorch Fock restoration 1:100, Billing Wasa (bust) - 1:100 Billings, Great Harry (bust) 1:88 ex. Sergal 1:65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandpaPhil Posted September 17, 2023 Share #3 Posted September 17, 2023 Have you thought about carving replacement carvings yourself? allanyed and Old Collingwood 2 Quote Building: 1:64 HMS Revenge (Victory Models plans) 1:64 Cat Esther (17th Century Dutch Merchant Ships) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS Posted September 17, 2023 Share #4 Posted September 17, 2023 Greeting from another HMS Sovereign of the Seas builder. Best wishes on a successful build of one of the most challenging ship models ever! 👍 Old Collingwood and md1400cs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted September 19, 2023 Share #5 Posted September 19, 2023 Using the well researched book by McKay is a brilliant move. Allan Old Collingwood and Bill Morrison 2 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md1400cs Posted September 23, 2023 Share #6 Posted September 23, 2023 (edited) Hi, Just getting back to looking at logs - been away from this hobby and dropping by for several months - Good luck with your new SotSeas project. As mentioned above the castings of the current product are much less detailed than from the vintage edition from Sergal (those 600+ bits were solid bronze). I have been very vocal about this in my dormant log - that I will get back to soon - Will follow your new project with interest as well (my previous build was the Vasa) PS: loved the museum - visited twice the last time was in 2018 Regards, Edited September 23, 2023 by md1400cs Bill Morrison and Old Collingwood 2 Quote Michael Current build : Sovereign of the Seas 1/78 Sergal Under the table: Golden Hind - C Mamoli Oseberg - Billings 720 - Drakkar - Amati Completed: Santa Maria-Mantua -- Vasa-Corel - Santisima Trinidad cross section OcCre 1/90th Gallery : Santa Maria - Vasa - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted November 11, 2023 Author Share #7 Posted November 11, 2023 Thanks for comments, pep-talk and pieces of advice. I liked and much appreciate the McKay book, I like that is it "technical" though not "maybe 100% correct" - some books I read about Wasa was 2% ship tech and 98% about was how the timber was imported and what kind of silverware was used etc. I guess the Sots also could have ended as Wasa as she was built as a show-off piece. They have found/investigated the Wasa sister ship "Äpplet 1629" this autumn. Read that Pett associate Francis Sheldon was ordered to Sweden to build "Kronan" - a ship a lot like the Sots. Sheldon aslo built the Äpplet 1663. Read that there was 8 ships called Vasa. 9 ships called Royal Sovereign. But only one Sovereign of the sea, and still... GrandpaPhil, Archi and Bill Morrison 3 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share #8 Posted November 15, 2023 I have bought two new books: I have an idea of - in contrast to md1400cs - maybe build two boats from one kit. The idea is to build some sort of scratch build using the kit-frames to bend planks (SotS) and modify the kit discs to build the Swedish Kronan. I have seen many amazing version of SotS, and shipwright (Bill Short) carvings - wow! Doris: https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=177&t=43575&hilit=1637&sid=2d00756880ad630cc97c5745201fb29f&start=930 Wolfgang Rotter: https://schifferlbauer.com/seite40.html . GrandpaPhil, Bill Morrison, Ondras71 and 1 other 4 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted December 6, 2023 Author Share #9 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) Hello! Yet another book, I was pretty mislead by the book by Konstams "Sovereigns of the Sea". I though like the book and it opened my eyes concerning war ships and 1600-1700th century Europe. I have now finally got Septhons "Sovereign of the Seas" - it looks nice! I have not come to any conclusion more than "bashing". I will read a little more and try to figure out how to proceed and still enjoy building some ship in the end. So member Ulises Victoria gave up.. I understand the feeling. I have put the green box somewhere I cannot see it and focus on bending wooden strips in the spare part of the kit. More about that later. I do get energy from reading about the 1700th century history that SotS and all this has opened up for me. I have found a interesting PhD thesis from Southampton University by Juan-Pablo Olaberria "Ship design-knowledge in early modern Europe: Royal yachts and the shared knowledge of ship-designers and common shipwrights." from 2018 that I found on-line. In the PhD text there is the description of building frame-first vs Shell-first. Shell-first was adding timber inside after the planking was "done" - frame-first was adding planking on frames as most (?) model boat kits, i guess. Has anyone build a shell-first model? The design was back then not scientific and the picture depicts a hull from the shape of a fish. I read the book about Kronan 1668 by Einarsson but I did not get any new technical info, (I did get a picture of a Penis from deceased crew member buried in the mud 1672 when the ship was blown up by Danes). Thanks Einarsson... I have to go to Kalmar and see at the museum - try to get more info on-site. Maybe not now, -12 C outside today. SotS: I am thinking of adding a mizzen as on Prince (Bonaventura). Raising the ship and moving the halfdeck Using the frame-holes to bend wood and build a "skeleton" type of framing. Use the kit frames to build the Kronan. The Kronan was more narrow but I do not get the scaling of Sergals model. 16m outside width? I have seen 14.6m. Keel length 43m? 127" is some 38m. Round tuck on both ships. the bow sprit in Sergal is longer than most other, and the stern is very steep: I have bend the stem and apron and started on the frames: I used some old plastic bin to lead steam in a isolated tube with wooden strips inside to get damp effect. Edited January 10 by Cpt_Haddock Bill Morrison, md1400cs, Archi and 1 other 4 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted December 6, 2023 Author Share #10 Posted December 6, 2023 Added a picture of trying compass wood for stem. I used damp bending instead: Picture of Einarssons "Regalskeppet Kronan" book and a first frame part: Bill Morrison, Baker, GrandpaPhil and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted January 10 Author Share #11 Posted January 10 (edited) One step forward and two steps back. Now I have read the Septhon book and I must say it is stuck with information but as a builder I am still confused but on a higher level. I have come to the conclusion that the Sergel kit is not that bad after all - things considered. And I admire and thank McKay for all the illustrations - you can say that Septhon had very few of that kind - though nice photos and collections of drawings. Sometimes a picture says more than words. And searching internet I normally end up here on this forum - (the forum in some slavic language have lots of information but beyond my skills). I am working with altering the stern from extreme frame and aft. I try to use the Fincham drawings to re-shape the kit to a round-tuck one. I have even tried to use mashed potatoes to shape the stern but .. well I had to try. I did not work - surprise - so I now use plates of plastic foam and metal wires. Things I wondering about: The decks - why this steps in McKay? The deck lines were made flatter somewhere down the line (maybe 1660). But many models have this step in gun deck aft as the Prince in some picture. The Wasa had guns below gun deck aft and I have decided to skip this lower part i.e. guns with Square formed ports. I will try to have old-fashion curved decks - flush decks. The Sergal kit has only these lowest four and not the round shaped above - compare with all three deck ports in Culvers model. Edited January 10 by Cpt_Haddock md1400cs, Bill Morrison, Archi and 1 other 4 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted January 10 Author Share #12 Posted January 10 More things: I found some interesting reading and evidence of a ship rebuild in 1660 from square to round (Niklas Eriksson), and that the Prince was rebuild this way just before SotS was created. It is interesting with all these variants: Round stern like Naseby half circular Square stern dutch type (like Wasa) McKay arrow like stern (as Royal Louis 1668) Some have this almost elliptical stern or square with rounded edges and Sergals oval tube shaped stern with different versions of the lower part ... and this also influence on the lower gun ports and that they sometimes is way below the gun deck GrandpaPhil, Bill Morrison and Archi 3 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md1400cs Posted January 11 Share #13 Posted January 11 Nice well researched updates. Re: Doris her SotS is, in my opinion, by far the most beautiful example. AND she hand made all of the hundreds of gold decorative bits as well. I think that she has a log here at MSW?? Archi, SighingDutchman and Bill Morrison 3 Quote Michael Current build : Sovereign of the Seas 1/78 Sergal Under the table: Golden Hind - C Mamoli Oseberg - Billings 720 - Drakkar - Amati Completed: Santa Maria-Mantua -- Vasa-Corel - Santisima Trinidad cross section OcCre 1/90th Gallery : Santa Maria - Vasa - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted January 20 Author Share #14 Posted January 20 Totally agree - very hard to even come close to that amount of work and artistry. That is a bit why I will try to do a little different approach. When to movie for "the hitchhiker guide to the galaxy" by Douglas Adams come there was many discussions about the "real" story and so on. The real story from the books - but the story in the books came from a mix of radio-episodes that did not add up to that was printed - I feel a bit like that after reading about this ship. Building Wasa was so different - the ship is there to visit. For example - I am thinking of azur blue instead of Stockholm tar black and maybe modify the statues of Neptune/Apollo and the other "god of winds" figure - and make Diana/Nike bigger - I will see. I have decided the angle of the stern post the rake: I am trying to get the shape of the aft, I had to cut of the kit stern post - it was not straight Ondras71, Bill Morrison, Archi and 1 other 4 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted January 22 Author Share #15 Posted January 22 I have modified the scale to 1:72 - I think it will be better. Recommend naval ship construction texts via Academia.edu, for example: Archi, Bill Morrison and GrandpaPhil 3 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted January 30 Author Share #16 Posted January 30 Some notes from the Book from James Septhon and Sergals kit: I will try to keep the gun ports as J.S. and compared to Sergal (S) i.e. 9,9mm/10,6mm/11.3mm for 2'-4", 2'-6" and 2'-8" for each deck - S has the same size for all decks. I think it will be worth the extra work for this in the end. The keel was tapered and the rudder the other way around - I do not think I will bother with tapering at all. J.S has ports for all decks and three ports for the beakhead bulkhead (not shown in McKay) - I had some trouble getting the aft but after looking at the Culver model I think I got a solution. the three decks is divided in equal parts (33%). I think I have a solution for the aft but still no design for the galleries. I found the Danish ship Sophia Amalia 1650 that is really a look a like built by a English James Robbins and a drawing from Van Velde show similar decoration along the sides as SotS (not quite as the museum model in the picture). md1400cs, Bill Morrison, Archi and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted February 2 Author Share #17 Posted February 2 Here is a van Velde drawing of the Danish ship, a quick glance and it looks like the SotS. The fore castle is slightly lower and lower gun deck flat as SotS after the rebuild 1659-60. Archi, Pitan, GrandpaPhil and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted February 2 Share #18 Posted February 2 5 hours ago, Cpt_Haddock said: Here is a van Velde drawing of the Danish ship Is there some camera distortion in that last image? The water line looks bowed to my eye. Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted February 6 Author Share #19 Posted February 6 I have search so many 1700th ship pictures so I have forgotten were that came from, the other is from: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1020070/hull-of-a-three-decker-drawing-van-de-velde/ - you can zoom in and see details. Ran in to some problems with the framing. I was planning to use the Sergal kit frame 4-1 as is, but the difference Fincham (I use a Mr Douglas drawing from 1901), McKay and Sergal is to big. The kit is more wedge-shape than the other: GrandpaPhil, Bill Morrison and Archi 3 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted February 6 Author Share #20 Posted February 6 Here is where I found some of the pictures: https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/4187-danish-flagships-form-the-17th-mega-mix/ looks like a scanned book picture Bill Morrison 1 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted April 10 Author Share #21 Posted April 10 slow progress but some new pictures from work on the keel and deadwood. I have made an rig around the keel for the frames. GrandpaPhil, Archi, ccoyle and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Haddock Posted June 24 Author Share #22 Posted June 24 Hello, going slow now but keel is done and lodging knee on its way. BLACK VIKING, Archi, GrandpaPhil and 2 others 5 Quote This is the way /Fredrik Current: Sots 1637 Finished: Wasa Cannon port Wasa Billing boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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